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Manx1173
Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2005
Posts: 146
Location: Missouri
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 Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:16 am Post subject: Re: Rebel Wire Questions and Pictures |
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| Jeremy1984 wrote: |
I know I'm probably supposed to stick to Beetle pics on here, but it all kinda overlaps in my head. Here's a picture I took of a Beetle speedo and made a quick diagram if anyone needs it. Most of them are pretty similar in function though (bug, bus, thing, ghia...)
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I have wired my Meyers Manx and the turn indicator light in the dash is not illuminating with the turn signals (turn signals work). I have confirmed that the light bulb and socket works and there is 12V at the speedo (alt. light and oil light illuminate with engine off). Can anyone familiar with the Rebel harness give me some suggestions of other things to check/try? It appears that I am not getting a ground from the relay to the light with the turn signal. Thanks |
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ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15982
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:54 am Post subject: Re: Rebel Wire Questions and Pictures |
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| Manx1173 wrote: |
| I have wired my Meyers Manx and the turn indicator light in the dash is not illuminating with the turn signals (turn signals work). I have confirmed that the light bulb and socket works and there is 12V at the speedo (alt. light and oil light illuminate with engine off). Can anyone familiar with the Rebel harness give me some suggestions of other things to check/try? It appears that I am not getting a ground from the relay to the light with the turn signal. Thanks |
You are correct that the wire from the indicator lamp bulb holder to the flasher relay 49a is for grounding the indicator lamp, but it is not the flasher relay that grounds that wire. The ground path is from the 49a terminal, thru the turn signal (or E-Flasher) switch, thru the corner bulb filaments to the ground of the light assembly. The indicator lamp will flash in opposite cadence with the corner lamps. This means when the corner lamps are ON, the indicator lamp is OFF. When the corner lamps go OFF the indicator lamp will ground thru them.
First question, are you running 21W turn signal lamps in the corners? Using low watt (2W) LED turn signal lamps in the corners will cause issue with the 2W speedometer indicator lamp. The stock arrangement only works because the indicator lamp is much lower wattage than the corner lamps. With the stock circuit, the wattage of the corner lamps is much larger than the 2W indicator lamp. This means the 2W flowing thru the indicator cannot provide enough current to warm up the corner lamp filaments. But when you try to run 2W LED corner lamps the current coming from the indicatpr lamp is much closer to what is needed to keep the corner lamps ON. The lights stop working as expected.
If you are running LED corner lamps, you need an LED-compatible flasher relay. The stock VW relay will not work with LEDs. Also, the flasher relay that comes with the Rebel harness may or may not work well with the way the VW wiring is done. The relay needs to be tolerant of positive current coming in on the flasher relay's OUTPUT terminal.
Here are two earlier diagrams showing how to wire a 3-prong and 2-prong flasher relay:
If the corner lamps and E-Flasher all work as expected with the turn indicator lamp removed/disconnected and then they stop working or the indicator lamp does not work... if usually indicates the flasher relay is not compatible or you are running an arrangement well outside of stock. Are there any other changes to the stock wiring? LEDs, different light assemblies? Different watt bulbs?
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AshMan40
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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road  }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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Manx1173
Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2005
Posts: 146
Location: Missouri
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| Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:18 pm Post subject: Re: Rebel Wire Questions and Pictures |
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| Thanks for the reply. I am using a Rebel harness with stock VW switches. The front indicators are not VW (with regular bulbs) but the rear are with standard dual filament bulbs (no LED). I had it wired per the diagram in your post (the bottom one with the two prong flasher...I got the kit from Rebel) and the flashers and turn signals worked but not the indicator light. I also noticed that the when I had the flasher relay hooked up to the indicator (I have it separate from the turn signal relay) that the indicator light was on when the key was off (i.e., had power and was grounded back through the oil/gen wiring). |
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ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15982
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 6:47 am Post subject: Re: Rebel Wire Questions and Pictures |
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| Manx1173 wrote: |
| Thanks for the reply. I am using a Rebel harness with stock VW switches. The front indicators are not VW (with regular bulbs) but the rear are with standard dual filament bulbs (no LED). |
So you are saying all four corner lamps are 21W (or 25W) incandescent bulbs, right?
| Manx1173 wrote: |
| I had it wired per the diagram in your post (the bottom one with the two prong flasher...I got the kit from Rebel) and the flashers and turn signals worked but not the indicator light. I also noticed that the when I had the flasher relay hooked up to the indicator (I have it separate from the turn signal relay) that the indicator light was on when the key was off (i.e., had power and was grounded back through the oil/gen wiring). |
So you are running two flasher relays? One for the turn signals and a separate one for E-Flashers? And you are trying to share the single indicator lamp in the speedometer between both flasher relays?
First thing, not all flasher relays are the same. There are some 2-prong flasher relays that do work in the VW circuit, but many do not. I don't know what make/model flasher relay came with the Rebel harness or the 2nd one you added. Make sure it is compatible with the Beetle's circuit. You may be chasing your tail trying to get a flasher relay working which can never work in the Beetle's wiring.
The current flow thru the indicator lamp depends on whether the ignition switch is ON or OFF. Obviously, if the ignition switch is OFF you cannot use your turn signals, so there should never be a case where the turn signal switch will cause your indicator lamp to be powered by the flasher relay and grounded by the other devices in the ignition circuit.
But the E-Flasher switch has constant 12v as a power source (#30) and can be turned ON with the ignition switch in the ON or OFF position. When the ignition switch is ON, the speedometer indicator lamp is powered by 12v+ from the wire at the bottom of the speedometer. The current flows thru the indicator lamp and finds a ground thru the corner lamps in between pulses. You can see this as the indicator lamp flashing in opposite cadence with the corner lamps since it grounds while the corner lamps are OFF. The same thing happens when the E-Flashers are turned ON while the ignition switch is also ON.
But when the ignition switch is OFF and the E-Flasher switch is turned ON, the indicator lamp becomes a 5th corner lamp. When this happens the speedometer indicator lamp flashes in sync with the corner lamps. It is powered by the 49a output terminal of the flasher relay. The current flows from the flasher relay back into the ignition switch circuit. Anything that is normally powered by the ignition switch (eg. ignition coil, choke, idle cutoff solenoid, etc.) becomes a path to ground for the speedometer indicator lamp. The power flowing thru the indicator lamp is only 2W so none of these devices will be fully powered, but there will be a path for the bulb to ground.
_________________
AshMan40
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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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Manx1173
Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2005
Posts: 146
Location: Missouri
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| Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 5:10 pm Post subject: Re: Rebel Wire Questions and Pictures |
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| I really appreciate your time! The fronts are marked 21W and the rears are 1157 all incandescent. Yes, i have two separate circuits for turn signals and hazards. The turn signal flasher is DOT 550 and the hazard flasher is DOT 552. I checked the hazard wiring and i have current to the 49A terminal with the key off. Should that happen through the flasher? All indicators work as they should but the speedo light remains unlit. Yes, i was trying to use the single speedo bulb for both circuits but it doesn't work with either (i have tried both independently). |
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jetmech
Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2019
Posts: 135
Location: Hamilton ON, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:06 am Post subject: Re: Rebel Wire Questions and Pictures |
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Looking to finally connect a tach into my daughters bug, I purchased the deluxe harness that already has the purple wire in it that runs from the engine bay to the dash, but I'm a little unclear as to how to go about hooking it all up, the tach has a white wire for the lights witch is pretty straight forward that I would connect that to the dash light switch 58b, the black wire is labelled ground no explanation needed, but there is 2 other wires one is green labelled signal source I do believe that gets connected to the purple tach wire that then gets connected to the + side of the ignition coil or does it go somewhere else, then there is this red wire that is labelled as 12v switched power. Am I missing something?
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74' Super Beetle |
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mclumber1
Samba Member
Joined: June 22, 2008
Posts: 313
Location: Henderson, NV
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| Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:35 pm Post subject: Re: Rebel Wire Questions and Pictures |
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I emailed the following to Rebel Wire but I didn't get a response, so I'm posting it here.
I'm making good progress on my install! The information you've posted on the thesamba has been incredibly helpful. I do have a few questions that hopefully you can provide some guidance on.
I have the same hazard switch as this diagram you posted on the thesamba, and I intend to wire it the same way. So it looks like I'll only route the brown wire (hazard flasher) to the switch, and then install a separate ground wire, and also string wires from the left and right turn single switches to the hazard switch. Is that correct? On the diagram below, you also show a separate brown wire connected to the flasher, but I'm confused if or where I wire that one.
And to verify, if I go with this method, the 30, 15, and X terminals (or plus, I can't tell with my hazard switch) would be unused?
Another question I have is in regards to the charging system. The way I intend to route my larger red wires would be this:
From the alternator to the starter
From the starter to the positive battery terminal
From the positive battery terminal to the main red wire in the harness
Is this an acceptable way to route the charging system wires? If so, should I place the fusible link (or large 60A fuse/circuit breaker) in between the positive battery terminal and the main red wire on the harness?
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1968 Beetle |
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jetmech
Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2019
Posts: 135
Location: Hamilton ON, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 6:49 am Post subject: Re: Rebel Wire Questions and Pictures |
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As for the hazard switch I am not to sure, I think ashman could answer that one, but for the charging system that is how I installed mine and I have had no problems with it, but yes do get a 60 Amp circuit breaker between the battery and the main harness, if you call rebel they would be able to answer your question about the switch setup.
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74' Super Beetle |
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ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15982
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:31 am Post subject: Re: Rebel Wire Questions and Pictures |
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The stock VW E-Flasher switch has two separate circuits inside.
1) Power source selection for flasher relay. Two power sources are connected to the E-Flasher switch: #15 (ignition switched power) and #30 (constant battery 12v). The former is used by the turn signals as you only want them powered while the ignition switch is ON. The E-Flashers use the #30 since you want to be able to turn on the E-Flasher regardless of whether the ignition switch is ON or not. The output of the selection is passed out the "+" terminal. These three terminals are part of the same circuit and separate from all the other terminals on the E-Flasher switch.
2) Connecting the flasher relay output (49a) to the L and R turn signal corner lamp circuits. When the E-Flasher switch is OFF these three terminals are isolated from each other. When the E-Flasher switch is turned ON the #49a terminal is shorted together with the both the L and R circuits. This allows the flasher relay to power all four corner lamps.
I asked Jeremy1984 about how the E-Flasher system was used with the Rebel wiring harness, this was his reply to my questions...
| Jeremy1984 wrote: |
| ashman40 wrote: |
2) I believe the Rebel wiring fuse box has an flasher relay already installed? Is this a common generic 2-prong flasher relay or something more specific? Does it support LED bulbs for the corner turn signal lamps? Does the fuse box have a L and R output for the turn dash indicator lamps? How do you get it to work w/ the single VW turn indicator lamp? Diodes?
(Sorry, that's a bunch of related questions) |
2) The turn signal flasher being used is the old thermal style 3 pin flasher (X power, L load, and P pilot). If you want to use all LED bulbs you can swap it for an EF33RL LED version of the flasher. Due to the different hazard switches and relays used, we only set up the harness for turn signals, and put in a constant hot hazard wire to go to terminal 30 of the hazard switch (later setups) or terminal 30 of the relay (older ground triggered setups). To wire in hazards you can either use your old flasher and make a small harness to tie into the turn signal wiring and switch, or wire in another style flasher just for hazards. There's a lot of different ways to do it, that could probably be it's own write up! Basically when you're done the Left turns are tied together, the Right turns are tied together, and your load wires (49a) are tied together, on most setups. So the flasher has a P pilot terminal if you're using an add on turn signal switch, or a grounded indicator bulb. If you're running the stock single indicator you can just come off of our purple flasher wire (stock black/green/white 49a) and jump it up to the indicator bulb. No diodes needed. I think the American Autowire kits used 2 wires and diodes. I just come off the load wire like the stock setup did. The indicator bulb will flash and alternate with the turn signals like stock. If you ever wanted to run 2 indicators, you could just splice in to the left front and right front turn wires, had guys do that before with custom dash setups. Here's a simple hazard wiring diagram that I made and sent to someone. I use to just edit the flasher part for whatever flasher they had, as long as the power and load terminals are kept straight it still works.
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From my understanding, both the std & deluxe Rebel fuse box provides a fuse for the E-Flashers (Hazard brown wire above connected to #30 terminal) and a fuse for the turn signals, but wiring up the E-Flasher system is an add-on. The above diagram is how to integrate the turn signals and E-Flashers around the E-Flasher switch just like VW did. The only difference I see from the stock VW wiring is the wire colors since you are using the Rebel harness wires.
It is not clear to me if the black wire connected to the #15 terminal on the E-Flasher switch is a dedicated wire for the turn signal fuse (there is a dedicated turn signal fuse), or just a common ignition switch hot wire shared with other systems? Either way, as long as you connect an ignition switch power source to #15 on the E-Flasher switch it will work. The E-Flasher switch with do both functions described above.
This pic from Speedy Jim's site better illustrates the interconnection between the E-Flasher and turn signal circuits. The only thing missing from Speedy Jim's diagram is the turn indicator lamp in the speedometer. From Jeremy's descriptions above the circuit works the same, just the wire colors will differ some.
The pic with the silver 2-prong flasher relay connected to the E-Flasher switch in the earlier post would be how you would wire an independent E-Flasher system which had its own separate flasher relay. Here the brown wire (constant 12v) from the fuse box powers the flasher relay directly. The E-Flasher switch is only used to open/close the path for the 2-prong relay to the corner lamps via the turn signal switch existing wires. The #1 circuit is not used as the turn signals and its flasher relay are powered completely separately.
_________________
AshMan40
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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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bedlamite
Samba Member
Joined: September 30, 2004
Posts: 182
Location: WI
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| Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 7:48 am Post subject: Re: Rebel Wire Questions and Pictures |
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I'm rebuilding my Baja bug, and looking at a new harness, and the back seat is gone. I'd like to put the fuse panel there along with tools, parts, etc.
Is there any major difference in the Rebel VW Universal harness and the 9+3 rear fuse mount kits other than wire length? |
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cdorety
Samba Member
Joined: May 10, 2021
Posts: 23
Location: OR
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| Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 7:05 pm Post subject: Re: Rebel Wire Questions and Pictures |
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Jeremy, thank you so much for all the information in this thread. I hope you might answer a couple questions for me. Maybe it will be helpful to others. I know my issue is not 100% related to this category, but here goes.
I have a 1968 type3 square and I have jumped in to re-wire the whole car. The original wiring was cracked and scary and, in a few places, melted.
So, I have all the old wiring out of the car and I took some pictures along the way but, obviously, the rebel kit does not have the same color coding as the OG wiring from VW. (I do have a bently manual, but it is just confusing me on this)
I am using the VW bug delux kit.
OK so my issue is that I can't figure out how to wire the back of my gauge/indicator unit. I can't find examples online or even any photos of this particular unit. I have seen some almost similar things, but I hope you might be able to help me out.
1) What is the black wire coming out of the back of the gauge?
2) I know where to wire the turn indicators and fuel sender, but what are the other 4?
Thanks!
Update: I have spent some more time with the wiring diagram in the bently manual, and have figured out everything but what that black wire is for. |
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cdorety
Samba Member
Joined: May 10, 2021
Posts: 23
Location: OR
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| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2022 3:23 pm Post subject: Re: Rebel Wire Questions and Pictures |
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I just completed rewiring my 1968 type 3 with a significant amount of help from Jeremy over the phone.
I highly recommend this harness (bug deluxe), and Jeremy knows his stuff 100%. |
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Jeremy1984
Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2012
Posts: 129
Location: Etowah,TN
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2022 6:02 am Post subject: Re: Rebel Wire Questions and Pictures |
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Sorry guys, I haven't been getting notifications on this post for some reason and I don't get a lot of spare time to check it out. If anyone needs anything or has a question that doesn't get answered here, just shoot me an email at our shop email [email protected] or give me a call at the shop 423-263-5399. Mon-Thurs 7am-5pm eastern.
I'll just address the general questions I noticed as I browsed. We did go to a 2 pin flasher a while back which still works fine with the stock VW turn signal setup and indicator. If you swap all your turn signals to LED's that won't let a ground backfeed to the stock indicator and can cause the indicator to not work. You could do LED's in front or rear and incandescent on the other, as long as a ground can get back to the indicator bulb. If you go all LED you'd also need to swap to a 2 pin LED flasher and all flashers/LED's are not created equal. Meaning that some LEDs don't pull enough load to activate all LED flashers and they still may not blink and you might have to try different flashers, and they're not all pinned the same way. I could do a post on just turn signals, flashers, bulbs, etc though!
Over the last couple of years we have also started adding in the stock VW hazard wiring for 69 and up style hazard switches for an extra $25. So you'd have the wiring in the harness for your hazard switch and it will all pull off the same flasher in the panel like a stock setup. Just request that extra wiring if you call in an order, or make a note on your online order if you do it on the website. That's all that I can think of for the moment. If you guys need anything just let me know. I don't want anyone to think that I'm ignoring questions or the thread. I just stay swamped. I still do final assembly on every harness that leaves Rebel Wire and do all of our tech as well as ordering, social media, etc  
Oh, I had an email asking about theft deterrent/battery cutoff wiring etc. I haven't really gotten into much of it. I have wired a few cars with battery cutoffs under the rear seat, but If I was looking to steal the car I'd lift the rear seat and clip a jumper wire across it. If it was well hidden it could work, and you can also put a small fuse or circuit breaker across the cutoff switch, enough to save radio memory but not carry enough to start the car. I did draw up something for a guy years ago, using a cigarette lighter to ground trigger a relay and make or break the positive coil wire. I haven't had time to test it. I know it works but haven't tested it over a long period of time (I did have a crazy thought about the hot trigger on the relay possibly heating up the lighter element slowly over time and the lighter eventually popping out and killing the connection). Although a relay with a diode might prevent that if it happened. I'll have to try it out sometime and see. My thought with theft prevention is it needs to be something that only you know about, and have a plan to bypass it if needed. Most things can still be bypassed if someone wants the car bad enough. Like killing the coil wire, if you're in the car to knock it in neutral, jumper wire from the alternator post to the coil +, jump across the solenoid, and you've got it, provided you're not working around an electric fuel pump. Just depends on how bad someone wants your car really ... Anyone have any anti theft ideas on these older cars?
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jetmech
Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2019
Posts: 135
Location: Hamilton ON, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2022 4:49 am Post subject: Re: Rebel Wire Questions and Pictures |
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The anti theft set up I put into my daughters 74 was using the labelled defog switch. Also I added an additional momentary switch to the dash, so the defog switch was wired up in a way that if you had the key in the ACC position and the switch off the ignition coil would not be powered up, but the radio and other electrical components would still work, so if you took the car to a drive-in you can listen to the movie with your radio on and not over heat the ignition coil, the momentary switch was wired up to a time delayed relay that would power the rear defog for 10 mins. So, if you didn't know that the labelled defog switch was needed to be on you couldn’t start the car. The key to the setup was to kill the engine with the defog switch first and not the ignition key switch.
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74' Super Beetle |
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