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Fiddlestyx Samba Member
Joined: July 08, 2015 Posts: 401 Location: Texas
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Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 4:42 pm Post subject: Re: 2.0 Type IV rebuild |
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It's weird that grind 142 is not listed on their webpage. I will call them sometime next week and try to figure out what is the best course of action for me.
http://www.webcamshafts.com/pages_vehicles/automobile/volkswagen/1693.html _________________ 1983 Vanagon Westfalia Air-cooled
1973 Super Beetle |
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airkooledchris Samba Member
Joined: January 25, 2005 Posts: 2700
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 5:41 pm Post subject: Re: 2.0 Type IV rebuild |
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140 is the regrind part number. 142 is new but it requires milling the gear. Anyone here who has installed a replacement T4 cam can explain the process. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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vacca_rabite Samba Member
Joined: July 04, 2021 Posts: 72 Location: PA
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Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 6:04 pm Post subject: Re: 2.0 Type IV rebuild |
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I’ve built a couple TIV motors (but never for a bus).
I suggested the 96mm pistons as they have proven to be the sweet spot for power and heat when using iron cylinders. If you use a 2.0 914 crank that gives you 2056cc. Keep your CR reasonable (I used 8.6:1 on my last motor) and a cam with a good torque profile (talk to EuroMotors/Webb/T4 store and they will all have a recommendation for you for car selection.)
On my 914, a 2056 runs cooler then a stock 2.0 and will run all day doing 90. Obviously NOT A BUS. But it does translate as load and heat are load and heat.
My thoughts, YMMV. I’m curious what you end up with.
Zach |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 9:58 pm Post subject: Re: 2.0 Type IV rebuild |
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vacca_rabite wrote: |
I’ve built a couple TIV motors (but never for a bus).
I suggested the 96mm pistons as they have proven to be the sweet spot for power and heat when using iron cylinders. If you use a 2.0 914 crank that gives you 2056cc. Keep your CR reasonable (I used 8.6:1 on my last motor) and a cam with a good torque profile (talk to EuroMotors/Webb/T4 store and they will all have a recommendation for you for car selection.)
On my 914, a 2056 runs cooler then a stock 2.0 and will run all day doing 90. Obviously NOT A BUS. But it does translate as load and heat are load and heat.
My thoughts, YMMV. I’m curious what you end up with.
Zach |
yeah as to YMMV - since not a bus not aware of the heat issues buses have. Logic doesn't work with a bus. Took me years to figure that one out. VW detuned buses on purpose. The only way to shed heat in a bus is go to different improved ducting or don't make so much heat. It is easy to make more power in a bus. It is a b*tch to get rid of the heat from that power, or make the power in a way the existing cooling system can shed it. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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Fiddlestyx Samba Member
Joined: July 08, 2015 Posts: 401 Location: Texas
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Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2021 8:35 am Post subject: Re: 2.0 Type IV rebuild |
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I believe the camshaft I have is a hydraulic cam for an automatic transmission because it has two rings around the center journal, but I find conflicting information. My van has a manual transmission.
I don't know how much the cam affects the type of transmission. _________________ 1983 Vanagon Westfalia Air-cooled
1973 Super Beetle |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2021 12:10 pm Post subject: Re: 2.0 Type IV rebuild |
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Fiddlestyx wrote: |
I believe the camshaft I have is a hydraulic cam for an automatic transmission because it has two rings around the center journal, but I find conflicting information. My van has a manual transmission.
I don't know how much the cam affects the type of transmission. |
My 1977 is FI, 2L and a manual trans. The 142 works from sea level to Sierras, cold to hot, idle to red line. The 140 is the reground part number. VW seems to have lost control of the rings on the cam vs grind. I had it figured out once then about that time someone comes up with a cam totally outside those parameters.
Example read this 1977 supplement right side regarding hydraulic cam: Camshaft lobes... For new-type camshaft identification....
_________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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Fiddlestyx Samba Member
Joined: July 08, 2015 Posts: 401 Location: Texas
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Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 5:57 pm Post subject: Re: 2.0 Type IV rebuild |
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I spoke with WebCams on Friday and they didn't tell me anything I didn't already know.
Anyways, I am going with the 142 grind. According to the page on aircooled.net I need to aim for a compression ratio of 8-8.25:1
http://vwparts.aircooled.net/Web-Cam-Type-4-Camshaft-142-Grind-00-142-p/00-142.htm?CartID=2
Can I get a CR of 8:1 with dished pistons or do I need flat tops? _________________ 1983 Vanagon Westfalia Air-cooled
1973 Super Beetle |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 8:19 pm Post subject: Re: 2.0 Type IV rebuild |
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I saw no drop in head temps between 7.6:1 with .065" deck and 7.3:1 with .090" deck on my last build. The argument many make is that lower deck means cooler heads, but as I told others based on my years of racing experience, the lower deck is offset by higher compression temperatures. Personally I would not go as high as 8.0:1 on a 2L bus engine. You'll make more power from the additional heat higher compression brings, but buses already run too hot from inadequate cooling. The system they use for cooling was designed for an engine that had 15% less size (1.7L vs 2L in a small 411 / 412 car or 914-4 / 912e Porsche sport car. They are lighter and have less wind resistance at speed. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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Fiddlestyx Samba Member
Joined: July 08, 2015 Posts: 401 Location: Texas
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Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 2:44 pm Post subject: Re: 2.0 Type IV rebuild |
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SGKent wrote: |
I saw no drop in head temps between 7.6:1 with .065" deck and 7.3:1 with .090" deck on my last build. The argument many make is that lower deck means cooler heads, but as I told others based on my years of racing experience, the lower deck is offset by higher compression temperatures. Personally I would not go as high as 8.0:1 on a 2L bus engine. You'll make more power from the additional heat higher compression brings, but buses already run too hot from inadequate cooling. The system they use for cooling was designed for an engine that had 15% less size (1.7L vs 2L in a small 411 / 412 car or 914-4 / 912e Porsche sport car. They are lighter and have less wind resistance at speed. |
What would be a good CR to aim for knowing that I am trying to keep the engine adequately cool but I am also moving a 5000 lb van (unloaded). _________________ 1983 Vanagon Westfalia Air-cooled
1973 Super Beetle |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 3:21 pm Post subject: Re: 2.0 Type IV rebuild |
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Fiddlestyx wrote: |
SGKent wrote: |
I saw no drop in head temps between 7.6:1 with .065" deck and 7.3:1 with .090" deck on my last build. The argument many make is that lower deck means cooler heads, but as I told others based on my years of racing experience, the lower deck is offset by higher compression temperatures. Personally I would not go as high as 8.0:1 on a 2L bus engine. You'll make more power from the additional heat higher compression brings, but buses already run too hot from inadequate cooling. The system they use for cooling was designed for an engine that had 15% less size (1.7L vs 2L in a small 411 / 412 car or 914-4 / 912e Porsche sport car. They are lighter and have less wind resistance at speed. |
What would be a good CR to aim for knowing that I am trying to keep the engine adequately cool but I am also moving a 5000 lb van (unloaded). |
the factory used 7.3:1, so maybe in my opinion 7.5 or 7.6:1 in a 2L is adequate. The issue is that a 2L bus just generates so much heat in a type 4 motor. If VW had used the large Porsche 6 cyl type fan and ducting that won the 24 hour Le Mans so many years, then 8.0:1 would be fine. The type 4 shroud just sucks at high sustained speeds in a bus, meaning anything over 60 - 65 mph. The speed limit when the 2L type buses were sold was 55 mph. That didn't end until 1995 and by then the warranties on air cooled engines were long gone or VW would have been stuck fixing it. The last air cooled Vanagon 2L motor was I think 1981. Making HP and a fine running engine also includes cooling it. Unlike a water cooled engine, you can't just add a larger radiator. You can change the ducting but it is a major conversion to do that. Most of us just live with the 400F head temps but really that is too hot from an engineering viewpoint. People wanted more power as the VW bus matured so the 411 motor was reworked by Porsche then used in the 914-4 and 912e, and the engineering donated to VW for use in North American buses.
photo from Internet. Down the middle type cooling with larger Porsche 911 6-cyl type fan.
_________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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Fiddlestyx Samba Member
Joined: July 08, 2015 Posts: 401 Location: Texas
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Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 3:17 pm Post subject: Re: 2.0 Type IV rebuild |
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I got the crankshaft back and was able to test fit it in the case. The crank journals were all within spec. I had the case previously checked. I went with silverline main bearings. The crank turns freely and smoothly with the case torqued down
It will be another 2 to 11 weeks before the camshaft comes in.
Meanwhile I need to get the rods done but I need the wrist pins for that. I do not know if I should go with Mahle or AA pistons or someone else.
These are the options I have found, thoughts?
Mahle https://www.vanagain.com/shop/piston-and-cylinder-set-029198075
Jopex (Denmark)?? https://www.busdepot.com/029198075
AA Hypereutectic https://aapistons.com/collections/piston-liner-kit...orsche-914
At this point my budget has gone out the window, lol. _________________ 1983 Vanagon Westfalia Air-cooled
1973 Super Beetle |
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timvw7476 Samba Member
Joined: June 03, 2013 Posts: 2182 Location: seattle
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Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 3:32 pm Post subject: Re: 2.0 Type IV rebuild |
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I would just grab the AAs, I've got a pre-scuff coating set with 35k on them. No issues. I believe they are made in China & finish balanced in City of Industry CA. The Jopex look like uncoated AAs. (Jopex sells alot of stuff, even window regulators so I think it is a 'brand of convenience' in this case.)
I have no recent experience with Mahle, but they were the best thirty years ago. Now?? No clue. |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 3:50 pm Post subject: Re: 2.0 Type IV rebuild |
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did you closely inspect the set of pistons and liners that you have. Check the land clearances etc.? I say this as a perfectionist when it comes to building engines - and someone who has a lot of them under his belt - sometimes the original set is better than what can be found today if the skirts aren't collapsed or the ring lands worn out. I usually hit the pistons with a 70 PSI or so glass bead machine (has to be glass beads and nothing else - maybe walnut shells, because anything else will embed in the aluminum). The check the ring lands for wear and mic the pistons at the bottom and just below the wrist pins to see what the measurements are. Then fit the pins in the pistons - sometimes it takes one or two passes with a small hone to get rid of the ridge from where the circlip was. When the circlip goes back in the square side faces out.
We've had a rash of not as high a quality replacements as we would like the last few years. Mahle pink is the closest you can come to factory sets these days. That is why the factory Kolbenschmidt sets are still sometimes better. Be sure to inspect the old ones for cracks, but cracked pistons in any car are reasonably rare. More likely any wear is they are scuffed, ring lands worn out and skirts collapsed. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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Fiddlestyx Samba Member
Joined: July 08, 2015 Posts: 401 Location: Texas
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Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 5:30 pm Post subject: Re: 2.0 Type IV rebuild |
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Thanks Tim.
SGKent wrote: |
did you closely inspect the set of pistons and liners that you have. Check the land clearances etc.? I say this as a perfectionist when it comes to building engines - and someone who has a lot of them under his belt - sometimes the original set is better than what can be found today if the skirts aren't collapsed or the ring lands worn out. I usually hit the pistons with a 70 PSI or so glass bead machine (has to be glass beads and nothing else - maybe walnut shells, because anything else will embed in the aluminum). The check the ring lands for wear and mic the pistons at the bottom and just below the wrist pins to see what the measurements are. Then fit the pins in the pistons - sometimes it takes one or two passes with a small hone to get rid of the ridge from where the circlip was. When the circlip goes back in the square side faces out.
We've had a rash of not as high a quality replacements as we would like the last few years. Mahle pink is the closest you can come to factory sets these days. That is why the factory Kolbenschmidt sets are still sometimes better. Be sure to inspect the old ones for cracks, but cracked pistons in any car are reasonably rare. More likely any wear is they are scuffed, ring lands worn out and skirts collapsed. |
My pistons (#1 and #2) are not useable, they were about to seize (I have never driven this van, only got the engine started when I first got it).
My heads are also not usable, #4 was about to drop a valve seat. The PO never adjusted the valves.
_________________ 1983 Vanagon Westfalia Air-cooled
1973 Super Beetle |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:52 am Post subject: Re: 2.0 Type IV rebuild |
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too bad. I'd still wash and glass bead the pistons to see how they look. I suspect those are worn out. Looks like someone dropped that one. The cylinders may have value to someone who has a good piston but cylinders with broken fins.
Heads like that are usually have cracks too. They can sometimes be saved but a new set from Len Hoffman are worth the money since the heads are the weakest part of our engines - bus heat kills them. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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BerneseMtnDog Samba Member
Joined: July 07, 2014 Posts: 146 Location: Oregon
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Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 2:56 pm Post subject: Re: 2.0 Type IV rebuild |
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I rebuilt the top end of my 82 Vanagon last year and put my money on the Hoffman heads. They're fantastic quality. Ceramic coated combustion chambers and valve tops. I'd definitely look at those if I were you.
Steve |
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Fiddlestyx Samba Member
Joined: July 08, 2015 Posts: 401 Location: Texas
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Posted: Sun Nov 21, 2021 7:23 am Post subject: Re: 2.0 Type IV rebuild |
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It's been a while. I started a new job and now I have more money and less time, isn't that always the way.
Anyways, I ordered the cam on July 20th and I still don't have it. I emailed aircooled.net about it a week ago and still haven't heard anything. I don't know what's going on.
I got the new pistons and cylinders (AA). The rods and wrist pins are at the machine shop being done. Plus I'm having the case cleaned at the same shop.
Hopefully, I will have the cam soon. _________________ 1983 Vanagon Westfalia Air-cooled
1973 Super Beetle |
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timvw7476 Samba Member
Joined: June 03, 2013 Posts: 2182 Location: seattle
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Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2021 1:46 am Post subject: Re: 2.0 Type IV rebuild |
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sorry to hear about parts delivery problems, but it's going around.
There's always respraying/Parkerizing you old hydro cam & lifters, but that's a four to six week thing, some shops in CA do provide that service.
I love stock Type IV stuff & it did fine with mechanical VW cams for me
in the past, but it's also pack it all up & wait..... & wait some more. |
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Fiddlestyx Samba Member
Joined: July 08, 2015 Posts: 401 Location: Texas
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Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2021 9:27 am Post subject: Re: 2.0 Type IV rebuild |
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This is the email I got from aircooled.net
wrote: |
The delays and unpredictability of available for Web-cam designer/custom camshafts has not resolved unfortunately. We have a long waitlist of customers at this point, some of which have been waiting since spring of this year. There is apparently a "blank shortage" that, according to our rep at Web-cam, has prevented them from being able to fill most of our cam requests. Other cam manufacturers (Engle, Eagle, SCAT) that we also work with have also only been able to sporadically supply cams. We have no way of predicting when we will be successful at acquiring your requested cam for you. Our last two requests sent to Webcam asking for an ETA update have gone unanswered.
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So for now, the engine sits as I can't assemble it. _________________ 1983 Vanagon Westfalia Air-cooled
1973 Super Beetle |
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