Clocking Cam- Engine Rebuild

[TeeBird25]

Hello! I'm hoping to get some comments from you wise folk regarding my engine rebuild, specifically on cam timing. I saw a lot of topics on how to reindex the cam, but they didn't seem to fit exactly the problem I'm looking at, so here's a new thread.

Unfortunately I had to replace the crank shaft after inadvertently running without oil. I won't share it but there's a long, painful story there with some valuable lessons that I will carry forward but on the plus side it's given me an excuse to rebuild an engine which I've always wanted to do

When I tore the engine down I was expecting to see an Engle 110 cam, as told to me by the previous owner. Instead, it looks like a stock VW cam that was possibly reground to approximate an Engle's profile...? Not sure. It has '110' written on the gear, in marker, and has VW part numbers on the shaft so maybe that's the case. The previous owner is gone so I can't really track down the history. It seems I'm stuck with a one-off cam without much detail to go on.

So- I put in the new crankshaft (69mm counterweighted chromoly crank in a 1915cc engine) for a test fit and to clock my cam shaft. Lashing between crank and cam is good at .001" on a dial indicator and they rotate nicely together. I've clocked it and came up with the following on the #1 cylinder, using .050" as the reference for opening, closing and peak cam lift at the lifters:


Intake Open- 18 BTDC,
Intake Close- 49 ABDC,
peak Lift .319" (that's .319" above the .050" opening... not sure if that's the right way to document it but there are the numbers),
Duration at .050" - 247 degrees

Exhaust Open- 57 BBDC,
Exhaust Close- 10 ATDC,
peak lift .326",
Duration at .050" 247 degrees

This cam worked well with the last crankshaft, which was basically identical to this new one. I see no reason not to use it again, but was wondering if anyone can comment on the cam specs? Do you see any need to reindex the cam based on the above, and if so by how much? Right now it has rivets joining the shaft to the gear so I'd need to get a machinist to help me with the indexing (I know a good one)... so please comment if you have some insight here! Thanks- here's some pictures!

[dustymojave]

Google search brings up:
"Engle 110 camshaft is designed for 1.1 or 1.25 rockers, and it's specs are: 0.392" Cam Lift, 0.430" Valve Lift (1.1 Rockers), 284 degrees of advertised duration, and 247 degrees of duration at . 050", on a 108° Lobe Center."
_________________
Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet.

[dustymojave]

[earthquake]

What's that gear made out of? it looks like cast iron.

eQ
_________________
74 CLASS 11 LOOK-A-LIKE
69 DUNE BUGGY
79 INTERNATIONAL SCOUT II
05 SCION XB SERIES RELEASE 2[#437]
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98 Ford E150
Link to Kelly J. Nolte 3/20/53 - 11/6/08
https://time-zonelabs.blogspot.com/p/about-kelly.html
DEATH TO CHINGERS!
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[TeeBird25]

Thanks Richard! I was hoping the previous owner had really upgraded from stock like he said; he went so far as to write "110" on the gear, so must have been committed to his story but I don't understand why... very confusing.

Anyway, yes I guess now is the time to upgrade, but I'm wondering if it necessitates new cylinder heads too (mine are definitely stock). I've heard if you go with a performance cam you need to move to the HD valve springs, but do you think I'd have trouble using the stock heads? I'll also look around the forums as I'm sure there is a thread somewhere that talks about this...

Earthquake, I think it's just an original VW cam gear. There are some hard to read numbers on the rear face (see photo). other than that, I'm not really sure. Looks like I'll probably be swapping it out now, tho.

[slayer61]

Mind you, I'm just getting back into the VW game after "many" years of absence. However, in the motorcycle world (Kawasaki, Suzuki etc,) it's not uncommon to have a cam welded & reground. They are almost more common than new billet cams.

As a high school lad in the '70's, my car was a 73 superbeetle with a well built 1835. Counterweighted crank, balanced etc with the Engle 110 cam & stock heads with Kadrons. It was quite the little engine. I surprised many V8s of the era.

[TeeBird25]

Thank you Slayer61- that's great feedback. I'm going to bite the bullet and go with this Engle 110 kit, with new lifters and dual springs and will add an adjustable cam gear:

https://socalautoparts.com/product/w-series-camsha...gLG6_D_BwE

This way I know what's in there, so there's no doubt. And hearing that you ran this set up with stock cylinder heads is good news- thanks!

[dustymojave]

[TeeBird25]

Those are some really great pics and you’ve obviously had some amazing times in and around air cooled machines. That summit picture of yours reminds me of the first Baja bug I ever saw as a kid- I was probably 8 or so and thought it was the coolest car I’d ever seen.

Then when I saw the 5/1600’s racing in Baja two years ago I immediately wanted to get one. life’s short enough and you have to pull the trigger when the opportunity is there. Its hard work getting familiar with how they are put together but it’s been very rewarding for me and my sons that are just getting into high school. What a great hobby and an awesome way to spend quality time with my teenagers!

I ordered that kit and I’ll be swapping out the valve springs for duals since the cylinder heads are off right now (might as well do that too since the engine is in pieces). Thanks y’all, I really appreciate this community!

[TeeBird25]

Here's an update for y'all. I ordered the Engle 110 with an adjustable cam gear. Did a test fit yesterday and took lift measurements. Here are the results, as compared against that original stock cam I was running and also against the cam card that came with the Engle 110:

..................I.O......I.C....E.O....E.C....Gross Lift (@Lifters)....Duration @ .050
Stock Cam....18......49.....57.....10............0.370"....................247 degrees
Engle 110.....14......48.....51.....11............0.385"....................243 degrees
Card Specs...19......48.....55.....12............0.392"....................247 degrees


So from the above, it looks like I need to advance the cam about 2 degrees to the cam gear (4 degrees to the crankshaft) to get closer to the spec card. Also, it looks like the lobes were ground a little too much at least on the #1 valves that I measured; the gross lift and the duration doesn't quite match the cam card, and I did notice the exhaust lobe has a significant flat spot, with 18 degrees at the top of the lobe where the lifter stayed at the peak lift. It's an improvement over the stock cam, but not quite as much as the cam card suggested.

I also noticed that the adjustable cam gear (aluminum, Engle brand gear) has a very tight lash with the crankshaft. I didn't get any movement so the lash measurement was .000" and when I turned the crankshaft backwards, the cam shaft tended to lift slightly out of the bearings (I did this test a few times and sometimes it lifted a little, sometimes it didn't). From reading Mr. Bob Hoover's article on clocking the cam, this means it is too tight. But I've also read that those aluminum gears will actually wear in to a better fit. Does anyone have any further notes or experience on this? I'm planning on running this gear even tho it might be on the cusp of being too tight with the crankshaft, so if you think this is a huge mistake please let me know.

Thanks!

[TeeBird25]

I double checked that cam lash after opening the case halves again to prep for final assembly. This time the cam shaft did not walk out of the bearings at all when I rotated the crank counterclockwise.

I am thinking that maybe that first test was done before the crankshaft bearings were fully seated (they were definitely on the dowels but maybe not pressed in all the way), and after bolting the case together to do the cam measurements maybe that locked everything down nice and tight. It now seems like the cam gear lash is going to be ok. I don't hear or feel any movement so its still a .000" lash, but as I understand that is ok as long as it passes the reverse turn test.

So.. it seems all is well. I've advanced the cam shaft 2 degrees to the cam gear and I'm looking forward to getting this engine back in service. Final cam specs after advancing it are:

IO: 18 BTDC
IC: 44 ABDC
EO: 55 BBDC
EC: 12 ATDC
[Same gross cam lift at the lifters]

Thanks everyone for the comments and advice!!