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D52E Samba Member
Joined: August 05, 2019 Posts: 57 Location: Nashville, TN
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Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 11:51 am Post subject: 1977 2.0L FI Teardown |
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Documenting the teardown of the 2.0L FI engine with hydraulic lifters. I purchased this 1977 bus 2 years ago. It had been off the road for over 10 years. I replaced many components and got it back on the road after a few months. Recently, the oil pressure started dropping to 5psi at idle. I added a CB performance upgraded pump with no improvement.
I tore the engine down and this is what I found. Mains and cam bearings are coming apart. Cam lobes are showing wear. Engine was equipped with hydraulic lifters.
1) Is there any thoughts on the root cause of the bearings coming apart? I'm thinking corrosion from sitting so long.
2) Oil pump is about 0.0025 to 0.0030 smaller than the worn out stock pump. Should I get a pump that is a tighter fit to the case (European Motorworks modified Shadeck)?
3) Crankshaft seems to have some slight wear. Should I machine it, ask machine shop to review for undersize?
_________________ 1977 Bus
2.0 fuel injection
Solid lifters
Manual transmission
GM 105A Alternator |
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aeromech Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006 Posts: 16971 Location: San Diego, California
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Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 12:02 pm Post subject: Re: 1977 2.0L FI Teardown |
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Wow. I have no answers for you but can offer an opinion. I'm no machinist or professional engine builder. I would get these parts to someone who has the tooling and experience to put it back together correctly the first time. It would need to be someone with T4 engine build time. There aren't many around so do this yourself and roll the dice or do it right and cry once. _________________ Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
Capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 12:27 pm Post subject: Re: 1977 2.0L FI Teardown |
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normally flaking like that is a sign of over heated bearings. low oil pressure, bad oil, reving too high, too many miles on the engine, poor rebuilt last time.
The case needs to be cleaned immaculately then bolted together and the besring saddles measured accurately. The front bearing near the flywheel looks shiny so it may have been walking. That can be caused by the bore too large, hard to say without measuring. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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D52E Samba Member
Joined: August 05, 2019 Posts: 57 Location: Nashville, TN
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Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 1:42 pm Post subject: Re: 1977 2.0L FI Teardown |
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I have started to contact George at European Motorworks. List of likely machining so far:
1. Clean case and oil galleys
2. Pipe plugs for oil galleys
3. Case line bore
4. Case deck
5. Recondition crank (std. size currently)
6. Rods recondition (Std. size currently)
7. New cam and lifters (going back to solid cam)
8. Pushrods for solid lifters
9. Check lifter bores and sleeve if needed
10. Shadeck 26mm oil pump with pressed ring to achieve correct body diameter
Questions remaining:
1) Are there any comments regarding using European motorworks for the machining and parts?
2) Should I try to stay with hydraulic lifters? I only drive the bus on weekends in good weather so it sits a bunch. _________________ 1977 Bus
2.0 fuel injection
Solid lifters
Manual transmission
GM 105A Alternator |
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timvw7476 Samba Member
Joined: June 03, 2013 Posts: 2206 Location: seattle
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Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 2:00 pm Post subject: Re: 1977 2.0L FI Teardown |
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That 5th image shows a main bearing that's been damaged by a dowel pin.
Might explain the poor oiling to the rest of the engine, partially blocking the oil feed to the works. Don't worry about the flaking, lots of high mile Type !V shed backing material off the camshaft bearing. Although that last one all the way down to the copper is nothing I've ever seen before.
This is why we use a Sharpie to index the bearings on the edge/saddle before final assembly...........
Nothin that can't be corrected now that it's open. : ) |
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RalphWiggam Samba Member
Joined: February 02, 2018 Posts: 906 Location: SouthEast
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Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 3:26 pm Post subject: Re: 1977 2.0L FI Teardown |
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EMW is a good choice. They will do it correctly the first time. |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 3:53 pm Post subject: Re: 1977 2.0L FI Teardown |
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timvw7476 wrote: |
That 5th image shows a main bearing that's been damaged by a dowel pin.
Might explain the poor oiling to the rest of the engine, partially blocking the oil feed to the works. Don't worry about the flaking, lots of high mile Type !V shed backing material off the camshaft bearing. Although that last one all the way down to the copper is nothing I've ever seen before.
This is why we use a Sharpie to index the bearings on the edge/saddle before final assembly...........
Nothin that can't be corrected now that it's open. : ) |
earlier cam bearings were copper that was coated with a tiny amount of babbit. I would not consider that a failed bearing. The dowel pin error is troublesome. It shows that whomever built it was a novice. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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D52E Samba Member
Joined: August 05, 2019 Posts: 57 Location: Nashville, TN
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Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 6:43 pm Post subject: Re: 1977 2.0L FI Teardown |
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SGKent wrote: |
The dowel pin error is troublesome. It shows that whomever built it was a novice. |
Agreed, looks like the main bearing either walked or it was poorly assembled. Unfortunately, I don’t have the history of the engine. I do know the bearings are standard size. The rod and main bearings even appear to have VW part numbers on them. _________________ 1977 Bus
2.0 fuel injection
Solid lifters
Manual transmission
GM 105A Alternator |
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MuzzcoVW Samba Member
Joined: February 21, 2018 Posts: 1475 Location: Westfield, MA.
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Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:52 am Post subject: Re: 1977 2.0L FI Teardown |
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It's been a long time since I've seen a type 4 that needs a line bore! I hope they don't do this just because. They sound reputable so I'm sure they'll check. Also that must be a replacement because the '77s didn't have hydraulic lifters. That's some interesting wear and sure signs of an novice rebuild with that bearing! I hope my '77 doesn't look like that inside, will be tearing down soon. |
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D52E Samba Member
Joined: August 05, 2019 Posts: 57 Location: Nashville, TN
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Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:45 am Post subject: Re: 1977 2.0L FI Teardown |
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It would be good if the case didn’t require line bore. Fingers crossed.
I’m still looking for input on these items:
1) Are there any comments regarding using European motorworks for the machining and parts?
2) Should I try to stay with hydraulic lifters? I only drive the bus on weekends in good weather so it sits a bunch.
3) should I buy a modified shadeck oil pump (ring added to diameter.
Pics of stock pump and non modified shadeck
_________________ 1977 Bus
2.0 fuel injection
Solid lifters
Manual transmission
GM 105A Alternator |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21520 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 7:08 am Post subject: Re: 1977 2.0L FI Teardown |
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MuzzcoVW wrote: |
It's been a long time since I've seen a type 4 that needs a line bore! I hope they don't do this just because. They sound reputable so I'm sure they'll check. Also that must be a replacement because the '77s didn't have hydraulic lifters. That's some interesting wear and sure signs of an novice rebuild with that bearing! I hope my '77 doesn't look like that inside, will be tearing down soon. |
I fully agree with this. DO NOT align bore a type 4 engine "just because".
Too many machinists....who are mainly accustomed to working with softer magnesium cases.....see the very minor ...single spot out of round area in the bearing saddles you commonly get on type 4....which span about 10°-15° of radius at the most.....and are no more that .001" to .002" deep max......average about .0015".
As you read outward from the deepest point of this "dent" (only way to describe it)....these are typically spanning another 5° to 7° on each side but the depth of the dent is tapering off to 0.
Its not significant.....because when coupled with quality steel back bearings....these very shallow dents created by years of pounding from the highest torque moment of the compression stroke will have no effect on roundness of the new main bearings until you hit well into six figure mileage if you put new bearings on top of them.
There will be no slack, no oil pressure loss, no fit issues running these emall dents....on a type 4 engine. Yes.....with age and miles....these "dents" in the saddles will only be increasing in span and depth......but its not quick. The aluminum is strong.
If you spend a cew minutes with a dial bore gauge and see what i described....and all else is well.....leave it alone. You can drive 200k miles on that before the wear increases enough to need an align bore to correct it on a type 4 engine.
Thats a complete engine lifespan.
Do not throw away complete engine lifespans of type 4 cases....which are no longer being produced like type 1 cases......by align boring needlessly. Ray |
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Fiddlestyx Samba Member
Joined: July 08, 2015 Posts: 401 Location: Texas
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Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 7:24 am Post subject: Re: 1977 2.0L FI Teardown |
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D52E wrote: |
I’m still looking for input on these items:
1) Are there any comments regarding using European motorworks for the machining and parts? |
RalphWiggam answered this above, they said yes.
D52E wrote: |
2) Should I try to stay with hydraulic lifters? I only drive the bus on weekends in good weather so it sits a bunch. |
I am currently rebuilding a 2.0 too. I decided to switch to a solid lifter cam partly because my van will not be driven every day, maybe not even every week. From what I read about hydros is that they leak down over time which makes them noisy but maybe also causes additional wear. Finding definitive answers is difficult. Plus, your cam choices are severely limited if staying hydro.
D52E wrote: |
3) should I buy a modified shadeck oil pump (ring added to diameter.
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I can't answer this one as I am not to that point yet. _________________ 1983 Vanagon Westfalia Air-cooled
1973 Super Beetle |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 7:31 am Post subject: Re: 1977 2.0L FI Teardown |
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you find a good type 4 oil pump that is still in spec. It is possible Phil may have a couple left that he has blueprinted. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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D52E Samba Member
Joined: August 05, 2019 Posts: 57 Location: Nashville, TN
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Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:47 pm Post subject: Re: 1977 2.0L FI Teardown |
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I purchased a set of micrometers (0.0001" resolution) and a bore gauge (0.0005") resolution to measure the case. Unfortunately, it looks like the crank bores in the case are about 0.002" over the service limit. I think it will need a line bore job.
I will measure the lifter bores next.
_________________ 1977 Bus
2.0 fuel injection
Solid lifters
Manual transmission
GM 105A Alternator |
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Back to top |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50352
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Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 9:28 pm Post subject: Re: 1977 2.0L FI Teardown |
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The third main bearing from the flywheel looks to have spun in the case. This was an absolutely shitty rebuild, I would doubt that one could have turned the crank by hand once the case bolts were tightened down. |
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Abscate Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014 Posts: 22670 Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 2:36 am Post subject: Re: 1977 2.0L FI Teardown |
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D52E wrote: |
I purchased a set of micrometers (0.0001" resolution) and a bore gauge (0.0005") resolution to measure the case. Unfortunately, it looks like the crank bores in the case are about 0.002" over the service limit. I think it will need a line bore job.
I will measure the lifter bores next.
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Read rays tome (summary ……….) above and leave this alone and run it.
Measuring 0.0001 inches with a mike is practiced art
Did you find a bad valley or was it uniformly 0.002 inches oversize? _________________ .ssS! |
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D52E Samba Member
Joined: August 05, 2019 Posts: 57 Location: Nashville, TN
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Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 8:15 am Post subject: Re: 1977 2.0L FI Teardown |
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Wildthings wrote: |
The third main bearing from the flywheel looks to have spun in the case. This was an absolutely shitty rebuild, I would doubt that one could have turned the crank by hand once the case bolts were tightened down. |
Agreed, this is disappointing
Abscate wrote: |
Did you find a bad valley or was it uniformly 0.002 inches oversize? |
The bore varied from around 0.001" over limit on the best one to about 0.003" over limit on each one. In the end they averaged 0.002" over the limit. There was quite a bit of variation in the roundness of the bores as well
_________________ 1977 Bus
2.0 fuel injection
Solid lifters
Manual transmission
GM 105A Alternator |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 10:10 am Post subject: Re: 1977 2.0L FI Teardown |
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imho .002" is too much however measure each at 2 locations about 90 degrees apart. If it was a GEX case make sure the case halves are the same pair. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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orwell84 Samba Member
Joined: May 14, 2007 Posts: 2539 Location: Plattsburgh, New York
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Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 1:49 pm Post subject: Re: 1977 2.0L FI Teardown |
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Check out the Jim Martin article posted on this site for a detailed explanation of measuring case bores. He installs a main bearing and turns the bearing for each measurement. This ensures that you are measuring variation in the bore itself and not the bearing.
I bought a case from EMW with all the machining done that you listed. It was good work...a nice well centered align bore. |
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D52E Samba Member
Joined: August 05, 2019 Posts: 57 Location: Nashville, TN
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Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2021 12:45 pm Post subject: Re: 1977 2.0L FI Teardown |
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Thanks for all the feedback from all.
I’m now working on cam selection. I’m leaning towards a solid lifter instead of hydraulic.
I like the type 4 store Jack Raby 9590 cam but I’m concerned about getting the best value (power increase in proportion to cost)
Options:
Stock regrind
Pro - Lowest cost and will work well and tune well
Con - I would miss an opportunity to improve performance
Raby 9590
Pro - likely well designed with good R&D
Con - Cost is higher and performance improvement can’t be quantified (I tried PM Jack and called the Type 4 store and couldn’t get performance potential vs stock on this application).
Scat C25
Pro - cost is more inline with stock replacement
Con - heavy springs and tuning difficulty
European motorworks stock replacement
Pro - Fuel Injection compatibility
Con - unknown reliability
Webcam 142
Pro - Porsche used it on 912e used very similar pattern
Con - cost is a bit higher and performance increase can’t be quantified _________________ 1977 Bus
2.0 fuel injection
Solid lifters
Manual transmission
GM 105A Alternator |
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