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Chickensoup
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Joined: January 06, 2018
Posts: 5368
Location: Good Hope, GA
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 Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 12:17 pm Post subject: EFI Intakes for ferty hersers/12 hundri sicies |
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Well it is way too nasty outside to be working on anything today. Yesterday, i actually had 9 full cups of H20 and only pissed once  Like i said, its HOT and muggy, so i decided to wrap up a project.
All complete minus the correct top flange. Im still deciding on which TB to choose.
The engine these are going on will be carb at first, so i can break it in and test the printed manifolds. And if all goes well i will be doing some experimental testing with these bad boys.
like power gains, curve comparisons, water injection vs no injection, CHT's, etc.
Runner volume is the same as the carbie intakes i made at the moment but i may bump up the runner length a tad. i'll post the numbers later along with a blueprint.
These use the brown denso injectors you find on the ez30r's. a nice platform for upgrading if you go larger. plus the spray pattern is perfect for a 40hp head. injector bosses are at a 60 degree angle.
I was looking at the Honda grom Throttle Bodies. They are drive by wire, and have TPS, AND idle air control valves.
Anyone know of any single throat throttle bodies in the 30-35mm range that can be commonly found in oem applications?
thanks
_________________
-'85 c10 5.3 LS, 222 cam, long tubes, x pipe, 3 inch spin tech's
-'05 B5.5 TDI Wagon 17in sport rims ;EGR + BSM + ASV Delete, Stage-2 Tune, straight pipe
'65 Tourist Delivery Build
'66 RIP
'69 RIP
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge"
Last edited by Chickensoup on Tue Jul 27, 2021 7:27 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Lingwendil
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Joined: February 25, 2009
Posts: 3988
Location: Antioch, California, a block from the hood
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Chickensoup
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Joined: January 06, 2018
Posts: 5368
Location: Good Hope, GA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 1:52 pm Post subject: Re: EFI Intakes for ferty hersers/12 hundri sicies |
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Thats actually very close to what I'm looking for! I have no idea what the device is on the right tho. The left looks to be tps. I would think its the dbw motor but I don't see a lever attached to the blade shaft.
Still tho, those throttle bodies would be great for a stroker 40hp.
Thanks
_________________
-'85 c10 5.3 LS, 222 cam, long tubes, x pipe, 3 inch spin tech's
-'05 B5.5 TDI Wagon 17in sport rims ;EGR + BSM + ASV Delete, Stage-2 Tune, straight pipe
'65 Tourist Delivery Build
'66 RIP
'69 RIP
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" |
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Lingwendil
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Joined: February 25, 2009
Posts: 3988
Location: Antioch, California, a block from the hood
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| Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 1:55 pm Post subject: Re: EFI Intakes for ferty hersers/12 hundri sicies |
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I think one side is TPS, the other is the idle-up solenoid.
Looks like they would be rather easy to divorce and modify for a simple linkage. Like the old school stuff you see on the TDE or Okrasa rigs.
I think a fuelie forty would be slick with these on a pair of those manifolds, and simple dome-top air cleaners of some sort- almost like a industral/vintage speed rig but modernised. 
I've had 40 horse on the brain lately, and you tickled my fancy here 
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Nightshift
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Joined: December 31, 2019
Posts: 222
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| Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 4:32 pm Post subject: Re: EFI Intakes for ferty hersers/12 hundri sicies |
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EFI Intakes for ferty hersers/12 hundri sicies ???
English please. |
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Dauz
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Joined: January 05, 2010
Posts: 1790
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| Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 4:51 pm Post subject: Re: EFI Intakes for ferty hersers/12 hundri sicies |
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It's all that hoodoo exposure in the dirty south. Also, because you didn't pee, does it mean it was all sweat? oof..
I don't know about OEM, but Jenvey makes some very nice products. Their site is acting up right now.. but try https://store.jenvey.co.uk/ later |
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modok
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Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26785
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 4:52 pm Post subject: Re: EFI Intakes for ferty hersers/12 hundri sicies |
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EFI you need one injector per cylinder, and each cylinder it's own port
OR
the injector as far as possible upstream so the air/fuel mixture becomes constant through random action.
EFI is why VW invented dual port heads.
You may think that TODAY you can solve the problem with sophisticated control? if so, good luck. Maybe you can, maybe not. Probably not.
If you didn't know there was a problem, then, well, I'm not happy to piss on your parade but, it would be cruel not to tell you.
During the development of ms1 extra, whenever that was, maybe ten or fifteen years ago..... there was some guys trying to figure out how to inject a Siamese port engines with the proper injector timing but overall it did not go anywhere as far as I know.
However that does not mean it is impossible. I think it could work, and is not heavily explored because people like symmetry.
But the only people I see try it in the last ten years are doing it because they didn't know better, and thus are surprised when it doesn't work. So, good luck space man.  Either your aiming high or you have bad aim. |
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mcmscott
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Joined: March 12, 2010
Posts: 4856
Location: sanger ca
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| Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:00 pm Post subject: Re: EFI Intakes for ferty hersers/12 hundri sicies |
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104 here, half a flat of water so far. Nice project btw.
_________________
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Chickensoup
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Joined: January 06, 2018
Posts: 5368
Location: Good Hope, GA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:14 pm Post subject: Re: EFI Intakes for ferty hersers/12 hundri sicies |
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| Nightshift wrote: |
EFI Intakes for ferty hersers/12 hundri sicies ???
English please. |
Sorry me no speak engles
_________________
-'85 c10 5.3 LS, 222 cam, long tubes, x pipe, 3 inch spin tech's
-'05 B5.5 TDI Wagon 17in sport rims ;EGR + BSM + ASV Delete, Stage-2 Tune, straight pipe
'65 Tourist Delivery Build
'66 RIP
'69 RIP
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" |
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Chickensoup
Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2018
Posts: 5368
Location: Good Hope, GA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:19 pm Post subject: Re: EFI Intakes for ferty hersers/12 hundri sicies |
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| Dauz wrote: |
It's all that hoodoo exposure in the dirty south. Also, because you didn't pee, does it mean it was all sweat? oof..
I don't know about OEM, but Jenvey makes some very nice products. Their site is acting up right now.. but try https://store.jenvey.co.uk/ later |
| mcmscott wrote: |
| 104 here, half a flat of water so far. Nice project btw. |
Yup all sweat. Day before yesterday I played basket ball outside for like 6 hours straight from 12-6. No joke i left ass cheek marks on the concrete when I sat down. And my shorts were still wet the next morning. Its crazy hot here right now. Except from Florida, us deep south boys don't wear shirts this time of the year lol. In Florida you get stage 12 skin cancer if you try to pull that one tho.
When the site is back up will have to check em out. I don't know many of the British companies.
Thanks
_________________
-'85 c10 5.3 LS, 222 cam, long tubes, x pipe, 3 inch spin tech's
-'05 B5.5 TDI Wagon 17in sport rims ;EGR + BSM + ASV Delete, Stage-2 Tune, straight pipe
'65 Tourist Delivery Build
'66 RIP
'69 RIP
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge"
Last edited by Chickensoup on Tue Jul 27, 2021 7:34 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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NJ John
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Joined: September 21, 2007
Posts: 2222
Location: HdG, MD & NJ
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| Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 6:15 pm Post subject: Re: EFI Intakes for ferty hersers/12 hundri sicies |
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| Nightshift wrote: |
EFI Intakes for ferty hersers/12 hundri sicies ???
English please. |
Hot outside and no pee pee.
_________________
1973 standard, yellow, lowered, 3” narrowed front, 1600 blo-thru turbo w/single dell 15.4@86, so far
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Chickensoup
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Joined: January 06, 2018
Posts: 5368
Location: Good Hope, GA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 7:10 pm Post subject: Re: EFI Intakes for ferty hersers/12 hundri sicies |
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| Lingwendil wrote: |
I think one side is TPS, the other is the idle-up solenoid.
Looks like they would be rather easy to divorce and modify for a simple linkage. Like the old school stuff you see on the TDE or Okrasa rigs.
I think a fuelie forty would be slick with these on a pair of those manifolds, and simple dome-top air cleaners of some sort- almost like a industral/vintage speed rig but modernised.
I've had 40 horse on the brain lately, and you tickled my fancy here |
ok, i see the lever now. makes sense.
well if you decide to pick up a 40 horser, maybe ill send you a pair to play with
is your 1776 dp or sp? it would be easy to make a set for late sp.
_________________
-'85 c10 5.3 LS, 222 cam, long tubes, x pipe, 3 inch spin tech's
-'05 B5.5 TDI Wagon 17in sport rims ;EGR + BSM + ASV Delete, Stage-2 Tune, straight pipe
'65 Tourist Delivery Build
'66 RIP
'69 RIP
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" |
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Chickensoup
Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2018
Posts: 5368
Location: Good Hope, GA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 7:25 pm Post subject: Re: EFI Intakes for ferty hersers/12 hundri sicies |
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| modok wrote: |
EFI you need one injector per cylinder, and each cylinder it's own port
OR
the injector as far as possible upstream so the air/fuel mixture becomes constant through random action.
EFI is why VW invented dual port heads.
You may think that TODAY you can solve the problem with sophisticated control? if so, good luck. Maybe you can, maybe not. Probably not.
If you didn't know there was a problem, then, well, I'm not happy to piss on your parade but, it would be cruel not to tell you.
During the development of ms1 extra, whenever that was, maybe ten or fifteen years ago..... there was some guys trying to figure out how to inject a Siamese port engines with the proper injector timing but overall it did not go anywhere as far as I know.
However that does not mean it is impossible. I think it could work, and is not heavily explored because people like symmetry.
But the only people I see try it in the last ten years are doing it because they didn't know better, and thus are surprised when it doesn't work. So, good luck space man. Either your aiming high or you have bad aim. |
if someone is helping you, and giving good advice, you have no right to uppset about your mistake. so thanks.
i thought about this too, and decided that if i use a larger than needed injector, with higher psi, i could get the job done wthout having close to 100% duty cycle.
but as you know, this is super not good for AF mixture.
but i also want it to be port injection. otherwise i would just use a pair of ITB's and be done.
BUT, we have another problem yet again. between the fan shroud and cylinder head tin, and the fact the intake is basically a singular straight tube, injector placement is EXTREMELY limited.
but but but... this leaves us with two options really. either two normal sized injectors cris crossing eachother like an x(but because they are located on a singular round axis, the fuel rail should be curved around the tube), or copy the cock rocket dudes and use a big daddy injector, and lil daddy injector placed ontop of eachother. and then play around with the timing.
i suppose i could just make both styles and test them out.
i was thinking because each bank fires after another, i could get away with one injector(gives each side a break every rotation), but as stated, fuel mixture will suffer.
_________________
-'85 c10 5.3 LS, 222 cam, long tubes, x pipe, 3 inch spin tech's
-'05 B5.5 TDI Wagon 17in sport rims ;EGR + BSM + ASV Delete, Stage-2 Tune, straight pipe
'65 Tourist Delivery Build
'66 RIP
'69 RIP
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" |
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modok
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26785
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 9:06 pm Post subject: Re: EFI Intakes for ferty hersers/12 hundri sicies |
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Getting the right amount of fuel in each cylinder to match the amount of air is very difficult with a "Siamese port engine".
I have been watching many years to see it done successfully, but still have not seen it done on any automobile, motorcycle, or snomobile.
Tho it is a thing that carburetors can do automatically. Port injecting a SP engine is just not worth chasing. Far more difficult than it seems.
Thanks for having a good attitude. Should work both ways, and I think it does.
I never got plastic manifolds to work...but how hard did I try? Not very hard. You might show me one that does...... and I'm looking forward to it.
So tho I think steel is the best material for a SP manifold that's just my opinion, I could be wrong, in fact I hope I am wrong |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 10:49 pm Post subject: Re: EFI Intakes for ferty hersers/12 hundri sicies |
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| modok wrote: |
Getting the right amount of fuel in each cylinder to match the amount of air is very difficult with a "Siamese port engine".
I have been watching many years to see it done successfully, but still have not seen it done on any automobile, motorcycle, or snomobile.
Tho it is a thing that carburetors can do automatically. Port injecting a SP engine is just not worth chasing. Far more difficult than it seems.
Thanks for having a good attitude. Should work both ways, and I think it does.
I never got plastic manifolds to work...but how hard did I try? Not very hard. You might show me one that does...... and I'm looking forward to it.
So tho I think steel is the best material for a SP manifold that's just my opinion, I could be wrong, in fact I hope I am wrong |
Plastic manifolds?.....well....what's your highest constant temperature point?
My Golf has a plastic intake manifold. Head temp is usually about a constant 325 F...maybe peaks of 350. Max of glass or carbon filled PPS is about 390 F.
If you can put a spacer in to keep the 400-ish peaks down (which you should not have anyway outside of a bus)....you should be able to use modern PPS plastic for this intake manifold.
My Golf has 214,000 miles on it and still cooking on that damn plastic manifold. 
Ray |
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Alstrup
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Location: Videbaek Denmark
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| Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:54 am Post subject: Re: EFI Intakes for ferty hersers/12 hundri sicies |
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On the Audi V6 TDI´s the plastic flappers in the intake usually become a problem around 300000 km´s. The newer PSA V6 TDI engine has apparently a different mix of plastic in the intake manifold. We see those crack already from about 100000 km´s. (There may of course be a vibration harmonic that plays a role too) The right platic mix can hold a long time.
Wrt 1 jet for 2 cylinders. That is not a problem on such engine unless you are chasing the very last performance. The easy way is to run "double duty" meaning squirting at every intake stroke. Most nozzles can handle 16000 rpm no sweat, so you dont run into problems on that account until shy of 8000 rpm.
We use the double duty method on f.i. old Mini engines with stock heads. It is not unusual to pick up 5-7 hp over a 40 mm Weber on a swan neck manifold.
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RWK
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Joined: June 24, 2009
Posts: 1348
Location: S.W. MI
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| Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:15 am Post subject: Re: EFI Intakes for ferty hersers/12 hundri sicies |
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Did some molds for plastic parts for Mann Filters back in the 80's, they were molding parts for under hood, pre-heat flapper, hose mount, vac chamber and piston, assembly as I recall, parts were molded from GE Minlon, it was a mineral filled nylon. It was a fairly high temp plastic. Believe the end user was Chrysler/Dodge
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RWK
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Location: S.W. MI
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| Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:24 am Post subject: Re: EFI Intakes for ferty hersers/12 hundri sicies |
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3 of the 4 parts are top right, I'm guessing about the time US cars were starting to go to FI,
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raygreenwood
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Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 7:20 am Post subject: Re: EFI Intakes for ferty hersers/12 hundri sicies |
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| RWK wrote: |
| Did some molds for plastic parts for Mann Filters back in the 80's, they were molding parts for under hood, pre-heat flapper, hose mount, vac chamber and piston, assembly as I recall, parts were molded from GE Minlon, it was a mineral filled nylon. It was a fairly high temp plastic. Believe the end user was Chrysler/Dodge |
Yes. Back in the 80s....GE glass filled nylons (PA's) were just about the best thing available that checked all the important boxes....strength, chem resistance and temperature. Of course there are plastics that had higher temperature and certain strengths even back then.....but the cost on THAT material was and still is so much higher that outside of military and aerospace....no one can afford it.
Even now, so many new nylon/PA "alloys"....its changing the game all the time. But mostly now the nylons dont do this level of "heavy lifting" in automotive.
The glass, carbon and evdn cellulose filled polyphenylene family is far better......for a part that sees high heat...and chemical....and compression OR torsional issues. Notice....I did not say compression AND torsional issues....because
To Alstrups comment.....yes.....virtually every manufacturer who uses intake manifold variable volume flap aysytems.....has had problems. Mercedes....VW....Volvo...BMW. dont know about US cars but assume as well.....because....
And....this is perfect it for this discussion as well.....because at some point if this intake is going to be 3D printed....you have to select a plastic material. Or if its going to short run iniection molded....you have to select a plastic material.
It depends on exactly how the flap system works in a given manifold. Many of these flaps are "called"...swirl flaps. Others are called variable volume flaps. They are all inside the intake manifold. Some are designed literally as the name implies.....to move into the airstream at a specific rpm and load to induce or reduce "swirl" or turbulence....which can improve both volumetric efficiency (better able to allow air to enter the TB in the face of turbulence plume)....or to aid atomization at the port. Others still....are simply designed to wall off areas of the plenum to make the volume higher or lower.
This allows a single diameter of TB to be more accurate and keep more uniform airflow witjout stalling..... across a wider range of rpm.
My point......back to my comment of not being able to say compression AND torsional issues (and I dont mean cylinder compression)........what you have is a flap.....that is one type of plastic....maybe blended with another to give it chemical strength and high temp resistsnce. But that does not mean its perfect. Just good.
Then its blended with a filler.....like carbon granules and/or carbon fiber....and/or fiber glass etc......to give it strength against twisting and bending and compression (torsional, impact and tensile strength).....and again....because of other items already in the mix to help with the other parameters already mentioned.....the mix can rarely be perfect.
These plastic flaps....unlike a static part....like the outside shell of the intake manifold....or even the impellor in my waterpump (which came out in pristine shape at 210,000 miles last month).......have to work with a combination of heat, fuel and oil contact.....AND.....TWISTING, BENDING and VIBRATION.....as they are thrust into violent turbulence and in the face of high incoming air volume/force.
The short answer....is that the flexing FATIGUE is the wild card. Its the bending and vibration component of these flaps that is hard to design for, model for and test for. Yes.....as these parts made their debut .....they have then had to have been re-blended and improved to try to work around the unique problem set they encounter.
I think with this manifold design in this thread.....if one can get around that "at the head" joint temperature....for both running temps and after shut down heat soak temps.....any of the now fairly common glass/carbon filled PPS plastic alloys could do just fun.
Even on existing metal type 1, 3 and 4 intake manifold runners....during engine running.....the runners rarely see temps above about 125 to 150 F all along the runner length ....maybe 250-275 F at the steel casting.....and maybe 300 to 325-ish at the spacer/gasket combination that is between the end casting and the head. Ray |
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Dauz
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| Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 10:06 am Post subject: Re: EFI Intakes for ferty hersers/12 hundri sicies |
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| Chickensoup wrote: |
| Dauz wrote: |
It's all that hoodoo exposure in the dirty south. Also, because you didn't pee, does it mean it was all sweat? oof..
I don't know about OEM, but Jenvey makes some very nice products. Their site is acting up right now.. but try https://store.jenvey.co.uk/ later |
| mcmscott wrote: |
| 104 here, half a flat of water so far. Nice project btw. |
Yup all sweat. Day before yesterday I played basket ball outside for like 6 hours straight from 12-6. No joke i left ass cheek marks on the concrete when I sat down. And my shorts were still wet the next morning. Its crazy hot here right now. Except from Florida, us deep south boys don't wear shirts this time of the year lol. In Florida you get stage 12 skin cancer if you try to pull that one tho.
When the site is back up will have to check em out. I don't know many of the British companies.
Thanks |
https://store.jenvey.co.uk/throttle-bodies-and-com...xx-xx-xx1s
Looks like they're back up
BTW, they have a US reseller https://foxinjections.com/pages/jenvey |
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