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oprn
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Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12730
Location: Western Canada
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 Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 10:43 am Post subject: Old/new throw out bearing |
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I am aware (now!) there are two different styles of throw out bearings and the pressure plates and cross shafts are also different. I had the old style bearing in my street Buggy with the new style pressure plate for 2 years and possibly 8000 Km and it worked... until it didn't that is...
The dilemma now is I want to drive the Buggy for the rest of the season without changing out the swing axle transaxle. I have a newer IRS to go in but do not want to get into that until the winter down time. Changing the cross shaft is proving to be quite a chore with the trans still in the car so...
The problem seems to lie with a positive location of bearing as it goes against the pressure plate. Has anyone adapted the old style bearing to fit the sleeve for the new style bearing and did it work?
I am giving it a try and this is the progress so far.
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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12730
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:05 am Post subject: Re: Old/new throw out bearing |
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Laptop seems to have locked me out of my pictures...
What I wanted to show is that I added the sleeve to the swing axle trans and increased the size to match the ID of the old style bearing. Easy enough to do but will it work? We will see...
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Dale M.
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Joined: April 12, 2006
Posts: 20379
Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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| Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:10 am Post subject: Re: Old/new throw out bearing |
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Believe old style bearing WILL NOT fit over late model sleeve...
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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12730
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 12:37 pm Post subject: Re: Old/new throw out bearing |
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Correct, the hole in the old style is too large so I slipped a brass sleeve over the stock sleeve to make it match.
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Casting Timmy
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Joined: August 04, 2012
Posts: 1221
Location: Kansas City, Kansas
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| Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 1:49 pm Post subject: Re: Old/new throw out bearing |
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I'd be worried about the old style bearing with the posts coming out the side of the throw out bearing isn't going to like to work with the notches in the arms while trying to ride over a tube.
The later style throw out bearing that has a guide tube the clutch arms are rounded humps that push against a flat surface on the throw out bearing.
If you have a diaphragm style pressure plate you can buy the ring to convert it to take the older style throw out bearing.
I'd be worried that your combination is going to pop something loose, or you'll find out it's a really hard clutch pedal as stuff binds up.....which might be the best scenario as it keeps something bad from happening while driving and parts are turning.
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T1 IRS Rebuild Book on Lulu.com
http://www.lulu.com/shop/tim-marshall/t1-irs-transaxle-book/paperback/product-24055997.html
As seen in Volks America Issue 14 Page 11 (Full page review) |
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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12730
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 2:40 pm Post subject: Re: Old/new throw out bearing |
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| Casting Timmy wrote: |
I'd be worried about the old style bearing with the posts coming out the side of the throw out bearing isn't going to like to work with the notches in the arms while trying to ride over a tube.
The later style throw out bearing that has a guide tube the clutch arms are rounded humps that push against a flat surface on the throw out bearing.
If you have a diaphragm style pressure plate you can buy the ring to convert it to take the older style throw out bearing.
I'd be worried that your combination is going to pop something loose, or you'll find out it's a really hard clutch pedal as stuff binds up.....which might be the best scenario as it keeps something bad from happening while driving and parts are turning. |
Yes you hit the nail on the head there! That is my concern too now that I have it all set up. The pins don't allow for any vertical movement as it goes fore and aft. Not that it would move much but still...
A fellow could grind the notches a bit and let them move I suppose.
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Dauz
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Joined: January 05, 2010
Posts: 1790
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| Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 2:58 pm Post subject: Re: Old/new throw out bearing |
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| I know there's an adapter to go from early trans to late bearing. But you're trying to do the opposite, correct? |
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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12730
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 3:16 pm Post subject: Re: Old/new throw out bearing |
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| Dauz wrote: |
| I know there's an adapter to go from early trans to late bearing. But you're trying to do the opposite, correct? |
You are likely thinking of the sleeve that taps into the transaxle in place of the present seal and is a seal with a sleeve and no that is not what I need. I already have tapped and mounted the stock sleeve on the transaxle as the bosses were already cast into the case. That was easy.
I am trying to get away without changing the cross shaft out as it would require removing the transaxle. No small job on a swing axle unit.
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oprn
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Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12730
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 3:26 pm Post subject: Re: Old/new throw out bearing |
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| Casting Timmy wrote: |
| If you have a diaphragm style pressure plate you can buy the ring to convert it to take the older style throw out bearing. |
I was not aware you could buy them and yes I see them for sale on the Aircooled.net site. That would be the ticket to get me going however there is no guarantee that it will fit the Bus 210 mm pressure plate. The diameter will be correct I am sure but what I don't know is if the number of fingers on the diaphragm is the same and will match up. It is a $23 part but with shipping it will cost $86 to get it here to try.
I think I will see if someone closer has a used ring I could try.
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modok
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Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26787
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:56 pm Post subject: Re: Old/new throw out bearing |
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it is not FUN for an old guy to change the throwout arm in the vehicle, or weld up and reshape the arm in the vehicle but.... some people can do that. It's not impossible at all.
the newer style throwout bearing IS a better setup, if you want the best then you know what to do. |
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Erik G
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Joined: October 16, 2002
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Location: Tejas!
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| Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 6:16 pm Post subject: Re: Old/new throw out bearing |
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| 3 types of throw-out bearings. there is a carbon type... doesn't help you but maybe someone else reading down the road |
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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12730
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 7:40 pm Post subject: Re: Old/new throw out bearing |
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Just looking for a quick fix for the summer Modoc. It gets full IRS next winter, then it will be pretty.
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modok
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| Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 9:11 pm Post subject: Re: Old/new throw out bearing |
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Then put the collar on the pressure plate.
kennedy sells them, only costs a few $, should work fine. Make sure there is enough clearance for the "fingers" so it does not bind up when it travels.
"Rodjr" had that problem.....I could probably find it with the search if you need to know. Otherwise should work. So you tapped those holes for no reason? oh well. Or maybe not.
You thought yourself into this predicament, hopefully you can think yourself out. IMO welding or grinding the arm IN PLACE is not hard, the hard part could figuring out how to measure to make it equal and square. |
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FreeBug
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Joined: March 12, 2012
Posts: 4278
Location: deepest, darkest Switzerland
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| Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:21 am Post subject: Re: Old/new throw out bearing |
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| Erik G wrote: |
| 3 types of throw-out bearings. there is a carbon type... doesn't help you but maybe someone else reading down the road |
Yes, graphite. I've only ever seen one, though. |
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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12730
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:21 am Post subject: Re: Old/new throw out bearing |
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| FreeBug wrote: |
| Erik G wrote: |
| 3 types of throw-out bearings. there is a carbon type... doesn't help you but maybe someone else reading down the road |
Yes, graphite. I've only ever seen one, though. |
Year - 1967, Event - Dad, brother and I pulled a '58 Bug out of a slough, paid the farmer $25 for it and literally drug it home. Eventually all the wheels broke loose and turned...
Yup! It had a carbon throw out bearing in it! First and last one I have seen.
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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12730
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:29 am Post subject: Re: Old/new throw out bearing |
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| modok wrote: |
| Then put the collar on the pressure plate. |
| oprn wrote: |
| Casting Timmy wrote: |
| If you have a diaphragm style pressure plate you can buy the ring to convert it to take the older style throw out bearing. |
I was not aware you could buy them and yes I see them for sale on the Aircooled.net site. That would be the ticket to get me going however there is no guarantee that it will fit the Bus 210 mm pressure plate. The diameter will be correct I am sure but what I don't know is if the number of fingers on the diaphragm is the same and will match up. It is a $23 part but with shipping it will cost $86 to get it here to try.
I think I will see if someone closer has a used ring I could try. |
I called the 2 biggest Vintage VW suppliers here in Canada - no go! I put a wanted ad on the local VW Faceplant Buy and Sell so... we will see...
| modok wrote: |
| You thought yourself into this predicament, hopefully you can think yourself out. IMO welding or grinding the arm IN PLACE is not hard, the hard part could figuring out how to measure to make it equal and square. |
Now that is a possibility... weld over the notch in the cross shaft and grind it smooth... let me give it a look!
Thanks Modoc!
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Casting Timmy
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Joined: August 04, 2012
Posts: 1221
Location: Kansas City, Kansas
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| Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:02 pm Post subject: Re: Old/new throw out bearing |
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If the motor is still out and you have the correct style clutch arm.....might just cut the shaft on the old one to remove it.
You might want to have a different clutch arm handy in case you can't get the old one off the old cut off shaft piece.
_________________
T1 IRS Rebuild Book on Lulu.com
http://www.lulu.com/shop/tim-marshall/t1-irs-transaxle-book/paperback/product-24055997.html
As seen in Volks America Issue 14 Page 11 (Full page review) |
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Jason37
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Joined: April 21, 2004
Posts: 1028
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| Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 8:13 pm Post subject: Re: Old/new throw out bearing |
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| From my understanding the ring of the early pressure plate will snap into the late, so maybe look for a used early plate to get the ring? |
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FreeBug
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Joined: March 12, 2012
Posts: 4278
Location: deepest, darkest Switzerland
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| Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:09 am Post subject: Re: Old/new throw out bearing |
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| oprn wrote: |
| FreeBug wrote: |
| Erik G wrote: |
| 3 types of throw-out bearings. there is a carbon type... doesn't help you but maybe someone else reading down the road |
Yes, graphite. I've only ever seen one, though. |
Year - 1967, Event - Dad, brother and I pulled a '58 Bug out of a slough, paid the farmer $25 for it and literally drug it home. Eventually all the wheels broke loose and turned...
Yup! It had a carbon throw out bearing in it! First and last one I have seen. |
For me, IIRC, it was a '64 Ghia.
Bit the bullet, do it right, take the time it needs to convert to the "modern", guided set-up. I think you'll thank yourself in the long-term.  |
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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12730
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 4:24 am Post subject: Re: Old/new throw out bearing |
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| Jason37 wrote: |
| From my understanding the ring of the early pressure plate will snap into the late, so maybe look for a used early plate to get the ring? |
Ah yes but does it fit the 210mm Bus pressure plate? They never came with one.
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