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Rebuild...... 1990 Air Conditioning
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djkeev Premium Member
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 5:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuild...... 1990 Air Conditioning Reply with quote

I spread my duct work out on the deck and figured out the assembly sequence.

I took a piece to the Van and fiddled with it coming to an understanding of how it SHOULD mount and how I will mount it.

The factory recall plates are useless to me.
There is simply too much cracked plastic with some bits missing.

I need to swing by the hardware store and get some heavy long mending plates to hand this up securely.

I have a plan....... stay tuned!

Dave
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 5:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuild...... 1990 Air Conditioning Reply with quote

i truly applaude your AC skills and prowess. i'll read carefully the details for the refurb on my stock '89 Westy destined for resale.

but i'm still so happy with my AC delete on the ratty '87 even in mid 90's with midwest humidity! easy access to engine, easy radiator cooling, lots of sleeper headroom and rear vision. i rolls down the window and experience the summer in all it's make-a-fatman-sweat glory. i think the critical factor is having the Westy top and roof rack to act as a 'safari roof' per the old Series I and II Land Rovers. i just never feel that hot in a Westy vs sweltering in my Civic plus the incessant thrumming in most vehicles that the Westy avoids.
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'89 Westy, gorgeous but hasn't been gone thru to drive anywhere.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 4:39 am    Post subject: Re: Rebuild...... 1990 Air Conditioning Reply with quote

No, no rewiring yet.
I wanted to get the A/C fully functional first before making any changes.
Don't make multiple changes at one time, do it in steps.

The SA modifications to A/C have been mentioned, is there a SA wiring diagram that lays out the system?
Or does someone have a sketch of changes one should make?
*Heavier Wire from Alternator to Fuse
*Upgraded Fuse
*Relays for each fan speed rather than putting the load on the fan switch.
*Something about the A/C clutch relay?
*Rewire how two fans are fed from one wire to prevent over load, I'm not clear how to do this.

I noticed the A/C relay, the tall black one with multiple plugs, gets frighteningly hot!

The left screw that holds multiple power feed wires after the fuse gets hot also.

I got home late last night and exhausted. We had family visiting and stayed too long at my daughters home.

Hence, No refrigerant level updates.

Dave
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campism
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:43 am    Post subject: Re: Rebuild...... 1990 Air Conditioning Reply with quote

djkeev wrote:
I have a plan.

The words my wife hates to hear me utter.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 2:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuild...... 1990 Air Conditioning Reply with quote

Hey Dave,

Any plans for writing up a list of parts, akin to the one cellerdoor put together some years back for his ‘86 Westy AC overhaul? Would be helpful to me and I’m sure a whole bunch of folks, as I know Eaton has superseded their previous line of EZ Clip AC hoses. I know you’ve listed links and sources/pricing for many other components in the thread (compressor, condenser, etc), but I didn’t seem to catch a list of the EZ Clip components and hose lengths, but I could have missed it…

Anyways, cheers and thanks for all the useful info provided! May your AC blow cold.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 4:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuild...... 1990 Air Conditioning Reply with quote

That’s my intention …….
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuild...... 1990 Air Conditioning Reply with quote

So my new house has no pavement. Some gravel
And a lot of grass.

This photo shows how much engine heat affects grass!

The Van was pointing out tires the photographer.
Under the radiator is dead, either side of the spare tire is dead under the engine is dead and under the exhaust pipe is dead from
Idling and charging the A/C !

Interesting how the radiator hot air diverted by the spare tire favors the drivers side……….

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuild...... 1990 Air Conditioning Reply with quote

Went shopping for duct work support hardware today, I’m excited!
I think it will work!

Dave
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 7:53 am    Post subject: Re: Rebuild...... 1990 Air Conditioning Reply with quote

Tall AC relay with multiple plugs. I'm guessing you are talking about J32 on Bentley 97.144 as it has a bunch of wires coming off it. The left hand portion in the schematic shows the relay controlling fan speed 3. Try running the AC with the speed on 4 which has it's own and separate relay and see if it still gets just as hot. If not, then I would abandon that portion of the tall relay and add a new 50 amp one.

*Rewire how two fans are fed from one wire to prevent over load, I'm not clear how to do this.
I'm not quite sure what you mean about running a single wire. Not having my system on the bench with the wiring hooked up, I can't tell, but am assuming there are separate wires going from the J157 evaporator speed 4 relay to the blower motors. You could eliminate these extra ones with a jumper at the blowers themselves. This might create some kind of imbalance with the series speed resistors, but don't know. Others can advise you on that. Whatever Mark AKA crazyvanman says, I would trust completely.

Of course, it you relocate the resistors outside the evaporator housing, then a single wire could feed the fans and provide all four speeds with fewer wires going up to the housing from the D pillar.

Screw with multiple leads getting hot. Again, don't know what they are and feed, but sounds like a busbar is needed.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:28 am    Post subject: Re: Rebuild...... 1990 Air Conditioning Reply with quote

Thanks Duncan, I'm still concentrated on getting the system delivering the coldest air.

To day it got up to 86°, I had varying inside air temps from 61° - 68°.
Plenum was 42° - 52°.

Having lost an unknown quantity of gas when the trinary switch blew apart, I've been playing the add some/take some out game seeking ultimate cold.
I'm wasting time that I don't have. I'm going to go back to square 1 and empty it out, evacuate it and put in the 15.9 ounces it calls for.

I need to replace a fitting anyway. My low pressure port is just touching the engine lid.

I'm going to put just a 90° there and put both high and low ports in the D pillar.

Dave
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 1:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuild...... 1990 Air Conditioning Reply with quote

Thank you very much for documenting all your work, this is a thread I know I will be referencing when the time comes to get my AC working.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 1:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuild...... 1990 Air Conditioning Reply with quote

thebaz67 wrote:
Thank you very much for documenting all your work, this is a thread I know I will be referencing when the time comes to get my AC working.


Happy to do it, plus when I post my changes, others won't have charge ports hitting the engine cover!

They will be able to install the parts that are proven to work on the first try.

Dave
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:33 am    Post subject: Re: Rebuild...... 1990 Air Conditioning Reply with quote

I am being encouraged by dobryan to get some real world temperatures inside my Van.

It it quite easy to get front cab temperatures while driving and even plenum air temperatures.

I'm going to get rear A/C intake air temperatures.
(Though today is forecast to be mild with no need for A/C! Laughing )

Because it is a work Van the rear mattress is removed for tools and materials.
As a result a lot of engine heat is readily transferred through the exposed metal and plastic engine cover.

A good working A/C unit can only be expected to drop 30° ....... maybe 35° across the Evaporator coil.

I may just be chasing Unicorn Horns trying to get a plenum output air temperature in the upper 30’s that I cannot realistically achieve without better engine area insulation.

When it is 86° ambient and my cab is 68° with a 47° plenum what is my return air temperature? Could it easily be near 80° with radiant engine heat?
If it is, I can not expect any better plenum air temperatures.
If it is verified to be that hot, I should next install the mattress pad and see how much the intake air and plenum air temperature change.

Dave
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 3:25 am    Post subject: Re: Rebuild...... 1990 Air Conditioning Reply with quote

On a big vehicle like a T3 , 30F delta will be good. Make sure you are high idle , like 1500-2000 for 15 minutes to take the measurement consistently.

If you get > 30F delta and low to high pressure ratio of about 4-5x run it there and spend life time somewhere else.

Laughing


On edit :
That’s for R134A , I think red Tek runs a lower ratio?
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 3:38 am    Post subject: Re: Rebuild...... 1990 Air Conditioning Reply with quote

Abscate wrote:
On a big vehicle like a T3 , 30F delta will be good. Make sure you are high idle , like 1500-2000 for 15 minutes to take the measurement consistently.

If you get > 30F delta and low to high pressure ratio of about 4-5x run it there and spend life time somewhere else.

Laughing


On edit :
That’s for R134A , I think red Tek runs a lower ratio?


👍 I get my temperatures doing real world driving, not sitting in the driveway with a box fan blowing.

Dave
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 5:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuild...... 1990 Air Conditioning Reply with quote

I picked up more supplies for my A/C duct repairs today.
In a few days I’ll see if it all comes together and stays on the ceiling!

Tomorrow I think I’ll Wash them well and bleach them…… just in case the PO was a smoker.
God I HATE that stale tobacco smell!

Dave
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuild...... 1990 Air Conditioning Reply with quote

djkeev wrote:
Abscate wrote:
On a big vehicle like a T3 , 30F delta will be good. Make sure you are high idle , like 1500-2000 for 15 minutes to take the measurement consistently.

If you get > 30F delta and low to high pressure ratio of about 4-5x run it there and spend life time somewhere else.

Laughing


On edit :
That’s for R134A , I think red Tek runs a lower ratio?


👍 I get my temperatures doing real world driving, not sitting in the driveway with a box fan blowing.

Dave


You introduce a huge number of new variables when you do this. If you keep it simple, you cam get the charge snicked in just right and chase the elusive 45 F delta
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 7:12 am    Post subject: Re: Rebuild...... 1990 Air Conditioning Reply with quote

I finally got around to my A/C ducts this morning but sadly the long one became a mouse house sitting on my deck!

Well…… Mrs Mouse was evicted and her home destroyed, urban renewal…….

I Simple Greened them and now they are drying from a bleach bath.

Maybe later…… maybe another day.

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Dave
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Last edited by djkeev on Sun Jul 25, 2021 5:42 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 1:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuild...... 1990 Air Conditioning Reply with quote

Well, the heat has returned but without the killer humidity!

It was mid 80’s today.

I went for a ride and did some temperature checks.

Ambient 85°
Drivers Seat 66.8°
Plenum out put (no duct work) 51.4°
Evaporator Intake Grill 87.8°

That's a 36.4° drop across the Evaporator Coil.
I don't think that I can expect better.

Now, this is with a bare engine area. No rear mattress. Bare engine cover and exposed metal floor.
I shot some temperatures in that area, they ranged from 92° to 102° up to 105° after sitting but a minute or two.

So, I thought, put the mattress back in, insulation! Right?

WRONG! So very Wrong.
After 15-20 minute of driving the same route .....
The intake grill dropped by maybe a degree or so but nothing dramatic.
The foam must simply transfer the heat right through it.

I imagine on a days drive the air would eventually win? Maybe not. Heat is a formidable opponent.

Sensor bulb location

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Mattress in ...... unless that missing D pillar cover is a Jet Stream of heat?

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuild...... 1990 Air Conditioning Reply with quote

Well....... lots of things are happening!

There is a lot of discussion on why electrical fires happen in Vanagons equipped with the "D" Pillar A/C.
I'll add sone links......

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=757441

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=756751

It will be interesting to see where this all lands!

Today I installed my ceiling duct work from the rear Evaporator to the front distribution manifold.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I will make a thread on how I hung this broken system of ducts and can assure you, they are NOT going to fall down again!

Here is the link ..........
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=757559

I've noticed that many people speak ill of and have strong anti duct feelings.

I've run for two weeks now with no duct work.
It works, the Van cools off but I run the fan on three most of the time, sometimes on four.
Speed two barely moves air (at least in my opinion).
My Wife keeps a hair tie on my shift lever just like when we were dating in the early 1970’s and my cars were without A/C. We ran everywhere with open windows! The interior air movement created by the fans in the Van is that severe without duct work.
Ah....... youthful memories........

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Anyway, without duct work I found the cold air on the back of my neck to be rather annoying.

With the Duct work installed it is like I entered the 21st Century!

Now?
I can use speed 2 and still have gentle cold air flow!
I only have speeds 4, 3 & 2 because I'm using a three speed heater fan switch.
I want to fix my four speed switch now so I have speed 1 to use too!

I've only taken one drive with the front A/C ducts hooked up.

I absolutely LOVE IT!!!!!!

It was time well spent to hang the duct work!

Dave
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Last edited by djkeev on Fri Jul 30, 2021 6:28 am; edited 4 times in total
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