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Elephant Foot style swivel foot adjusters
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MikeyM73
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:19 am    Post subject: Elephant Foot style swivel foot adjusters Reply with quote

Hey all,

Have been reading many of the threads about these adjusters, especially this one - https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...p;start=0. Apparently, a bunch of folks have tried them and I was wondering how the long term operation was/is. Amskeptic appears to have over 60k on his and I think others are approaching similar numbers.

I'd like to run these on my HAM heads once they arrive but have been hearing rumblings of "nothing is as good as the Porsche units" but I'm currently running 10MM 2L rocker arms on my 1.8 - I have spare 1.7 arms to install the 8mm ones if necessary but i guess my straight ahead question is are there any good quality elephant swivel feet made? Some say only Porsche, others say they have used different adjusters that lasted a long time. Heiko's adjusters were pretty popular a couple years back and seemed to last but wanted to get some input on which ones are acceptable and which aren't.

Thanks,
Mikey
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:24 am    Post subject: Re: Elephant Foot style swivel foot adjusters Reply with quote

Believe it or not, Ford
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:32 am    Post subject: Re: Elephant Foot style swivel foot adjusters Reply with quote

I used them and found the valve clearances moved around too much for my comfort. Also using stock rocker hardware they would not center (actually it is slightly off-center) properly. I went back to standard screws. Mine were not perfectly flat so the changing clearance may have been that. Maybe if I polished them before using them that part of the issue might have gone away. Some of the ones I bought in that group buy had a slight ridge on the bottom too that wanted to wear the valve tips funny. Again, polishing them might have solved that.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2021 12:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Elephant Foot style swivel foot adjusters Reply with quote

Ford courier I believe. Might be from the European market
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2021 1:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Elephant Foot style swivel foot adjusters Reply with quote

aeromech wrote:
Ford courier I believe. Might be from the European market


They are the Ford Courier/Mazda adjusting screws....but while they are very well made....they are NOT what you want to use on a type 4 engine. They are the "half ball" variety just like the Scat swivel screw.

They barely have enough range of motion for the stock cam. Anything slightly higher in lift and they can bottom out...lever the adjuster screw as the cam moves around...and that damn half ball flips...and breaks the screw.

Understand that Porsche...probably never manufactured their own swivel feet adjusting screws but they are demanding on the quality.

Having used a wide range of what was available on the market over the decades ...of almost every design....I can tell you that what Porsche offers as their genuine article....is always better.

Several companies/groups have made them for Porsche. ...Meyle made some of the original 911 units. Mahle made some. Wizeman made some and later Mahle/Wizeman made some and are still making them.

I cannot comment on Heiko's 10mm adjusters....but the original 8mm Porsche units have no issues with 1.8L or 2.0L....stock-ish engines that is.

Here are a few notes on brands that I could find from about 4 years ago.

Keep an eye on the Porsche 914 forums to get an idea how the different brands perform in a type 4. Ray
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2021 2:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Elephant Foot style swivel foot adjusters Reply with quote

aeromech wrote:
Believe it or not, Ford


Are you thinking of the same ones? Colin, myself and others have been using ones made by Thorsten Pieper: http://www.tp-technologie.de/produkte%20ventileinstellsch%20en.htm

They sell them in the classifieds here.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Elephant Foot style swivel foot adjusters Reply with quote

I was thinking type 1, sorry
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 3:39 am    Post subject: Re: Elephant Foot style swivel foot adjusters Reply with quote

I had german adjusters from BAS, 200 € set, one broke after few hundred kilometers (and they refused to replace it). Stock 41x34 valves, stock NOS VW springs... Decided to replace them with 10mm adjusters, now I´ve been able to just drive for several years and not worry if they break.

I can see the benefit of these adjusters on high rpm racing engine but in normal street use I think they are waste of money.

( If anyone wants to buy 7 pcs of german adjusters send me a message Very Happy )
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 6:58 am    Post subject: Re: Elephant Foot style swivel foot adjusters Reply with quote

Takamotti wrote:
I had german adjusters from BAS, 200 € set, one broke after few hundred kilometers (and they refused to replace it). Stock 41x34 valves, stock NOS VW springs... Decided to replace them with 10mm adjusters, now I´ve been able to just drive for several years and not worry if they break.

I can see the benefit of these adjusters on high rpm racing engine but in normal street use I think they are waste of money.

( If anyone wants to buy 7 pcs of german adjusters send me a message Very Happy )


Waste of time on the street? Not even remotely!

And.....in my experience....they have less real world need on the track at high rpms (its more of a high lift issue) than they do on a street engine that is rolling toward 150k mile lifespan, with widely variable rpms and loads.

The benefits to valve train long term wear.....both guide wear and valve stem wear are pretty much unmatched among upgrades. But they require the whole upper valve train to be optimized over stock....for their use.

So you broke one. So...is BAS....as excellent as they are.....are they KNOWN to make world class tool steel, factory level swivel foot adjusters? No....not yet they are not.

There is a reason why people keep saying......buy the tried and tested original equipmemt parts or at least aftermarket parts that are tried and proven.

Same issue with the 10mm adjusters Heiko is importing....which I think are Thorsten pieper products. Those also "may" be what you were using....or not. From all reports.....the one Heiko is/was importing are a great, promising product with good build quality from everything I have read....but still a few breakages here and there. Getting there though.

Thats a production process issue and not a "concept" issue.

Yes....the Porsche adjusters are expensive. However I have never seen a factory level Porsche style adjuster break....personally.....in over 40 years of using them. I have only heard of a handful breaking in that span of time on other peoples engines. In all but maybe one case the issue was tracked to installation issues.

Not saying anything or any product is perfect....but among the narrow range of companies already listed who have made this product for Porsche.....the track record compared to virtually any of the aftermarket "cheaper" versions...has been night and day better.

Yes....they are expensive.....probably over priced Laughing ....after all....they have the dreaded "P" moniker attached to them......but the quality and the FUNCTION have been well established.

If you want to go cheaper....just use the stock adjusting screws like you have gone back to.

The other question(s) I would have for you.....is did you use solid spacers? You note everything is stock....and your valve sizes seem to note 1.8L or 2.0L.....most of which came with hydraulic lifters and cam....which cannot be used with this product. And.....if that equipment has been swapped for solid cam and lifters.....have to ask about geometry and whether rocker arms were undercut.

Ray
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 10:27 am    Post subject: Re: Elephant Foot style swivel foot adjusters Reply with quote

How about the ones fron CB performance? Their low price concerns me but CB typically sells good stuff. I just don't know enough people who have used them. I'll probably just bite the bullet and go OEM.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 12:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Elephant Foot style swivel foot adjusters Reply with quote

MikeyM73 wrote:
How about the ones fron CB performance? Their low price concerns me but CB typically sells good stuff. I just don't know enough people who have used them. I'll probably just bite the bullet and go OEM.


Those are about the only ones I have not used. I largely quit experimenting on swivel foot adjusters years ago. The problem is not when a "less than" adjuster .....almost breaks....and you catch it on a valve adjustment. Its when one snaps at highway speed.....and destroys the valve and drops the pushrod out of the cup.

That happened to me only once. Luckily....towed home....replaced a dinged retainer, pushrod and rocker arm......no valve or head damage. Damn lucky. Others not so lucky.

Back in the late 90s through earpy 2000s ....think I tried bugpack/dee engineering, EMPI....a couple no names thriugh various parts houses that were probably made by the other three....some actual Ford/Mazda and Scat......which will BARELY work on a bone stock type 4.

But the risk with the Ford/Scat half ball style......is that there is some variation in actual rocker arm lift ratio accuracy on type 4 engines. When you get a rocker arm that is just barely more lift than the others.....you run out of angle on the half ball units. Not enougj yo break....but enough to bend and wear crooked.

Other issues found across the span of all of those listed was variable hardness and flatness on the foot/cup...variable wear in short time/mileage......the pinched/crimped style of cup compared ro machined....a whole range of variations over the years

Just not worth playing around testing IMHO.....compared to the potential damage they can cause when they break.

Not say8ng anything bad about CBs swivel feet. Just dont know.

My pure speculation is that they are made somehwere......"cheaper". I mean ...everyone bitches about the genuine Porsche price. Yes....a percentage of that cost is the Porsche name mark up.....but even when not Porsche branded....same part made by same companies that have or still do make them for Porsche......the cost is high enough that people complain and look for a cheaper option.

I would be surprised if between genuine Porsche....and the same part made by either Mahle or Wizeman.......if they sell more than 2500 parts a year. In those low production numbers....the cost will be high. The QC will be huge.....if you are working to make high quality parts...worthy of the "P" logo.....which jacks up the price even higher.

From this ad...the 1518 model "elephant" foot from CB

https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/1518.htm

......$37.95 for 8?......mmmmm......a little to cheap for what must go into a part like this....precision, hardening and QC wise. I may be 100% wrong....but I am not interested in being the guinea pig.

But plenty out there using them I bet. Its worth asking.

Also.....to be accurate. In about 8 out of 10 cases.....you cannot just slap these in and expect 300k miles. Their FUNCTION is not to cover over poor geometry...though they can do a a little of that. You really need to check fit, finish, geometry, clearancing, spacers etc.

Ray
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 12:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Elephant Foot style swivel foot adjusters Reply with quote

".is did you use solid spacers? You note everything is stock....and your valve sizes seem to note 1.8L or 2.0L.....most of which came with hydraulic lifters and cam....which cannot be used with this product. And.....if that equipment has been swapped for solid cam and lifters.....have to ask about geometry and whether rocker arms were undercut."

1800 heads and mechanical lifters & cam. Stock springs so no excessive pressure. Rockers clearanced for the adjusters = checked geometry, no issues there. I don´t know who makes them for BAS, they just say "made in germany". Could have been some issue with hardening, it just snapped.
My point was I just didn´t feel like experimenting with them more and be afraid of sudden disaster on the road. Also won´t be using them on the motor I´m building now, I´ll rather spend the 200-250 € on something else.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 1:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Elephant Foot style swivel foot adjusters Reply with quote

Ray, that's a good point. I don't really want to pay 30 bucks a pop for a screw but I also don't want this brand new engine to have issues with a substandard part in the valve train. I got REALLY lucky that I dropped the valve seat (causing my whole rebuild thread) on start up on a warm engine 2 blocks from my house. Hell, I already got everything else dialed in, and have the best heads made coming. I guess I really shouldn't bitch over 250 bucks when so far, the total spend on the "lower half" of the engine has been around 2k with machining and all. Part of me is wondering if I should go through the trouble at all since I'm only running .430 lift cam & will be installing lash caps that Len suggested just to protect the valve stem tips.

So then. Anyone have any good sources for genuine Porsche adjusters?

Thanks,
Mikey
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 2:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Elephant Foot style swivel foot adjusters Reply with quote

Takamotti wrote:
".is did you use solid spacers? You note everything is stock....and your valve sizes seem to note 1.8L or 2.0L.....most of which came with hydraulic lifters and cam....which cannot be used with this product. And.....if that equipment has been swapped for solid cam and lifters.....have to ask about geometry and whether rocker arms were undercut."

1800 heads and mechanical lifters & cam. Stock springs so no excessive pressure. Rockers clearanced for the adjusters = checked geometry, no issues there. I don´t know who makes them for BAS, they just say "made in germany". Could have been some issue with hardening, it just snapped.
My point was I just didn´t feel like experimenting with them more and be afraid of sudden disaster on the road. Also won´t be using them on the motor I´m building now, I´ll rather spend the 200-250 € on something else.



Yep....I get your point!

So everything was bone stock...solid lifters...and these were 10mm swivel feet units?

As far as I know.....Porsche/VW never installed 10mm swivel foot units. Though they may have been around for eons in racing shops....10mm swivel feet are just in the last few years with Heiko's import sets...."NEW" to me.

They have no history or little that I am aware of. I totally see your point in not wanting to dump $ into something relatively unproven especially since you broke one under the best of circumstances.

However...my point is that it is the "10mm" adjusters that are the unproven part. The 8mm adjusters are well proven from a limited range of mfgs.

This is the same reason I am not really interested in trying out the CB version of the 8mm elephant feet....even though the cost of teh KNOWN Porsche part....sucks.

Its just too important of a part to do trial and error. Ray
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 2:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Elephant Foot style swivel foot adjusters Reply with quote

MikeyM73 wrote:
Ray, that's a good point. I don't really want to pay 30 bucks a pop for a screw but I also don't want this brand new engine to have issues with a substandard part in the valve train. I got REALLY lucky that I dropped the valve seat (causing my whole rebuild thread) on start up on a warm engine 2 blocks from my house. Hell, I already got everything else dialed in, and have the best heads made coming. I guess I really shouldn't bitch over 250 bucks when so far, the total spend on the "lower half" of the engine has been around 2k with machining and all. Part of me is wondering if I should go through the trouble at all since I'm only running .430 lift cam & will be installing lash caps that Len suggested just to protect the valve stem tips.

So then. Anyone have any good sources for genuine Porsche adjusters?

Thanks,
Mikey



They list these as made by Mahle and the type 4 store sells top notch stuff.
Mahle has produced these for Porsche

https://lnengineering.com/type-4-store/type4store-products/valvetrain/oem-911-adjusters.html

Auto Atlanta has the Mahle screw and 5 others...all German...all list OEM or new replacement.

http://www.autoatlanta.com/porsche-parts/hardparts.php?dir=911-70-73&section=103-15

Look at Part # 49 on the Porsche 911 hard parts list. Call and ask them. Ray
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 3:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Elephant Foot style swivel foot adjusters Reply with quote

Thanks Ray.

Just got off the phone with them - 30 bucks a piece for genuine Porsche - Malhe / Wizeman. Pelican has them for 24.75 which I think is pretty darn good, compared to what we've been seeing.

https://www.pelicanparts.com/More_Info/90110537002...gLpcPD_BwE

If the VT geometry is correct, it sounds like you, Clatter, etc. are all on board with the Porsche units. I'm wondering if they will be a substantial benefit with this lowish lift cam and lash caps.

Thanks,
Mikey
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 6:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Elephant Foot style swivel foot adjusters Reply with quote

MikeyM73 wrote:
Thanks Ray.

Just got off the phone with them - 30 bucks a piece for genuine Porsche - Malhe / Wizeman. Pelican has them for 24.75 which I think is pretty darn good, compared to what we've been seeing.

https://www.pelicanparts.com/More_Info/90110537002...gLpcPD_BwE

If the VT geometry is correct, it sounds like you, Clatter, etc. are all on board with the Porsche units. I'm wondering if they will be a substantial benefit with this lowish lift cam and lash caps.

Thanks,
Mikey



You have no need for lash caps. You will barely have room under the rockers for the swivel feet...to start with....and the wide area swivel feet totally negate the need for lash caps....and....except for titanium valves...and I am sure there is some reason in the racing world aside from titanium valves that I do not know about.....but I see "0" need for lash caps with any valve that has a hardened tip.

Yeah...maybe on some engines ...if the stock type adjuster screw is actually harder than the valve tip ...maybe lash caps have a place. Or maybe on the wiper style rocker arm where your valve lash adjuster is on the pushrod end...sure...lash caps increase the valve stem area for the rocker wiper. Or maybe with VERY high valve spring pressures on a very high lift racing cam....yes....maybe lash caps.

The swivel feet are a substantial benefit in longevity....especially when the geometry is really excellent. The object is to prevent as much side load on the guides as possible.

This also means solid spacers....and usually if you want it right and its a non stock cam...new pushrods.

This may sound anal....but I am going to describe my valve geometry method...partly. I will do this in detail on the build I am working on in a few weeks.

1. Install an adjustable pushrod....and install a weak valve spring...maybe 30 lbs max....from the hardware store...just to keep the valve tight on its seat.

2. After you have ground or milled clearance under the rocker arms

Insert a swivel foot in the rocker arm and lock it with the nut allowing about 1.5 threads to 2.0 threads maximum clearance before the cuff of the swivel foot hits the rocker arm. You need a little bit of room because there will be a couple thousandths stretch over time.


How this looks from the side will depend on how you clearanced your rockers.

Here is what we are looking for. Measure this distance. Sorry imagine that adjusting screw picture is straight and not cocked.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


3. Then remove the swivel screw. Get a non hardened (meaning not too hard) class 8.8 bolt...and chuck it into a drill press and grind an centered point on it against a file.

Install that and lock it in the rocker arm and set the same distance. Like this:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


4. Then...mark your valves like this. You want a cross hair with a sharpy dead vertical and dead horizontal. Sorry these are sloppy. I did it on the fly as an example. The centerline vertical is slightly farther off to the left but you get the gist.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


5. In a perfect world....at half lift...the point of the screw will be dead on the center cross hair....and slightly off center on the fat side of that vertical line (right or left)

Remember....you are also setting your side play shims and spacers. About .003" slack on the rocker shaft.

Set your rocker shaft side play first before you start this and lock that in...

Ok...lets say at half lift you are dead on the centerline and just off-center left or right...ok?

Then rotate to full lift on the cam lobe and see where the screw point moves to. It should move downward below the half centerline (if my brain is thinking correctly)....AND....due to tolerance in the rocker shaft....it may shift from left to right or right to left. Thats OK.

When you rotate to full closed...the point should move a little above the centerline.
This is what I am looking at

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The object is to adjust the pushrod until you can get to as close to this set up as possible.

Mind you its RARE to be able to get exactly dead on the centerline ...at exactly half lift...and still have both valve closed and valve full open.....equally above or below the centerline. One will usually be excessively high or low.

You would rather have half lift off centerline slightly than have either full lift or full closed off excessively....way above or below the centerline

When you get it close ...but if you are not happy....lock the pushrod and then try...at most....a 0.010" or 0.020" shim under the rocker shaft blocks.

On near stock type motors I do not believe in grinding rocker stands....unless its a last resort. Nor do I believe in excessive rocker shims.

This is just a uniform way to go about it. Ray

Oh...and should have said that your rocker tips with nice clearancing should look more like this in cross section

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 10:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Elephant Foot style swivel foot adjusters Reply with quote

With high miles the stock adjusting screws will wear into the end of the valve stem causing it to become concave. If the end of the stem is concave by 0.001" your valve adjustment will be off by 0.001" and it it is concave by 0.005" your adjustment will be off by 0.005" which is very significant, effecting performance and greatly increasing valve train noise and adding to wear. Using either elephant foot adjusting screws or lash caps will control this.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 12:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Elephant Foot style swivel foot adjusters Reply with quote

High mileage engines with stock screws and neglected adjustment also tend to mushroom or skew the screw tip slightly, making precise valve adjustments difficult. Swivel-feet avoid this as well.

150k on the 8mm Porsche screws, no issues.
Robbie
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Clatter
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Joined: September 24, 2003
Posts: 7527
Location: Santa Cruz
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Elephant Foot style swivel foot adjusters Reply with quote

I have a set of the CB elephant feet running on a type 1 with Web 163 and heavy springs shimmed tight.
This with 1.1 rockers..
Many others run these with way heavier setups.

Your mild bus cam and single springs will be fine.
No need to spend $$$$ on the good feet.

Only excuse for the bigger swivel feet is not being able to find some 1.7 rockers.
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