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TDI into '78 Bus Build Thread
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vwwestyman
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 8:28 pm    Post subject: Re: TDI into '78 Bus Build Thread Reply with quote

I sent Skills a message last week asking about how to solve the vibrations and he asked about the front mount, so I sent some pics. Here is his response.

skills@eurocarsplus wrote:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


i don't know what the fuck is going on with my photo editor, so sorry for that.

is the nut (circled) hitting anywhere? i forget unless it's right in front of me but that bar that pinches the bull horns is thicker on one side than the other. if you have it flipped, it will rub

second, i bolt the bull horns flush with the bar. you have about 1/8" hanging proud

3rd

the arrow where the "hoop" pinches the mount to the nose cone. looks like a lot of gap there. i suspect the mount is just rattling away in there. that could be a source of the issue.

are you using the "mouse ears" on the stock trans cross brace? if you are hows the gap between the mount brace and body? how are those mounts?

i know some guys run without it because of odd noises. personally, i've never had an issue but diesels....meh...their noisy in whatever they came in


To answer that, here are more details of my front mount. (I know it's dirty.)

The nut he circled and asked about is not touching anything.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The "bull horns" do stick out a bit. But no parts of the transmission are touching the frame.

And there is a gap in the mount. I *think* that it was replaced when the transmission was rebuilt. But anyone know a great source for a new quality one? Or suggestions on ways to fill the gap? That gap is not present on my '73.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


More to come in a moment.
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Last edited by vwwestyman on Wed Jul 28, 2021 8:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 8:43 pm    Post subject: Re: TDI into '78 Bus Build Thread Reply with quote

As far as the "bull horns" sticking out a bit proud of that block:

Unless I'm mixed up on the geometry of it, it seems like if I pull the drivetrain back that 1/8th inch, it will result in the top of the shifter being closer to the dash, yes? I know that I've messed with the fore/aft alignment of this drivetrain because of my knuckles bumping the dash when I'm going to 1st or 3rd.

They're actually a little more proud on the '73. And also, the block doesn't seem to have the offset. And in that Bus, I don't nearly bump the dash when shifting.

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No gap in the front trans mount, either.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 8:53 pm    Post subject: Re: TDI into '78 Bus Build Thread Reply with quote

skills@eurocarsplus wrote:


i know what you mean by having longitudinal VAG cars in the fleet but i have had the snubber disintegrate on one and the only real issue is the engine was sloppy. no odd vibrations at all






I wasn’t even addressing any vibration issues, I was just letting him know about the inability of these mounts to deal with being pulled apart.



As far as vibrations go, a very common cause in the B5 chassis cars is incorrect axle length. The aftermarket axles tend to be longer than factory axles. This causes the axle to become a, we’ll say “hard link” between the engine/transmission and the body (through the steering). This can be an issue with yours since the mounts & brackets were not factory engineered.

While the bus is on the ground, grab the axles & push them in & out to see if they “float”. If they move back & forth 1/4”-1/2”, these aren’t your problem. If they feel solid, that’s probably where the vibration is transferring into the chassis.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 9:03 pm    Post subject: Re: TDI into '78 Bus Build Thread Reply with quote

Also, how is your exhaust mounted? If it’s solid mounted to the body or engine carrier, this would allow the vibration to transmit into the chassis. This is true of any hard component that is solid mounted from the engine/transmission that is making contact with the body or chassis.


One test that easily confirms engine mount issues is to place a jack under the engine & raise it a bit. If the vibration stops, or reduces significantly, you have a problem with the mounts, or some part of the engine is making contact with the body.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 9:10 pm    Post subject: Re: TDI into '78 Bus Build Thread Reply with quote

To answer another one of Skills' questions, I deleted the mounts above the engine when I did the conversion.

After messing with some other stuff, I decided to try some more investigating of the noise. Bus was up high because I was crawling around under it looking closer at the mount. I started it up and revved it up with a stick and crawled back underneath.

I found that the carrier bar seems to have a resonance that sounds pretty similar to the noise I'm most trying to eliminate. If I grabbed it with both hands, it was slightly changed.

SO I think that this is perhaps the real problem? Or at least a good part of it. I guess the new mounts maybe reduced the vibration a little bit which reduced the noise a tad. If I can figure out how to keep this from resonating, I think I'll be a long way toward my goal.

Ideas?

I thought about covering it in dynamat type stuff. Maybe that'd do a little.

I also wonder about somehow adding some kind of separation between the bar and the mounts to the frame. Ideas there?

The carrier bar is bolted to the L shaped pieces that bolt to the "frame." Frame is in quotes because that is some more angle iron that is attached to the actual frame. There are pics of that early in this thread, but the reason was to beef that area way up and because it was rusted.

(Direct link to that part of this thread if you want to see it: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6741925#6741925 )

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 9:13 pm    Post subject: Re: TDI into '78 Bus Build Thread Reply with quote

TDCTDI wrote:
skills@eurocarsplus wrote:


i know what you mean by having longitudinal VAG cars in the fleet but i have had the snubber disintegrate on one and the only real issue is the engine was sloppy. no odd vibrations at all






I wasn’t even addressing any vibration issues, I was just letting him know about the inability of these mounts to deal with being pulled apart.



As far as vibrations go, a very common cause in the B5 chassis cars is incorrect axle length. The aftermarket axles tend to be longer than factory axles. This causes the axle to become a, we’ll say “hard link” between the engine/transmission and the body (through the steering). This can be an issue with yours since the mounts & brackets were not factory engineered.

While the bus is on the ground, grab the axles & push them in & out to see if they “float”. If they move back & forth 1/4”-1/2”, these aren’t your problem. If they feel solid, that’s probably where the vibration is transferring into the chassis.


I appreciate the ideas.

I can check this, but the axles have been the same for a long time, longer than the TDI engine has been there.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 9:14 pm    Post subject: Re: TDI into '78 Bus Build Thread Reply with quote

TDCTDI wrote:
Also, how is your exhaust mounted? If it’s solid mounted to the body or engine carrier, this would allow the vibration to transmit into the chassis. This is true of any hard component that is solid mounted from the engine/transmission that is making contact with the body or chassis.


One test that easily confirms engine mount issues is to place a jack under the engine & raise it a bit. If the vibration stops, or reduces significantly, you have a problem with the mounts, or some part of the engine is making contact with the body.


Exhaust is only mounted to the engine, not the body. Changed that a long time ago in this same effort to reduce noise. (I don't think that did anything, though.)

While crawling underneath today, I did look for any part of the engine that is touching the body and cannot find anything.

Not a bad idea to try lifting the engine a little.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 2:46 am    Post subject: Re: TDI into '78 Bus Build Thread Reply with quote

vwwestyman wrote:


I can check this, but the axles have been the same for a long time, longer than the TDI engine has been there.


Exactly my point. If the engine isn’t centered, then the transmission could be binding an axle.


Remove the axles & look for the telltale crushed sealing cap in the drive flange. With the axles out, start the bus & see if there’s any vibration.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 7:40 am    Post subject: Re: TDI into '78 Bus Build Thread Reply with quote

as TDC pointed out... anything at all from the engine bolted to the body without isolation? air box, intercooler etc?

your nose cone mount is taking the full weight of the drive line of you aren't using the rearmost mount.

early bay's dont have that bellhousing mount but the trans mount is MUCH bigger....diesel if you will.

i don't like the idea of having the engine support the exhaust. when i lay out swap exhausts i have hangers in the design. i use the mk1-mk3 style as they are pretty flexible. todays offerings are junk and you'll replace them every couple years but work well.

if you can find them, they made chain reinforced ones for the diesel cars

if all else fails you may have to find a way to isolate the hanger somehow without making it a wiggly mess that flops all over the place

when i asked for the pic of the trans mount i wanted to make sure the thick bar wasn't flipped. the holes are offset and if you put it on the wrong way it will hit that mount stud.

yours is correct. i had someone with a nasty vibration and they flipped the mount upon install. but yours is fine
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 7:54 am    Post subject: Re: TDI into '78 Bus Build Thread Reply with quote

I deleted the middle hanger system because I'd read a lot about them causing weird vibrations in conversions, and they weren't used in the Mexican mounting system. In fact, the bellhousing doesn't have provision for this.

My intake system is still fairly rudimentary. Embarassingly so. But the air box is strapped to the body on the passenger side. However, the tube from it to the turbo intake is a very flexible hose. I'm sure that isn't an issue.

The intercooler is currently sitting on the driver side battery tray. There are silicone connectors in between, but I'll try to isolate it to check it.

I'll also try to check all of the other suggestions and report back in the next few days.

But, as I said last night, I'm real sure that the problem is that carrier bar resonating with the vibrations of the engine. So I'd be real interested in suggestions on eliminating the resonating without turning it into a floppy mess!

Maybe going from the current mounts to the diesel mounts would be the ticket... But that is a $300 gamble at this point.

Ideas I've considered:

Drill a couple holes and fill it with expanding foam.

Weld a strip of flat bar along an edge.

Cover it completely with dynamat.

Open to other ideas that might help!
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 8:21 am    Post subject: Re: TDI into '78 Bus Build Thread Reply with quote

In diesel Vanagons, the engine mounts were bolted to carrier bars that ran longitudinally which also had a rubber isolator at each end. These also allowed the mounts to be located further forward on the engine block therefore sorta balancing the weight of the engine (to the point that the engine balances itself on those two mounts with the transmission removed) in order to reduce the weight of the driveline on the transmission mount.


You can also test this theory by placing a ratchet strap under the transmission & to the body on either side & tightening it to reduce the load on the transmission mount. If it works, then you need to come up with a new solution for that mount.


Your carrier bar looks really close to the frame rail, since it is not bolted to that frame rail, there may be enough vibration that it is impacting the frame rail ever so slightly & causing a shit load of noise.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 9:00 am    Post subject: Re: TDI into '78 Bus Build Thread Reply with quote

Good thoughts.

I think where the bar goes under the engine, is pretty close to the balance point.

I will double-check, but I do not believe the bar is contacting the body on either side. I actually spent a good bit of time making sure it was centered and there is a gap between the flat vertical part on the inside and the frame. But I can certainly fire it up and check for contact.

But, it IS bolted to the frame, it is just bolted to the outside. (Seen in the photographs.)

Any chance it might be enough to sandwich some rubber sheet or something in between where the bar is bolted to the L shaped hangers that are bolted to the frame?

I appreciate all the responses and ideas and things to check. I will need to scan over the recent comments and make a check list!
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 9:12 am    Post subject: Re: TDI into '78 Bus Build Thread Reply with quote

I wouldn’t try sandwiching layers of rubber between the bar & body as rubber compresses & would lead the the bolts loosening.


You could redesign the ends of the carrier bar to incorporate additional vibration dampening, but I wouldn’t do that until you have determined that to be the cause.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 9:58 am    Post subject: Re: TDI into '78 Bus Build Thread Reply with quote

I will definitely work through the suggestions to help determine for sure if the bar resonating is the cause.

But, I am pretty sure it's the cause. Like I said last night, when I was laying under the Bus with the motor running and revved up, the bar vibrating sounded very much like the noise I'm getting up front. Similar frequency, etc.

And it changed/was dampened a little bit when I grabbed on tight with both hands. So for sure ideas on how to permanently dampen the resonating of the bar would be appreciated.

Though I wouldn't want to drive it this way, I just had the idea that one more test might be to sandwich a thick layer of rubber in there between the L bracket and bar and just let it sit there with the engine going. Idea being, if that layer of rubber helps, then it would indicate that perhaps rethinking the mounting of the bar to the body would be beneficial.

Lets imagine I do determine this to be the solution... I would love ideas on how to accomplish it!
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:01 am    Post subject: Re: TDI into '78 Bus Build Thread Reply with quote

The most obvious way is to employ or replicate the diesel vanagon carrier bars. VW engineers must have had a good reason to come up with that convoluted mess.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 7:09 pm    Post subject: Re: TDI into '78 Bus Build Thread Reply with quote

I'm outside working on my checklist.

In the mean time, I think a question I had earlier was overlooked

If I skootch the drive train backwards a little, won't that result in the shift knob being closer to the dash when shifting to 1st or 3rd?
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 7:18 pm    Post subject: Re: TDI into '78 Bus Build Thread Reply with quote

Why would you want to do that?
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 9:37 pm    Post subject: Re: TDI into '78 Bus Build Thread Reply with quote

TDCTDI wrote:
Why would you want to do that?


Because Skills told me he always mounts the transmission such that the bull horns don't protrude in front of the thick mounting block.

Though if nothing is contacting anything (such as the nuts on the mount touching the frame) I can't think it would matter.

Anyway, on to the checklist:

*Axles both have lots of easy "float."

*When I lifted the oil pan a little with a jack, the noise may have actually gotten a little bit louder. Certainly didn't reduce any noise.

*MAYBE the heater outlet flange MIGHT be SLIGHTLY contacting the frame/gas tank area, but I don't think it is. No other contact that I can find.

*Engine bar is not contacting frame from the inside. Only contacting the L brackets.

*Ratchet strap lifting the front of the transmission made no change. I could see that gap closed, so I know it was lifted a bit.

*Verified it isn't the intercooler vibrating.

*Tried rubber isolator between the L bracket and bar. I did this by removing the bolts and shoving some rubber in there... I thought I had some thick rubber mat I could cut but couldn't find it. So instead I took a couple leftover interooler couplers and folded them in half and shoved them in between, so the bar just sat on top of them.

This one seemed to maybe actually have a result. I'll admit that I didn't try this before this last experiment, but when I thought I could hear a difference, I downloaded a decibel app and set it just in front of the back seat.

According to that, with the rubber in there, I saw 81 decibels. Then, without turning the engine off, I removed the rubber and reinstalled the bolts. With that, it went up to about 86 decibels. This was at about 2700 RPMs; would have been louder at a bit higher RPMs At idle, it was 77 decibels and with engine off, 51. (Bugs and stuff, I guess.)

I think this means I'm narrowing it down that the bar resonating is the cause of the noise I'm chasing. (Though I'm still very much open to other ideas or theories or things to test!)

I just need to figure out ways to reduce this resonance/vibration. Total reworking and doing something like changing to Vanagon mounts before my trip in August isn't an option. But if there are simpler ideas that might reduce it even a little bit, I would love to hear them.

Incidentally, I looked up the Vanagon diesel mounts to see how VW did it. I did see that in 83, they dropped the rubber mounts between the bars and the body.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 3:24 am    Post subject: Re: TDI into '78 Bus Build Thread Reply with quote

TDCTDI wrote:
In diesel Vanagons, the engine mounts were bolted to carrier bars that ran longitudinally which also had a rubber isolator at each end. These also allowed the mounts to be located further forward on the engine block therefore sorta balancing the weight of the engine (to the point that the engine balances itself on those two mounts with the transmission removed) in order to reduce the weight of the driveline on the transmission mount.


You can also test this theory by placing a ratchet strap under the transmission & to the body on either side & tightening it to reduce the load on the transmission mount. If it works, then you need to come up with a new solution for that mount.


Your carrier bar looks really close to the frame rail, since it is not bolted to that frame rail, there may be enough vibration that it is impacting the frame rail ever so slightly & causing a shit load of noise.

Uhhh, yes and no! with the double rubber mounted engine carrier bars. 1982 were, AND they floated so much it was necessary to fit a simple flat tension member under the pan between the two lowermost points.
1983 and LATER, (those bars that moved the assembly back ca.2 inches to gain room for the 5 speed box) ELIMINATED the frame mounted rubbers and mounted the bars solidly to the side and rear frame members. These then used a more comprehensive rubber motor mount. I believe it is only with the later brackets that the TDI guys are now adapting to hydraulic and some SAAB motor mount cushions.
WESTYMAN: Good you noticed the resonance. Resonance usually occurs when the part has a natural frequency close to the vibration generator. Best path to eliminate is to increase the MASS or possibly hang something on it to change its center of mass or MOMENT.
Being a casual observer of about 1.5 centuries of auto engineering, a while back I acquired a GM Saginaw 4 speed trans. This one has a large counterweight SUSPENDED from the tailhousing. I think this trans was sold new in Chevy VEGA, a 4 cylinder shaker from the early days, if ever they occurred in the 1970's!
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:27 am    Post subject: Re: TDI into '78 Bus Build Thread Reply with quote

I do remember some VW car (or cars) I've worked on having a heavy block hanging off the back of something kind of down low.

I think it may have been my 1990 VW Corrado, but may have been my dad's old '96 Passat. I just don't remember and I don't remember if it was mounted to the middle of the subframe or something else anymore.

So Alan, you're thinking that adding some weight to the bar may help with the resonance?
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