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Engine gurus? Tired of Fighting a 2.0
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SGKent Premium Member
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 6:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine gurus? Tired of Fighting a 2.0 Reply with quote

skills@eurocarsplus wrote:
liquidplumber wrote:


But. I do appreciate the words of encouragement from others.


you'll get there. none of us want to see anyone fail. just know that no matter what you do...engine, door seals, rust work every...inch...will...fight.

we've all been there. ALL of us are stupid enough to do it more than once Laughing

fixed it for you Don Smile
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2021 5:11 am    Post subject: Re: Engine gurus? Tired of Fighting a 2.0 Reply with quote

Like I said before, Ive been running Weber 40s for a LONG time, and Ive never seen or heard of that needle seat issue. I honestly didnt even know the seat was removeable.

If it were me, as soon as I saw that, I wouldve called John. I have no idea what kind of passages that seat regulates. The 50 idle jets should be just about right for your application.

Unfortunately the easiest test for your issue is pretty expensive.....swap the carbs for known good ones. Maybe you can talk to John about trying a new pair and if those work, he keeps your current set?
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2021 5:35 am    Post subject: Re: Engine gurus? Tired of Fighting a 2.0 Reply with quote

skills@eurocarsplus wrote:
liquidplumber wrote:


But. I do appreciate the words of encouragement from others.


you'll get there. none of us want to see anyone fail. just know that no matter what you do...engine, door seals, rust work every...inch...will...fight.

we've all been there. some of us are stupid enough to do it more than once Laughing


You’re dead on. Every little grommet, clip or widget that is not original seems to require some kind of arts and crafts to make it kinda sorta fit.

Like those freakin’ anti rattle pin springs in drum brakes. The new pins are too short...even the longer version. The tip on the original pins is too wide to fit the hole in the new round retainers. It’s a fucking nail...they just had to make it the right length. So I’m filing the original pins with the new retainer things until they fit. Every little fucking thing is like this.

The Chinese could fuck up a paperweight unless you use one of their pistons. They could fuck up an anchor too...unless you buy one of their crankshafts.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2021 5:38 am    Post subject: Re: Engine gurus? Tired of Fighting a 2.0 Reply with quote

RalphWiggam wrote:
Like I said before, Ive been running Weber 40s for a LONG time, and Ive never seen or heard of that needle seat issue. I honestly didnt even know the seat was removeable.

If it were me, as soon as I saw that, I wouldve called John. I have no idea what kind of passages that seat regulates. The 50 idle jets should be just about right for your application.

Unfortunately the easiest test for your issue is pretty expensive.....swap the carbs for known good ones. Maybe you can talk to John about trying a new pair and if those work, he keeps your current set?


I was thinking that too. I had the original dual carbs rebuilt and they are on the engine now. But I was considering putting on my single Progressive and a “known-to-work” mechanical advance distributor just for startup and break in.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2021 6:15 am    Post subject: Re: Engine gurus? Tired of Fighting a 2.0 Reply with quote

orwell84 wrote:
RalphWiggam wrote:
Like I said before, Ive been running Weber 40s for a LONG time, and Ive never seen or heard of that needle seat issue. I honestly didnt even know the seat was removeable.

If it were me, as soon as I saw that, I wouldve called John. I have no idea what kind of passages that seat regulates. The 50 idle jets should be just about right for your application.

Unfortunately the easiest test for your issue is pretty expensive.....swap the carbs for known good ones. Maybe you can talk to John about trying a new pair and if those work, he keeps your current set?


I was thinking that too. I had the original dual carbs rebuilt and they are on the engine now. But I was considering putting on my single Progressive and a “known-to-work” mechanical advance distributor just for startup and break in.


Yeah you dont want to be trying to get things to work during break in.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:48 am    Post subject: Re: Engine gurus? Tired of Fighting a 2.0 Reply with quote

orwell84 wrote:
skills@eurocarsplus wrote:
liquidplumber wrote:


But. I do appreciate the words of encouragement from others.


you'll get there. none of us want to see anyone fail. just know that no matter what you do...engine, door seals, rust work every...inch...will...fight.

we've all been there. some of us are stupid enough to do it more than once Laughing


You’re dead on. Every little grommet, clip or widget that is not original seems to require some kind of arts and crafts to make it kinda sorta fit.

Like those freakin’ anti rattle pin springs in drum brakes. The new pins are too short...even the longer version. The tip on the original pins is too wide to fit the hole in the new round retainers. It’s a fucking nail...they just had to make it the right length. So I’m filing the original pins with the new retainer things until they fit. Every little fucking thing is like this.

The Chinese could fuck up a paperweight unless you use one of their pistons. They could fuck up an anchor too...unless you buy one of their crankshafts.


And this STILL goes back to what I said yesterday. Again.....not shielding the vendors. As stated ....there are too many vendors that know that what they are selling is either not great and needs work to work (yet their only option is to sell nothing?).....or are selling something that is outright non functional ...as Aeromech noted.

However......sorry...... As an industry.....the aftermarket auto parts industry.... I have not seen ANY parts manufactured in the USA (maybe a few...but very few).....that are really any better than what's coming out of China.

Let me put a finer point on that last statement. Yep...sure....you may look at ....for example.....a cast iron brake master cylinder casting coming from China that looks like crap, has casting defects and flashing....poor dimensions and requires hours of work to get it functional.

And....but......just as commonly I run into the same part....proudly stating....."Made in the USA"......that looks great, has better metal (maybe)......is better packaged....seems to have better tolerances.....and YET.... is just as non-functional without hours of work......or maybe it is functional but dies in 2 months because of shitty rubber compounds. Same sh*t different reason.

It makes no difference where its made these days. I can tell you horror stories about issues in US plants I go into.

The common denominator is money. ......$ .....or lack therof.

Its not ALL just an ethics thing....

Yes....everything is a freaking arts and crafts project as you stated. Every little part.

And yet.....here is my 2012 Golf with 214,000+ miles on it this week with its factory CV boots...leak free....with made in China stamped on the rubber parts. What gives? .....$....is what gives.

The parts you are buying....all of these parts.....are made for a limited run market. We are not talking about making repop or replacement parts for a field of a million vehicles under construction like new cars coming off the line at a steady rate. We are not even talking about hundreds of thousands.
We are probably not even talking about 100,000 vehicles.

At best....very best...we are talking about 10's of thousands of car at best.

And yet.....you have "private"....American, Chinese, English and German companies that can and do make high end racing or luxury parts that are top notch....full fit and function.... for limited markets in the hundreds or low thousands of vehicles. The difference is that these parts are usually $$$$......instead of $$.

Are you willing or able to spend the money that top notch full functioning parts cost.....when produced by "boutique" manufacturers.....?......I seriously doubt it.

I cant address the question of why a vendor would continue to sell something that they KNOW is 100% non-functional ....like the brake drum that Areomech mentioned. Thats an ethics question.

I can "kind of" address why a manufacturer in either China or the US or even Germany......may produce a functional part that is nowhere near OEM quality.....and needs work to function.
Its because some company...their client.... approached them.....and said....."I want this part.....at this pitiful low cost.....in this miniscule quantity"..... Rolling Eyes

I have been in companies for some of those conversations. It starts out like:

MFG: Cannot be done for that low of cost.....PER UNIT.....without a much higher quantity.

Client: Then.....so you are saying you cannot make anything?

MFG: Uh....no....we are saying that cannot make that part for that low of a cost PER UNIT....without a larger total investment in tooling and quality control. To get the low cost PER UNIT you want.....at useful quality level....you need to make more total parts to bury the cost in.

Client: Not going to happen. We have a limited market. It would take a decade to sell all of the parts to pay for the tooling and QC.

Client: So.... what kind of tooling and QC quality CAN you give us if we only want to make X number of parts?

MFG: Well.....this is all we can do. .......and the company commissioning these heinous quality parts.....says.
Client: ....uh....ok....we will work with that.

The actual manufacturer SHOULD say hell no!. Instead......they say "ok....just dont put our name on the box".

Sometimes this is a good German, US or Mexican manufacturer.....who decides that in order to hit this cost point...they have to offload this production of this limited run...crap quality part.....to their assembly line with the cheapest labor.....which might be India, China or Viet Nam.

You live in a world where money is the common denominator. GOOD production quality costs the exact same amount whether you are building 100 parts or 1 million parts. Its all in the tooling. The materials and labor are the only negotiable part.

Making an AFFORDABLE, good quality, functional part......comes down to simply what you are dividing that initial outlay cost by. How many parts are you willing to make?

We complain that it seems every little part is an "arts and crafts" project.

That cuts both ways. The small companies that ARE making a quality functional part for a very small market....without the benefit of large tool, die and material outlay......are really making those parts by largely the same EXACT outlay of "arts and crafts" time, effort and attention ....that you would have to invest to make a lesser, crappier part function. That costs $$$$ per part that must be charged.... if the small boutique company is going to stay in business at all.

Too many times.....the consumer is not willing to pay those real costs.

As I said.....I cannot address the poor ethics. But the main reason why parts companies like EMPI and others keep producing and selling crap parts.....is because we....us....you.....their market.....keeps buying them.

Its also why.....for example.....I routinely stick my proverbial foot in peoples ass here on the forums....when I see people asking "where can I buy good cheap calipers or remans".....and I say....."you would be better off buying a kit and rebuilding your own"......I hear back....no time, no tools, no desire, scared.
I post links to excellent kits for $$. NO!
I post links to full factory level resto calipers (like PMB performance does at $$$ each). HELL NO!
I took the time to write a 40+ page how to....with 200 pictures...links...part numbers....chemicals....tools of how to rebuild your own.

NAH....just looking for some cheap, easy calipers. Rolling Eyes

Knowing all of this. I shake my head.....and have less and less sympathy.

And still I say.....if you want to drive these cars....do as much of your own work as possible...quit getting in a hurry.....learn something new....and dont give up!
Wink

Sorry for the rant. Ray
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine gurus? Tired of Fighting a 2.0 Reply with quote

Ray…. Unfortunately and sadly, you’re exactly right. In the end, the issues I’m having seem to be because I kinda expected “plug and play” out of what I’ve bought. I will say that I haven’t always bought the most expensive stuff I could get, but I don’t shop by price either. I have been expecting decent quality… not boutique.. but decent.
It seems as tho there’s boutique and crap And the crap comes in all different names and price ranges.

If I’m being perfectly honest about it, I’ve sunk about all I care to sink into it at this point. I’m around 15k and that’s only materials. No labor. Me and my father have done it all. We saved the body by reworking it when I first got the bus as a rust bucket and painted it then… it needs reworking again now and fresh paint. So I have all that to do again once it’s running and driving.
I think about the “cool bus bro” comment that another person made and he was right. It’s a lot of work and effort just for that… and you’re still driving a vehicle with no creature comforts at all with very little going for it other than the cool factor. This has been a tough week for me as I felt like I was really getting close….. and my Wagenswest suspension will be coming soon. I was excited thinking it would be early fall and I’d be running….. and now I’m debating very basic part choices all over again and possibly yanking the engine for the 3rd time. Ugh.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine gurus? Tired of Fighting a 2.0 Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:


However......sorry...... As an industry.....the aftermarket auto parts industry.... I have not seen ANY parts manufactured in the USA (maybe a few...but very few).....that are really any better than what's coming out of China.



This hits home for me. I just bought a $70 camshaft gear from what I was told was one of the best vendors and not only does it have casting flash, it isn't even the same size as the original it is replacing. Made in the USA RIP.

I had a similar problem with a "restored" carb for my bug, I had to change a jet the get it to work right. The jet it came with was mangled.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2021 2:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine gurus? Tired of Fighting a 2.0 Reply with quote

Liquid plumber...great handle by the way! Very Happy ....and fiddlestyx...lot to unpack in that handle too!

My point...like the others is not to discourage you, Do not give up. Take a break,...think it through...Sketch it out.

As for US made parts....an example that is right on the line that you kind of mentioned and is one of the many teeth-gnashing issues of the "Made in the USA" issue.

Example...Webcam camshafts. They embody almost all of the "made in USA" ...."goodness" we all want to believe in....all but one or two little details that occasionally make them as much of an ass kicking as any full Chinesium-carbide/swiss cheese alloy part in the world

They generally have great metallurgy, nice hardening, good profiles, good matching lifter technology....and are a little more expensive and worth the cost....if all of that is good.

But toss in a detail like poor deburring on the thrust flange...and the destruction it can cause...is just as bad as what an obviously poorly made foreign part can cause. Just as much. And causes just as much rework.....for an otherwise 98% BETTER part.

The problem that people who are not in manufacturing do not understand about WHY this shit is happening is NOT that it is a lack of skilled employees (thats a minor issue).

Its a management/owner and sometimes investor function.....purely. But it is caused by management chasing Chinese/Asian/Third world methodology and influence.....multiplied and driven by the stupidity and affluent cheapness of the American consumer.

I saw this REALLY happening starting around 1999 to 2004. I personally know business OWNERS whose company produced stellar products for years.

As Asian competition for the same parts market built for less (even if they are lower quality)...started cutting in on their market share.....they had to look for ways to cut cost....or literally go out of business.

So....as old hands with higher pay retired...they replaced them with simply cheaper employees. Some companies I cannot mention...were so strapped....they had to close their doors for three months simply to legally drive away all the old employees so they could hire back a cheaper work force at half the price.

These guys...these business owners.....are not evil. They are not the devil. They are honest guys with a FAMILY business. Every cent they have is tied up in it. They spent their life working to build business. Some of these businesses have millions in throughput...a couple hundred employees....and in reality the owner makes about $125k a year in free and clear salary. This is not a wall street level company. They are trying not to lose everything and to survive.

They are simply naive ....about the detail level of manufacturing. They just own the plant...many are second generation and have never done the manufacturing themselves. Many thought that having the good machines and materials....and engineering plans etc....would still allow even a mediocre workforce to make a quality product. They were wrong.

And...like in the case of the improperly deburred thrust face on the cam....again...its because management...is not driving the training and the QC...to make sure this does not happen.

You cannot ever blame a lazy or unskilled line employee...because its managements job...to either train, discipline or fire that employee...before accepting shitty work.

The other more important question....is why they had any problems selling their obviously better product in the face of Chinesium Cheapness....for reasonable money.

Its because us...you...we...cheap fuckers...were not willing to spend the money for it.
Through the 90's this country as a consumer market has become obsessed with cheap. We would rather buy a cheaper one five times than buy a better one ONCE. Its why there are an endless variety of auto parts chains....and in cities like mine their numbers rival the numbers of fast food restaurants.

Its just like playing the slots in Vegas. We as the consumer figure...there must be some good ones in all of this.... pile of parts. Its cheap enough that I will roll the dice/take a spin.....and heck.....what does it matter if it does not last 100k miles like the expensive dealer part? My car has 150k miles on it and its disposable anyway....RIGHT?

The quality of the parts market we have....is exactly where WE as the consumer...drove it to be.

Last part of my rant.....don't ever make the statement to me...."good union made product".

I no longer do business with ANY union companies as of about 7 years. Outside of a few professional unions like the aerospace machinist unions....every single union shop I have been in across about a dozen industries...has been lazy, overpaid and producing shit.

Unions are good for workers. Thats good. But you cannot EVER allow the workers to also not simultaneously be good for the product and the company that employs them. Then it becomes parasitic to quality.

Hang in there man!

Ray
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2021 4:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine gurus? Tired of Fighting a 2.0 Reply with quote

My experience with both my 1971 deluxe sunroof and my 1977 deluxe sunroof is that they are journey and not a destination.

Right now we are all under stress because of the SARS-2 thing and all the political issues. Take a break from the bus and follow the suggestions I made. See where it takes you.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2021 4:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine gurus? Tired of Fighting a 2.0 Reply with quote

liquidplumber wrote:
... I’m around 15k and that’s only materials. No labor. Me and my father have done it all. We saved the body by reworking it when I first got the bus as a rust bucket and painted it then… it needs reworking again now and fresh paint. So I have all that to do again once it’s running and driving.
I think about the “cool bus bro” comment that another person made and he was right. It’s a lot of work and effort just for that… and you’re still driving a vehicle with no creature comforts at all with very little going for it other than the cool factor. ...


Life's too short IMHO to get too particular with these vehicles. I'd get the thing running and drive it. Get a year of "cool bus, bro" under your belt and then worry about refreshing paint and body.
Our '76 isn't a beauty queen but we've had a blast with it. We've fitted a diesel heater, solar, LEDs, and fixed any "must haves" such as a failing distributor. Things that are FUN for us to do.
Get the thing running and drive it. Fix things that are quick and easy and bring the love back.
Good luck. You'll get it going, you've come this far for a reason.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2021 5:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine gurus? Tired of Fighting a 2.0 Reply with quote

liquidplumber wrote:
Timing running around 8° (it seems to jump around a bit…. but stays within the 6-10 range).


That’s more scatter than I’d like on a new build. What’s it like at full mechanical advice?
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine gurus? Tired of Fighting a 2.0 Reply with quote

I’m not going to write a long post.

Recently purchased shift coupler. Same shift coupler that’s used on bugs, buses, you name it. The bore size of what slides over the hockey stick wasn’t even close to being a snug fit. It wobbled all over the place. Now, if you’re going to make a bunch of these shift couplers, how hard is it to get just that one dimension right? I threw it in the trash. There are other options for this part but the cost goes from say $8 to $25. In the future I’ll spend the $25.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 6:26 am    Post subject: Re: Engine gurus? Tired of Fighting a 2.0 Reply with quote

aeromech wrote:
... It wobbled all over the place ...

That’s interesting. I recently bought the $25 heavy duty one with the urethane inserts and had to ream it out to get it to fit. But once I got it to fit it is really nice!
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 8:02 am    Post subject: Re: Engine gurus? Tired of Fighting a 2.0 Reply with quote

I recently did the shift coupler as well. I can’t remember whether it came from Jbugs or CIP. I bought the most expensive one they had as that is my common practice. More expensive=better right??? 🤔

with no modifications it fit perfectly. At least I got lucky with that one. All I remember about it was that it was red
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 7:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine gurus? Tired of Fighting a 2.0 Reply with quote

Didn’t read through all of the replies, but are you sure you put the distributor gear in properly? One tooth off will change your timing. Ratwell has a post about it on his website. Also make sure the distributor dog isn’t backward. Had that issue with a rebuilt distributor, as well as it missing the washers. As, stated above these pertronix distributors and aftermarket items are usually assembled in poor environments and need to be taken apart and cleaned. Sad, I know. I’d check the distributor gear though. If it’s off one tooth, I think it changes timing by 30 degrees. Might be misremembering. Luckily haven’t had that issue
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 8:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine gurus? Tired of Fighting a 2.0 Reply with quote

Just to piggy back off my last post. I say advance or retard the timing and go see if that does anything and then go from there. I’d go back to points. At least you would be able to verify the gap and adjust. Fuel, spark, air. You’ll get it. It takes some finessing, but you’ll get there brother.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 9:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine gurus? Tired of Fighting a 2.0 Reply with quote

Actually the problem I had with the fancy Pertronics distributor was the timing was bouncing all over the place. Engine ran like crap. When you connect a stroboscopic timing light, point it at the crank pulley, advance the throttle, you should see a fairly smooth change in timing. In my case it wasn’t smooth at all.

Installing Glenn’s vintage Bosch centrifugal advance distributor which had old school points and condenser was a dramatic change in functional and reliability. Guys, don’t just read the magazines and buy parts based on flashy ads. Do the research and see what really works well and what doesn’t.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 10:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine gurus? Tired of Fighting a 2.0 Reply with quote

aeromech wrote:
Actually the problem I had with the fancy Pertronics distributor was the timing was bouncing all over the place. Engine ran like crap. When you connect a stroboscopic timing light, point it at the crank pulley, advance the throttle, you should see a fairly smooth change in timing. In my case it wasn’t smooth at all.

Installing Glenn’s vintage Bosch centrifugal advance distributor which had old school points and condenser was a dramatic change in functional and reliability. Guys, don’t just read the magazines and buy parts based on flashy ads. Do the research and see what really works well and what doesn’t.


90% of the time...thats simple to fix. The Pertronix and compufire (old school)...are NOT a simple drop in replacement. They have a magnetic field to worry about. They have a sharper square wave.

I have written pages of the seemingly minor things you have to clean up in older used distributors to be sure that these units work well. And when they do....(aside from quality control issues that may kill them)....they are far better than points...especially with injection. Its just a more accurate signal with less lag at end and beginning of points open and closed cycle.

Ray
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Jetfxr69
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Joined: December 28, 2018
Posts: 1293
Location: White mtns nh
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2021 5:40 am    Post subject: Re: Engine gurus? Tired of Fighting a 2.0 Reply with quote

SGKent wrote:
My experience with both my 1971 deluxe sunroof and my 1977 deluxe sunroof is that they are journey and not a destination.

Right now we are all under stress because of the SARS-2 thing and all the political issues. Take a break from the bus and follow the suggestions I made. See where it takes you.


Not all of us are under any stress about those things. Turned off my TV a year ago, so i could care less about politics or SARS. Sorry Steve, not a dig at you, just a different opinion about life. Up here in the NE mountains, we sorta tune out of the rest of the worlds problems.

Enjoyed a nice leisurely trip over to an outdoor concert by lake Champlain this weekend in Seamus. He looks rough but drove like a dream for about 500 miles through the Vermont back roads. Only possible from hundreds of hours of cut knuckles and wrench throwing.

Sit back, have a puff if you can, ( I can not), definitely a cold beverage and just stare at your bus. I hear enough frustration in your text that your considering walking away from a “money pit”. They’re all money pits.

And it WILL pay back in dividends you can’t imagine. “Cool bus bro..”, yeah that’s one of them. But even better is when a 65 year old guy that is with his daughter and grandchildren at the concert parking lot comes bye acting like a little kid, regaling about his times he spent in his old bus. And how much he misses it. He asked if he could sit in the drivers seat, to which of course i obliged. Should have seen the smile and heard the laughter he let out. His daughter said she hadn’t seen him like that in a long time. His name was Tom, and now we have a new friend in that area.

That my friend is why you need to keep at it. Not only will it bring you fun and joy, but others as well.
_________________
You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline. It helps if you have some kind of a football team, or some nuclear weapons, but at the very least you need a beer. Zappa

‘77 westy Seamus
‘76 tintop Crusher
‘77 westy The Judge
‘72 tintop bastard westy Hudson
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