Author |
Message |
Chickensoup Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2018 Posts: 5368 Location: Good Hope, GA
|
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 7:24 pm Post subject: Re: EFI Intakes for ferty hersers/12 hundri sicies |
|
|
Dauz, thanks for the links. I checked them out and everything looks VERY nice however, they are a little pricey not gonna lie. it would be kinda odd using some 500 dollar throttle bodies on a 30 dollar set of intakes and injectors lol.
On the plastic discussion... All i know is im gonna try out some form of nylon. and a phenolic spacer. I started digging into the nylon filiment research but i put it on the backburner. but now that im done building my nylon printer, its probably time for me to make a choice.
the blend part mentioned is very interesting tho. bringing out the best of both worlds. ill report back with some more ideas here soon on which nylon i think would work. i dont want these thing to crack over time which is my largest concern. so maybe find something really stiff to keep vibration from causing sway or find something with good twist properties?
thanks _________________ -'85 c10 5.3 LS, 222 cam, long tubes, x pipe, 3 inch spin tech's
-'05 B5.5 TDI Wagon 17in sport rims ;EGR + BSM + ASV Delete, Stage-2 Tune, straight pipe
'65 Tourist Delivery Build
'66 RIP
'69 RIP
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" |
|
Back to top |
|
|
raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21510 Location: Oklahoma City
|
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 9:04 pm Post subject: Re: EFI Intakes for ferty hersers/12 hundri sicies |
|
|
Chickensoup wrote: |
Dauz, thanks for the links. I checked them out and everything looks VERY nice however, they are a little pricey not gonna lie. it would be kinda odd using some 500 dollar throttle bodies on a 30 dollar set of intakes and injectors lol.
On the plastic discussion... All i know is im gonna try out some form of nylon. and a phenolic spacer. I started digging into the nylon filiment research but i put it on the backburner. but now that im done building my nylon printer, its probably time for me to make a choice.
the blend part mentioned is very interesting tho. bringing out the best of both worlds. ill report back with some more ideas here soon on which nylon i think would work. i dont want these thing to crack over time which is my largest concern. so maybe find something really stiff to keep vibration from causing sway or find something with good twist properties?
thanks |
Nylon....is "tough"...meaning its pretty stiff as long as you have good cross section...but its not brittle. You can whack it with a bat and it gives but does not crack.
Understand though...you need a high heat nylon...and avoid nylon 6. Use nylon 6.6 or some of the other formulations...nylon 11 or 12. Nylon 6 still has moisture absorption issues.
Nylon does fine with oils and fuels. It blends well with carbon and glass for better rigidity.
pay close attention to local humidity and your drying step with nylons.
This is interesting...PAKV.....nylon Kevlar...with a 490* F melt temp
https://filamatrix.com/product/pakv-nylon-kevlar-f...-QQAvD_BwE
and this.....is a variant of what intake manifolds are already made from
https://www.3dxtech.com/product/thermax-ppe-ps/
it is PPS+PS (polyphenylene ether + poly styrene)......extruder nizzle temps of 554*F to 608* F......thats what I'm talking about!
Ray |
|
Back to top |
|
|
mark tucker Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009 Posts: 23937 Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
|
Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 9:58 am Post subject: Re: EFI Intakes for ferty hersers/12 hundri sicies |
|
|
you could probably just make one thats direct injected.....that way the intake is just a air funnel eye would think that wood be kinda eazy putting the injectors where the 2nd spark plugs locations are machined. of coarse a piston made for it would be nice too...and Im sore there are some out there that wouldent be too hard to make work. hell my 2.4 is only 88mm bore.I think the gm 2.0 direct enjected turbo is84, 85 or 86mm eye kaint remember at the moment. lotsa that stuff on flebay.I thought about putting the DI head on my 2.4( witch came along 3 years lator on the engine) more power more tq better millage, and the cr gets bumped from 10.4 to 11.somethen.( that would be a piston change too I think. DI works great for higher crs'. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Chickensoup Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2018 Posts: 5368 Location: Good Hope, GA
|
Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 5:11 pm Post subject: Re: EFI Intakes for ferty hersers/12 hundri sicies |
|
|
OF course DI is better. My daily is a DI. But thats not the kinda of tech you invest into a 4 O well actually, if I had the tools I would do it but you'd have to weld in a boss for the injector. And probably cut some fins. And modify tin. And weld in a bracket to hold the injector down really good(because cylinders pressure is a new force acting on it).
DI is better, but not for this project. _________________ -'85 c10 5.3 LS, 222 cam, long tubes, x pipe, 3 inch spin tech's
-'05 B5.5 TDI Wagon 17in sport rims ;EGR + BSM + ASV Delete, Stage-2 Tune, straight pipe
'65 Tourist Delivery Build
'66 RIP
'69 RIP
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" |
|
Back to top |
|
|
modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26776 Location: Colorado Springs
|
Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 5:42 pm Post subject: Re: EFI Intakes for ferty hersers/12 hundri sicies |
|
|
good answer |
|
Back to top |
|
|
mark tucker Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009 Posts: 23937 Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
|
Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:20 am Post subject: Re: EFI Intakes for ferty hersers/12 hundri sicies |
|
|
not sure what boss needs welded....but if your going to the trubble of putting injection on it and want somethen different...and not have to worry about any reversion issues in non exzistant IR port....eye wood go DI. but since your not...you could also use 2 directional injectors in your intakes...I think |
|
Back to top |
|
|
mark tucker Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009 Posts: 23937 Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
|
Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:01 pm Post subject: Re: EFI Intakes for ferty hersers/12 hundri sicies |
|
|
hmm Ill bet you could make some nice flowing turbo ends too!! |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Dauz Samba Member
Joined: January 05, 2010 Posts: 1790
|
Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:53 pm Post subject: Re: EFI Intakes for ferty hersers/12 hundri sicies |
|
|
Yeah, Jenvey is not cheap for sure.. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Chickensoup Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2018 Posts: 5368 Location: Good Hope, GA
|
Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:19 pm Post subject: Re: EFI Intakes for ferty hersers/12 hundri sicies |
|
|
raygreenwood wrote: |
Chickensoup wrote: |
Dauz, thanks for the links. I checked them out and everything looks VERY nice however, they are a little pricey not gonna lie. it would be kinda odd using some 500 dollar throttle bodies on a 30 dollar set of intakes and injectors lol.
On the plastic discussion... All i know is im gonna try out some form of nylon. and a phenolic spacer. I started digging into the nylon filiment research but i put it on the backburner. but now that im done building my nylon printer, its probably time for me to make a choice.
the blend part mentioned is very interesting tho. bringing out the best of both worlds. ill report back with some more ideas here soon on which nylon i think would work. i dont want these thing to crack over time which is my largest concern. so maybe find something really stiff to keep vibration from causing sway or find something with good twist properties?
thanks |
Nylon....is "tough"...meaning its pretty stiff as long as you have good cross section...but its not brittle. You can whack it with a bat and it gives but does not crack.
Understand though...you need a high heat nylon...and avoid nylon 6. Use nylon 6.6 or some of the other formulations...nylon 11 or 12. Nylon 6 still has moisture absorption issues.
Nylon does fine with oils and fuels. It blends well with carbon and glass for better rigidity.
pay close attention to local humidity and your drying step with nylons.
This is interesting...PAKV.....nylon Kevlar...with a 490* F melt temp
https://filamatrix.com/product/pakv-nylon-kevlar-f...-QQAvD_BwE
and this.....is a variant of what intake manifolds are already made from
https://www.3dxtech.com/product/thermax-ppe-ps/
it is PPS+PS (polyphenylene ether + poly styrene)......extruder nizzle temps of 554*F to 608* F......thats what I'm talking about!
Ray |
awesome thanks! luckily i own a box that I store the filament in, and it keeps it nice and dry. because as you know, lots of these plastics are hydroscopic. Out of the two you linked, which one do you think has the best strength and twist characteristics? Unfortunately, the sp vw manifold has a poor basic design of being tall and skinny, unlike many other engines.
thanks _________________ -'85 c10 5.3 LS, 222 cam, long tubes, x pipe, 3 inch spin tech's
-'05 B5.5 TDI Wagon 17in sport rims ;EGR + BSM + ASV Delete, Stage-2 Tune, straight pipe
'65 Tourist Delivery Build
'66 RIP
'69 RIP
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Chickensoup Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2018 Posts: 5368 Location: Good Hope, GA
|
Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:23 pm Post subject: Re: EFI Intakes for ferty hersers/12 hundri sicies |
|
|
mark tucker wrote: |
hmm Ill bet you could make some nice flowing turbo ends too!! |
true. as long as the baseplate seals well. which could easily be fixed with a c channel and a seal.
the nice thing about a single port tho is you can just run a pipe directly into the throttle body and clamp it. _________________ -'85 c10 5.3 LS, 222 cam, long tubes, x pipe, 3 inch spin tech's
-'05 B5.5 TDI Wagon 17in sport rims ;EGR + BSM + ASV Delete, Stage-2 Tune, straight pipe
'65 Tourist Delivery Build
'66 RIP
'69 RIP
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" |
|
Back to top |
|
|
raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21510 Location: Oklahoma City
|
Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:28 pm Post subject: Re: EFI Intakes for ferty hersers/12 hundri sicies |
|
|
Chickensoup wrote: |
raygreenwood wrote: |
Chickensoup wrote: |
Dauz, thanks for the links. I checked them out and everything looks VERY nice however, they are a little pricey not gonna lie. it would be kinda odd using some 500 dollar throttle bodies on a 30 dollar set of intakes and injectors lol.
On the plastic discussion... All i know is im gonna try out some form of nylon. and a phenolic spacer. I started digging into the nylon filiment research but i put it on the backburner. but now that im done building my nylon printer, its probably time for me to make a choice.
the blend part mentioned is very interesting tho. bringing out the best of both worlds. ill report back with some more ideas here soon on which nylon i think would work. i dont want these thing to crack over time which is my largest concern. so maybe find something really stiff to keep vibration from causing sway or find something with good twist properties?
thanks |
Nylon....is "tough"...meaning its pretty stiff as long as you have good cross section...but its not brittle. You can whack it with a bat and it gives but does not crack.
Understand though...you need a high heat nylon...and avoid nylon 6. Use nylon 6.6 or some of the other formulations...nylon 11 or 12. Nylon 6 still has moisture absorption issues.
Nylon does fine with oils and fuels. It blends well with carbon and glass for better rigidity.
pay close attention to local humidity and your drying step with nylons.
This is interesting...PAKV.....nylon Kevlar...with a 490* F melt temp
https://filamatrix.com/product/pakv-nylon-kevlar-f...-QQAvD_BwE
and this.....is a variant of what intake manifolds are already made from
https://www.3dxtech.com/product/thermax-ppe-ps/
it is PPS+PS (polyphenylene ether + poly styrene)......extruder nizzle temps of 554*F to 608* F......thats what I'm talking about!
Ray |
awesome thanks! luckily i own a box that I store the filament in, and it keeps it nice and dry. because as you know, lots of these plastics are hydroscopic. Out of the two you linked, which one do you think has the best strength and twist characteristics? Unfortunately, the sp vw manifold has a poor basic design of being tall and skinny, unlike many other engines.
thanks |
I will look at the specs and have a few people to ask.
Also...its not JUST the storage of the raw material. If you Google it you will find a thousand people only speaking of storage. Most say under 50%. Really 40% should be your cap unless you have a GOOD thermohygrometer.
While processing...keep humidity under 40%. Lower is better....it can entrain moisture while its molten. Watch your ambient humidity.
Ray |
|
Back to top |
|
|
mark tucker Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009 Posts: 23937 Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
|
Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 8:39 am Post subject: Re: EFI Intakes for ferty hersers/12 hundri sicies |
|
|
if your woried ablut tall and skiney....add some ribs. BBQ sauce is optional. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
panel Samba Member
Joined: December 02, 2001 Posts: 1090 Location: Victoria B.C. Canada
|
Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 9:44 am Post subject: Re: EFI Intakes for ferty hersers/12 hundri sicies |
|
|
Just curious why you chose to put the tab for the fuel rail under the tab on the manifold as opposed to having it on top ? _________________ My '65-Subaru EJ20 Turbo conversion |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Chickensoup Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2018 Posts: 5368 Location: Good Hope, GA
|
Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 6:58 pm Post subject: Re: EFI Intakes for ferty hersers/12 hundri sicies |
|
|
mark tucker wrote: |
if your woried ablut tall and skiney....add some ribs. BBQ sauce is optional. |
imma add the bbq. make the engine bay smell effing delicous when it be turnt up. _________________ -'85 c10 5.3 LS, 222 cam, long tubes, x pipe, 3 inch spin tech's
-'05 B5.5 TDI Wagon 17in sport rims ;EGR + BSM + ASV Delete, Stage-2 Tune, straight pipe
'65 Tourist Delivery Build
'66 RIP
'69 RIP
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Chickensoup Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2018 Posts: 5368 Location: Good Hope, GA
|
Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 7:03 pm Post subject: Re: EFI Intakes for ferty hersers/12 hundri sicies |
|
|
panel wrote: |
Just curious why you chose to put the tab for the fuel rail under the tab on the manifold as opposed to having it on top ? |
arent you from STF? anyways i knew someone would bring this up. the issue is, the stupid injectors are so long the tab either goes ontop on bellow as seen in the side view image. if i put the tab(5mm or 6mm thick) below, it hits the injector. i plan on redoing it here soon, but wanted to mock the injector up and everything.
the other issue is, you gotta get a bolt in there somehow
designing even simple objects like these take a whole lot more revisions than most expect.
thanks for lookin out! _________________ -'85 c10 5.3 LS, 222 cam, long tubes, x pipe, 3 inch spin tech's
-'05 B5.5 TDI Wagon 17in sport rims ;EGR + BSM + ASV Delete, Stage-2 Tune, straight pipe
'65 Tourist Delivery Build
'66 RIP
'69 RIP
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" |
|
Back to top |
|
|
panel Samba Member
Joined: December 02, 2001 Posts: 1090 Location: Victoria B.C. Canada
|
Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 10:32 pm Post subject: Re: EFI Intakes for ferty hersers/12 hundri sicies |
|
|
Thanks for the answer. Seems factory and aftermarket all bolt on top. Doesn't mean you have to be like all the other sheep. I'm definitely not one to follow. Seems all my stuff is one off
Anyway....I cut a stock dual port head in half once to check the aim of my injectors when I was building a CIS injection set up years ago. Maybe CAD up a head for those intakes and then you can see where the fuel will spray ? Back of the valve or the wall or......
_________________ My '65-Subaru EJ20 Turbo conversion |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Chickensoup Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2018 Posts: 5368 Location: Good Hope, GA
|
Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 10:26 am Post subject: Re: EFI Intakes for ferty hersers/12 hundri sicies |
|
|
Hmm. I do have a rotted 40hp head i could cut in half. It will be a little difficult it being a sp but doable. Thanks for the idea! _________________ -'85 c10 5.3 LS, 222 cam, long tubes, x pipe, 3 inch spin tech's
-'05 B5.5 TDI Wagon 17in sport rims ;EGR + BSM + ASV Delete, Stage-2 Tune, straight pipe
'65 Tourist Delivery Build
'66 RIP
'69 RIP
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Chickensoup Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2018 Posts: 5368 Location: Good Hope, GA
|
Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2021 5:57 pm Post subject: Re: EFI Intakes for ferty hersers/12 hundri sicies |
|
|
Well I printed my first test piece in standard nylon filament. Overall, it turned out pretty good for the first run. The supports really messed up the injector boss and fuel rail tab. So imma have to fix the support settings. But with a little sanding you won't even be able to tell these are printed.
And holy baby Jesus. These intakes are STRONG! _________________ -'85 c10 5.3 LS, 222 cam, long tubes, x pipe, 3 inch spin tech's
-'05 B5.5 TDI Wagon 17in sport rims ;EGR + BSM + ASV Delete, Stage-2 Tune, straight pipe
'65 Tourist Delivery Build
'66 RIP
'69 RIP
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Ian Samba Moderator
Joined: August 28, 2002 Posts: 4930 Location: 713
|
Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2021 7:06 pm Post subject: Re: EFI Intakes for ferty hersers/12 hundri sicies |
|
|
Nylon can be a nightmare to print. Do you have an enclosed printer? I highly recommend using Cura to do tree supports, they snap off and leave no trace behind.
These folks claim PLA works for carburetors here:
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4304481
Translated from Portuguese:
Quote: |
Results obtained so far: The ABS material can't handle the gasoline attack. The PETG material showed excellent chemical and thermal stability in the short term, but after a few days it begins to crack, probably due to the reaction with gasoline. The PLA is the material that best behaves with gasoline, but has low softening temperature. No ethanol tests have been performed so far. Regarding leaks, no leaks were found between layers when 4 perimeters were used. The use of threaded latch on the tank stoplet, inlet tube and needle also ensure a good seal. |
Ofcourse, heat will be your big enemy. I'm not convinced any printable material will withstand cylinder head temperatures that's not metal. _________________ All your Buses are belong to us.
Love and good roads!
IN LOVING MEMORY OF ROB CRESS 1968-2012 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21510 Location: Oklahoma City
|
Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2021 7:26 pm Post subject: Re: EFI Intakes for ferty hersers/12 hundri sicies |
|
|
Ian wrote: |
Nylon can be a nightmare to print. Do you have an enclosed printer? I highly recommend using Cura to do tree supports, they snap off and leave no trace behind.
These folks claim PLA works for carburetors here:
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4304481
Translated from Portuguese:
Quote: |
Results obtained so far: The ABS material can't handle the gasoline attack. The PETG material showed excellent chemical and thermal stability in the short term, but after a few days it begins to crack, probably due to the reaction with gasoline. The PLA is the material that best behaves with gasoline, but has low softening temperature. No ethanol tests have been performed so far. Regarding leaks, no leaks were found between layers when 4 perimeters were used. The use of threaded latch on the tank stoplet, inlet tube and needle also ensure a good seal. |
Ofcourse, heat will be your big enemy. I'm not convinced any printable material will withstand cylinder head temperatures that's not metal. |
Yes...there are several than can sustain constant 500+ heat that rival metal. The problem with them is COST.
Looking at the translated text (thank you!).....While PLA works ok with gasoline...it does not behave with heat, ethanol or water....especially in combination.
PLA...in all of its forms except certain alloys...is actually biodegradable from the same protozoa that affect nylon 6 in suspension components.
PETG....has poor heat stability and mainly in dimensional/structural change. Chemically its pretty good. close enough to polycarbonate that its generally CALLED "poor mans polycarbonate".
Its max stable temp is right at 165* F....as it starts to flow around 185* F.
Chickensoup,....nice looking part!
What kind of nylon?
Ray |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|