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69 road race Ghia rebuild
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Ian Godfrey
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2021 1:38 am    Post subject: Re: 69 road race Ghia rebuild Reply with quote

Braukuche, the torsional stiffness of the body is a big issue for our cars.
I've done 2 things to help, the Mendeola front end is attached much better than a beam, it connects with the Napoleons hat as well as the frame head, and I have a roll cage with bars coming forward across the doors. I have considered more reinforcement around the the edge of the pan, but I'll test the torsional stiffness before I take that step (weight!)


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Braukuche
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2021 8:19 am    Post subject: Re: 69 road race Ghia rebuild Reply with quote

I saw me Ghia where they welded a steel box beam across the pan roughly under the rear seat.
I always wondered if welding the pan to the body would make it much stiffer?
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Go Reds! Smash state!

Retirement is here!
1956 Ghia
1959 SO-23 Westfalia
1960 double cab
1960 Baja Bug
1963 stretched double cab
1962 Golde sunroof Ghia
1963 356 B coupe
1963 Notchback
1967 21 window less rusty now
1973 Ghia convertible
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Ian Godfrey
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2021 2:58 am    Post subject: Re: 69 road race Ghia rebuild Reply with quote

I think the best solution without a roll cage is stiffening the perimeter of the pan. You used to be able to buy a preformed U channel section to bolt in using the perimeter bolts of the pan. It would be interesting to see how stiff it was if the body was welded to the pan..... big job for some one.

these are the pan stiffeners that used to be available
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slayer61
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2021 7:43 am    Post subject: Re: 69 road race Ghia rebuild Reply with quote

My "new-to-me" buggy, uses what feels like 3/4" pipe in the channel
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halbug
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2021 7:59 am    Post subject: Re: 69 road race Ghia rebuild Reply with quote

Braukuche wrote:
I saw me Ghia where they welded a steel box beam across the pan roughly under the rear seat.
I always wondered if welding the pan to the body would make it much stiffer?


I would be very concerned about reducing the value of my KG welding it to the pan Crying or Very sad besides the thought just keeps me sleepless Laughing

Only for a couple tens improvement on the track?

Just my 5c
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Braukuche
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2021 10:08 am    Post subject: Re: 69 road race Ghia rebuild Reply with quote

halbug wrote:
Braukuche wrote:
I saw me Ghia where they welded a steel box beam across the pan roughly under the rear seat.
I always wondered if welding the pan to the body would make it much stiffer?


I would be very concerned about reducing the value of my KG welding it to the pan Crying or Very sad besides the thought just keeps me sleepless Laughing

Only for a couple tens improvement on the track?

Just my 5c


With all the other mods for racing that would be the least of the issues when it came to selling it to someone who wants it stock.
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Go Reds! Smash state!

Retirement is here!
1956 Ghia
1959 SO-23 Westfalia
1960 double cab
1960 Baja Bug
1963 stretched double cab
1962 Golde sunroof Ghia
1963 356 B coupe
1963 Notchback
1967 21 window less rusty now
1973 Ghia convertible
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Ian Godfrey
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2021 2:43 am    Post subject: Re: 69 road race Ghia rebuild Reply with quote

I've just finished making and installing the brake hard lines. I thought I'd show what I do.
There are a few ways to go, you can buy a kit of hard lines and bend them to fit or you can make them from scratch. The are 3 types of tube that are legal in Australia and probably similar in Europe and USA. All of them are annealed (softer than a hard drawn tube).
Stainless, very hard to flare, tricky to bend, looks a million dollars
Steel / Bundy, often coated green, medium soft and flares pretty easily, cheap
Copper - nickel, the easiest to bend and flare and it doesn't rust.
Karmann's use 3/16", 4.75mm.
there are at least 3 types of flare, ours is a DIN bubble flare, so you need a flaring tool to make the flares and maybe a tubing cutter. you'll need to reuse your tubing nuts or buy some new 10mm x 1mm DIN nuts, I like stainless with a big hex SS4285D (DIN) from: https://www.brakehose.com.au/product-category/tube-nuts/

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And maybe some bending tools and a special spanner 11 x 10, 11mm end for Karmann's

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2 grommets for each end of the pan. I have used 2 sorts, West Coast Metric which is very similar to the original and Wolfsberg West which has a wider slot, rounded edges and is easier to fit

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Ian Godfrey
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2021 2:51 am    Post subject: Re: 69 road race Ghia rebuild Reply with quote

I am able to make much better flares in the copper-nickel, than Bundy, see the photo (sorry about the phone quality)

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I also used a joiner to connect my new master cylinder to the old rear brake line. Also from brakehose.com
For the DIN flare they label these as 'drill point'

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As it is a race care I have a proportioning valve on the rear line to slightly reduce the rear brake pressure so the front always locks before the rear

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On a disk brake Karmann the master cylinder is 19.1, for my bigger callipers I have chosen 23.8....... which may turn out to be a big mistake Embarassed
I've used a 22.2 from a 70's VW bus in the past which I liked the pedal feel. My new callipers have bigger pistons so we'll see.
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halbug
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2021 3:37 am    Post subject: Re: 69 road race Ghia rebuild Reply with quote

Nice progress Cool

I like those bending pliers - need tp get one myself. Seems like they can create pretty tight radii.

Is this handwheeled box a valve to reduce rear or front over braking?

Cheers
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Ian Godfrey
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2021 4:23 am    Post subject: Re: 69 road race Ghia rebuild Reply with quote

The valve reduces the pressure to the back, it stops the back over braking.
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Ian Godfrey
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 17, 2021 2:29 am    Post subject: Re: 69 road race Ghia rebuild Reply with quote

A good day today, i mounted many of the parts i completed over the last few months.
here is a finished suspension adjuster, all titanium


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front arms in


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fox shocks, 944 hubs and 911 disks




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top view

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and bolted on the golf 1 rack with a Quaife quick steer kit

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halbug
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 17, 2021 9:49 am    Post subject: Re: 69 road race Ghia rebuild Reply with quote

Very nice to see things coming together! It's motivating Laughing
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Ian Godfrey
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 12:38 am    Post subject: Re: 69 road race Ghia rebuild Reply with quote

Time for another little update.
I finished the front hard lines

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I was able to 'repurpose' some flexible lines from my son's 944 project. He'll just wonder where he put them Laughing

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with the 4 piston Wilwoods you need a NPT to 10x1mm adapter

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this part is finished

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I've done a basic wheel alignment starting with similar settings I used on the old ball joint front end. +6 caster, -2 camber, 1/8" toe in. I used more neg camber on the old front end, I'm thinking this more modern design with rising camber will be able to use less like an early 911.
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slayer61
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:41 am    Post subject: Re: 69 road race Ghia rebuild Reply with quote

Man, this forum needs a "like" button! Cool
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DORIGTT
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 9:22 pm    Post subject: Re: 69 road race Ghia rebuild Reply with quote

I can't wait to get feedback from you on how it performs. I've not seen reports of it used for anything other that putt putting to car shows and back.
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Ian Godfrey
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 1:00 am    Post subject: Re: 69 road race Ghia rebuild Reply with quote

Me too, I haven't been racing for 7 years and I miss it a lot. I have not found a single review of a car on the track with this suspension, to me it is way too much work just to go to a car show. I hope to have it all running by Christmas. This does assume no major hiccups along the way Rolling Eyes
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Ian Godfrey
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2021 8:01 pm    Post subject: Re: 69 road race Ghia rebuild Reply with quote

Time for an update.....
I'm waiting on some parts to finish up the front sway bar, so I moved on to the rear suspension. I'm using '86 944 arms with early 911 disks (solid) with a Wilwood caliper that has a hand brake mechanism
My first trial fit seemed to go well but I couldn't get suspension settings I wanted.

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one of the problems with 944 arms in an IRS pan is getting toe in, I want 3mm toe in and 2 - 3 degrees neg camber. I had already moved the inner pivot as far inboard as I could but I still had 3mm toe out and 1 deg neg camber.
So the next cure is grinding the spring plate holes to get the settings I want.
So 3 days later and many trial assemblies I got there. I can get up to 5mm toe in and 2.5 neg camber. I'd love a bit more but as Bugs Bunny said, 'that's all folks'. To get more I'd need to put a camber box on the inner pivot
if you are curious how they look and fit, look up Rebel Racing 911 camber box

(which) I can't seem to insert as a link

here's an arm in with the disk on so I can mount the camber gauge to the disk, and a strap to simulate ride height.

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Ian Godfrey
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2021 8:33 pm    Post subject: Re: 69 road race Ghia rebuild Reply with quote

a few details:
I've used a uniball for the inner pivot and cut the VW pivot bolt to the right diameter.

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instead of rubber or urethane spring plate bushing, I've used Elephant racing 944 poly bronze bushes. the outers are in cut down 944 housings

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and the inners are fitted in a VW bush

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finished it looks like

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Ian Godfrey
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2021 8:39 pm    Post subject: Re: 69 road race Ghia rebuild Reply with quote

Sway bar next, it's a rebel racing 944 bar that I 'cut and shut' the outer sections to work on a Ghia. It was a pity to wreck the nice anodising Sad
the mounts on the torsion housing are Kersher.


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here you can see the rear height adjusters in the middle of the pan just behind the sway bar

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Ian Godfrey
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2021 8:42 pm    Post subject: Re: 69 road race Ghia rebuild Reply with quote

last thing for this week I got the calipers on:

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and the mount to adapt it to the arm Very Happy

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Last edited by Ian Godfrey on Sun Aug 08, 2021 3:57 am; edited 2 times in total
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