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flomulgator
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Joined: March 07, 2013
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Location: Leavenworth, WA
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 Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2015 5:55 pm Post subject: Bentley Errors, Omissions, and Inadequacies |
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EDITED: At the bottom in italics is the original post, but I'm altering this thread as a catch-all for Bentley shop manual errors, omissions, inconsistencies, and gross inadequacies. I'll post what I've found, if you find something add it to the thread and I'll try to edit it into this first post.
ERRORS:
Page 20.34 -- shows the fuel tank vent lines for the syncro fuel tank venting to the wrong side. This is the original subject of this post and is detailed below. Credit to Ms. Taboo for noting it previously.
Page 87.02 -- A/C Hi/Low
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=364328
Page 35.82 -- 4/5th Syncronizer
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=554027
Figure 46-733 -- Late-model brake caliper omission/error:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=632838 .
Page 15.02 (?) -- Lifter adjustment error ("2 turns is too much"):
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=478277 .
Page 42.5 -- Rear wheel hub assembly
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9682861#9682861
OMISSIONS:
Tech Data p. 27 - Cylinder identification/plug wire routing omitted in some manuals:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=572799 .
INCONSISTENCIES:
Rendering in inch-pounds torque
http://gerry.vanagon.com/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A2=ind1402d&L=vanagon&D=0&P=2038
INADEQUACIES:
20.28 Syncro Fuel Tank Removal
Anyone who thinks it is as simple as these brief directions is in for a nasty surprise. Best writeup available is here:
http://syncro.org/removing-the-syncro-gas-tank/
Honestly this job is best done when the engine is completely removed.
Original Post (20.34)
Unless there is something I am not understanding, Bentley page 20.34 (syncro fuel tank and hose diagram) is incorrect, showing the two vent lines T-ing on the passenger side, and heading off somewhere to the rear of the vehicle.
On my own vehicle, the vents T on the drivers side, and (I believe) connect to the top of the charcoal cannister. This is also apparent by close inspection of HeftySmurf's 3rd picture on this page:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=354632
Can someone with significant experience please confirm?
Moderators: I found a couple other pages by searching "Bentley wrong". Can we collect Bentley errors somewhere? When the good book is wrong it makes life extra hard.
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Last edited by flomulgator on Sat Dec 05, 2015 2:32 pm; edited 6 times in total |
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MsTaboo
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| Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2015 7:03 pm Post subject: Re: Bentley 20.34 incorrect |
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Page 4 of the thread you posted.
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flomulgator
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Location: Leavenworth, WA
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| Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2015 7:20 pm Post subject: Re: Bentley 20.34 incorrect |
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Ah, I see that you sorted it out (although someone else miss-worded the problem). Unfortunately it never came up with any of the search terms I used. Well maybe this thread title will isolate and memorialize the issue better for some future person searching. Still think a collection of Bentley errors would be a good idea.
Did you ever figure out why the charcoal vent line terminates in the frame rail? Mine does too, but on 20.33 it says it should go to the "air cleaner". Was this a factory hack job? I'm guessing the purpose is just to get it somewhere where it is more likely to draw in clean air into the bottom of the canister. It seems like a mini hose filter or routing it into the intake (after the filter but before the throttle body) would be better.
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kamzcab86
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| Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2015 7:51 pm Post subject: Re: Bentley 20.34 incorrect |
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| flomulgator wrote: |
| Did you ever figure out why the charcoal vent line terminates in the frame rail? Mine does too, but on 20.33 it says it should go to the "air cleaner". Was this a factory hack job? |
As discussed in the charcoal/vapor canister topics, it is factory for the later vans, both 2WD and 4WD. Instead of sucking in filtered air, it's simply sucking in straight air (probably VW cost-saving more than anything else). For the Syncros it's a tad more problematic if the vans do water crossings; if this is the case, simply attach a longer hose and route the end to a higher location.
FWIW, other VW's of the same era use the same canister and were not ever connected to their air filters.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=521908
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flomulgator
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| Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2015 8:03 pm Post subject: Re: Bentley 20.34 incorrect |
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Musing on this a little bit, it seems that the ideal place to vent the tank for deep water crossings would be into the upper part of the snorkel. If it had vented that way, figure 20.34 would have been correct, as the vent line heads back to the passenger D-pillar area.....
Heck even the front diff and trans vent tubes are heading that direction before the get uncermoniously hacked off and terminated in the fuel tank area. Which reminds me, I had a nasty goo on my evap line and upper fuel tank surface in the area these lines terminate. Some sort of gear oil vapor condensate? I know gear oil has extremely low volatility, but still, rather coincidental. My rollover valves did not show signs of leaking.
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djkeev
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| Posted: Sat Dec 05, 2015 5:09 am Post subject: Re: Bentley 20.34 incorrect |
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There are indeed Bentley "inconsistencies", I've had experience with a few while working on my 86. Mostly electrical and Air Conditioning. Most are mid year changes that weren't included in the book. Some like the Radiator cooling fan resistor are just plain wrong.
I too puzzled over the fuel tank vapor Vent. Eventually I just eliminated the whole charcoal canister for now. Then again, I've no State inspections to deal with.
I have a new canister in the shed, my original fuel tank was collapsed from poor venting. Didn't have time to puzzle the canister vent system out and did not want a repeat collapse of my new tank. I guess I've left excessive fuel vapors lingering in 17 States so far....... But they all blow East to Jersey. 😉
If you feel that a Bentley "error / omission thread would be good, feel free to start it.
You could even retitle this thread to reflect your goal.
If it takes off, we can include it in the FAQ's
Dave
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537
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https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert |
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kamzcab86
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flomulgator
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| Posted: Sat Dec 05, 2015 2:30 pm Post subject: Re: Bentley Errors, Omissions, and Inadequacies |
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Thanks Kam, I've added these to the list!
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flomulgator
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| Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2015 2:53 pm Post subject: Re: Bentley Errors, Omissions, and Inadequacies |
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I think I have an answer to the whole syncro tank vent 20.34 thing. I have been told that European syncros were not fitted with a charcoal cannister or evap system, but that the tank venting goes to a second, smaller vent line on a euro-specific fuel filler. In this case, 20.34 would be correct, sending the top vents back towards the fuel filler. This is supported by the existence of a second smaller hole in the sheet metal at the bottom of the syncro filling area on USDM vans. Probably was a US emissions requirement or something
Perhaps the Bentley is a British publication? Any euros or brits with a syncro care to confirm?
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kamzcab86
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| Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2015 3:59 pm Post subject: Re: Bentley Errors, Omissions, and Inadequacies |
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| flomulgator wrote: |
| Perhaps the Bentley is a British publication? |
It's a USA publication. Haynes is British. 
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1986 Cabriolet: www.Cabby-Info.com
1990 Vanagon Westfalia: Old Blue's Blog
2016 Golf GTI S
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flomulgator
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| Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2015 4:09 pm Post subject: Re: Bentley Errors, Omissions, and Inadequacies |
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Huh, well than plagerism? poor data from VW NA? A subtle opinion statement on the USEPA?
Although this thread is to highlight frustrating errors, I would like to note that another part of my vehicle is governed by the Subaru Shop Manual, and that the organization of information between the two publications is like comparing a Costco to a SE Asian open air market.
The Bentley is awfully nice to have.
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MsTaboo
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| Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2015 4:29 pm Post subject: Re: Bentley Errors, Omissions, and Inadequacies |
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| flomulgator wrote: |
I think I have an answer to the whole syncro tank vent 20.34 thing. I have been told that European syncros were not fitted with a charcoal cannister or evap system, but that the tank venting goes to a second, smaller vent line on a euro-specific fuel filler. In this case, 20.34 would be correct, sending the top vents back towards the fuel filler. This is supported by the existence of a second smaller hole in the sheet metal at the bottom of the syncro filling area on USDM vans. Probably was a US emissions requirement or something
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Here is a photo of my old 16" Syncro. It did not have the charcoal canister.
You can see that there are indeed two vent lines going towards the filler.
(over the top of the shock mount)
This does not change the fact that the diagram 20.34 is incorrect for North American Syncros-and as the Bentley is an American publication for the North American market they used the wrong diagram (or were supplied the wrong one from VW)
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The information age has morphed into the age of disinformation and willful ignorance. Agnotology!
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Last edited by MsTaboo on Wed Dec 23, 2015 7:12 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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kamzcab86
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| Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2015 4:54 pm Post subject: Re: Bentley Errors, Omissions, and Inadequacies |
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| flomulgator wrote: |
| Huh, well than plagerism? poor data from VW NA? A subtle opinion statement on the USEPA? |
Keep in mind that Bentley Publishers got (they're no longer producing VW manuals) much of the data from Volkswagen AG, including diagrams and illustrations. So, when there's a technical abnormality found in a Bentley manual, much of the blame lies with VW, but Bentley does have their responsibility in verifying information and whatnot before going to print.
I've got three Bentley manuals for three very different Volkswagens. All three manuals are very worthy of owning, and all three have their errors, omissions, and inadequacies. Is it frustrating at times? Sure... but so is owning a Volkswagen.
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1986 Cabriolet: www.Cabby-Info.com
1990 Vanagon Westfalia: Old Blue's Blog
2016 Golf GTI S
"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance." - 孔子 |
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MsTaboo
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| Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2015 4:57 pm Post subject: Re: Bentley Errors, Omissions, and Inadequacies |
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| kamzcab86 wrote: |
| flomulgator wrote: |
| Huh, well than plagerism? poor data from VW NA? A subtle opinion statement on the USEPA? |
Keep in mind that Bentley Publishers got (they're no longer producing VW manuals) much of the data from Volkswagen AG, including diagrams and illustrations. So, when there's a technical abnormality found in a Bentley manual, much of the blame lies with VW, but Bentley does have their responsibility in verifying information and whatnot before going to print.
I've got three Bentley manuals for three very different Volkswagens. All three manuals are very worthy of owning, and all three have their errors, omissions, and inadequacies. Is it frustrating at times? Sure... but so is owning a Volkswagen. |
This is true for any factory or aftermarket manuals. I have a factory manual for my Geo Tracker that mislabeled an entire engine section!
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Sodo
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| Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 1:35 pm Post subject: Re: Bentley Errors, Omissions, and Inadequacies |
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Bentley P42.5 error - Rear wheel hub assembly.
1987 rear wheel bearing hub:
The inner ball bearing is captured between the seat, anbd the circlip.
There is no outer wheel bearing "seat", as such it's position is somewhat arbitrary.
The Bentley doesn't tell you how deep to position the bearing in the bore.
Isn't 2021 a little bit late in the game to out Mr.Bentley for this omission?
Lots of folks proclaiming that new wheel bearings are of poor quality.
Well that may be true, but shouldn't this Bentley error come up in all discussions of unexpected rear wheel bearing failure?
If the bearing is pressed in until seated,
it "seats" when the spacer jams against the rollers, in turn jamming the rollers against the sides of the bearing cup.
The rollers may not roll, probably skidding.
Which will surely cause early rear wheel bearing failure.
I suspect the correct Bentley text is:
"press the bearing in until special tool VW472 has seated".
I can't be the first person to discover this.
And how have I missed this detail in all the Vanagon discussions?
Is this the elusive Terry Kay preload just "bearing position"?
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Sodo
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| Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2022 10:15 am Post subject: Re: Bentley Errors, Omissions, and Inadequacies |
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Updated pic for the ^^above^^ post:
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djkeev
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Backtotheeighties
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2022 7:56 am Post subject: Re: Bentley Errors, Omissions, and Inadequacies |
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Vw factory manuals were not allowed out the dealer network -maybe this should change after 30 years- reprints ?
All the models were put in engine, or suspension etc groups -not model by model.
Bentley basically got permission to re write much of that. But for USA spec vanagon mainly so not so useful in Europe.
With the internet each workshop manual company should have 'corrections' available to view on their website. At least for safety.... |
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