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VW_Jimbo Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2016 Posts: 9948 Location: Huntington Beach, CA
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Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 12:21 pm Post subject: Re: 1600 Engine will not fit in Standard Tranny |
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With the engine is in as in the first pictures. Take a wrench and turn the crankshaft, then jiggle the engine, turn the wrench - jiggle, push in engine, turn the wrench - jiggle, push....on and on, till everything becomes aligned.
Be certain the engine is in line with the transmission input shaft, from front to rear. It needs to be in the same plane! Or you will be fighting the input shaft. _________________ Jimbo
There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!
TDCTDI wrote: |
Basically, a whole bunch of fuckery to achieve a look. |
67rustavenger wrote: |
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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viiking Samba Member
Joined: May 10, 2013 Posts: 2667 Location: Sydney Australia
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Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 4:30 pm Post subject: Re: 1600 Engine will not fit in Standard Tranny |
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As above. The engine is not in the same plane as the gearbox.
Loosen gearbox mounts and use a jack(s) to move box/engine so that motor starts to slide in at the exact plane that the transmission is. _________________ 1968 1500 RHD Lotus White Beetle since birth. In the hospital for major surgery
1966 Lancia Flavia Pininfarina Coupe - in the waiting room
Discharged: 1983 Vanagon, 1974 1800 Microbus,1968 Low Light,1968 Type 3 |
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Pruneman99 Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2012 Posts: 5013 Location: Oceanside
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Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 4:44 pm Post subject: Re: 1600 Engine will not fit in Standard Tranny |
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I haven't put and engine in a later trans with the throwout bearing sleeve in awhile, so I could be wrong but does something look funny there? That black collar? I want to say from memory that the sleeve the throwout bearing rode on was just a thin metal tube.. |
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vs-works Samba Member
Joined: May 11, 2010 Posts: 111 Location: La Canada Flintridge, CA
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Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 5:19 pm Post subject: Re: 1600 Engine will not fit in Standard Tranny |
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[email protected] wrote: |
While I agree you need to have the input shaft lined up, maybe check the length of stud protruding through the nuts on the rear mounts. I had a rhino mount tighten an abnormal amount of thread of the mount through the nut into the bell housing and the flywheel was actually hitting it. Maybe brush paint the forward face of the flywheel, and it will transfer the paint to the studs if they are hitting.
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So I cut down the screw that were long. I realigned the pressure plate and clutch. Both pictured below.
We tried to push the trans in...still get stuck. Put the top in the bottoms comes out, put the bottom in the top comes out. What could be holding it back?
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viiking Samba Member
Joined: May 10, 2013 Posts: 2667 Location: Sydney Australia
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Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 6:21 pm Post subject: Re: 1600 Engine will not fit in Standard Tranny |
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Pruneman99 wrote: |
I haven't put and engine in a later trans with the throwout bearing sleeve in awhile, so I could be wrong but does something look funny there? That black collar? I want to say from memory that the sleeve the throwout bearing rode on was just a thin metal tube.. |
Go back to the simple stuff. Measure the OD of the collar then see what the ID of the pressure plate is. If it is too close, it might be your problem. Also if your engine has been hanging on the pressure plate you may have got one of the fingers out of shape.
It might be an optical illusion but the input shaft does not appear to be completely central in the collar. If there is too much deviation, the collar will catch on the pressure plate fingers. There is always a bit of play on the input shaft. See if you can turn the input shaft to a position where it is more central. _________________ 1968 1500 RHD Lotus White Beetle since birth. In the hospital for major surgery
1966 Lancia Flavia Pininfarina Coupe - in the waiting room
Discharged: 1983 Vanagon, 1974 1800 Microbus,1968 Low Light,1968 Type 3 |
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Dan the workingstiff Samba Member
Joined: July 03, 2006 Posts: 824 Location: Downriver, MI
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Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 5:47 am Post subject: Re: 1600 Engine will not fit in Standard Tranny |
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I am not suggesting you do this....
I am questioning those in the know. While a youngster many years ago, under the influence of older more knowledgeable than I was told to "take the tip off the input shaft, its too long".
I know I did it at least once 30yrs ago, was that on a bus trans install, maybe? _________________ '69 Beetle
'66 FG buggy
My other air-cooled's
'76 IH 1200
'75 IH 1200 |
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frenchroast Samba Member
Joined: October 13, 2019 Posts: 678
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Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:44 am Post subject: Re: 1600 Engine will not fit in Standard Tranny |
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vs-works wrote: |
I am trying to install a standard 1600 engine into standard 1974 tranny. But it will not fully go into the bell housing of the tranny.
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New trans mounts? Are the bolts too long? They sometimes extend a little farther than the nut but most are close to flush.
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[email protected] Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2003 Posts: 4863 Location: Harmony, PA
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Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:54 am Post subject: Re: 1600 Engine will not fit in Standard Tranny |
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Maybe take another look at the gland nut. I once had one machined incorrectly that had the pilot bearing flush with the end of the nut face. This allowed the engine/clutch to go on the input shaft, but the spline portion of the input shaft would bottom out in the bearing before the engine would touch the trans.
You could also see if you can get an actual input shaft to use as an alignment tool. I used the plastic alignment tools for a long time until I started working on transaxles and got an input shaft damaged at the other end to use as an alignment tool. I was amazed how much easier the engine went in with the actual steel input shaft. |
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raydog Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2006 Posts: 1163 Location: Cape Cod
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Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 8:01 am Post subject: Re: 1600 Engine will not fit in Standard Tranny |
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Have you put the transmission in gear? Any gear, to keep the input shaft from turning while trying to line up the splines. _________________ Come on, It's not rocket science. KISS |
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anthax Samba Member
Joined: October 21, 2016 Posts: 283 Location: Hälsingland, Sweden
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Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 8:17 am Post subject: Re: 1600 Engine will not fit in Standard Tranny |
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I've had an issue with a friction disc, where the splines where badly machined and wouldn't go on the splines on the input shaft. Had to sand a small amount in every groove until it would fit. |
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Busstom Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2014 Posts: 3837 Location: San Jose, CA
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Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:49 pm Post subject: Re: 1600 Engine will not fit in Standard Tranny |
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OP's probably out working on it, but...
While it is a PITA at this point, the gland nut and clutch disc can be fitted over the input shaft (as applicable) to test fit and test all these theories. The flywheel can be removed and hand-placed into the bell housing space (though unless done squarely and evenly, I'm not sure just how helpful this could be). |
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Jim Schield Samba Member
Joined: December 20, 2003 Posts: 79
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Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 3:22 pm Post subject: Re: 1600 Engine will not fit in Standard Tranny |
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Did you loosen the wing nut on the transmission clutch arm? I mean loosen it considerably. Otherwise you are fighting the spring and will never be able to push on the engine all the way to the transmission. |
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Joey Samba Member
Joined: August 12, 2005 Posts: 5366 Location: Nova Scotia - Canada
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Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 6:13 pm Post subject: Re: 1600 Engine will not fit in Standard Tranny |
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anthax wrote: |
I've had an issue with a friction disc, where the splines where badly machined and wouldn't go on the splines on the input shaft. Had to sand a small amount in every groove until it would fit. |
^^^ this! _________________ Joey
‘60 Kombi - '74 Bus - '79 Panel - '65 Beetle |
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Cusser Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006 Posts: 31361 Location: Hot Arizona
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Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 6:18 pm Post subject: Re: 1600 Engine will not fit in Standard Tranny |
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Jim Schield wrote: |
Did you loosen the wing nut on the transmission clutch arm? I mean loosen it considerably. Otherwise you are fighting the spring and will never be able to push on the engine all the way to the transmission. |
Good suggestion, as was the suggestion that the mount bolts might be too long.
I ALWAYS loosen the clutch cable adjustment before installing ANY engine !!! _________________ 1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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rcooled Samba Member
Joined: September 20, 2008 Posts: 2502 Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:28 pm Post subject: Re: 1600 Engine will not fit in Standard Tranny |
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Jim Schield wrote: |
Did you loosen the wing nut on the transmission clutch arm? Otherwise you are fighting the spring... |
No need for that if the motor was originally in this car. If not fitting a new clutch cable, there shouldn't be any contact between the throw-out bearing and the release fingers with the motor bolted in place. You shouldn't fighting the return spring unless the cable adjustment was altered before the engine install. _________________ '63 Ragtop (current)
'65 Ghia coupe (totaled)
'67 Ghia convertible (current)
'69.5 Ghia convertible and
'62, '63, '65, '69 Bugs (all long gone) |
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Marinablau703 Samba Member
Joined: January 09, 2021 Posts: 169 Location: Hudson Valley/LI, NY
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Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2021 6:57 pm Post subject: Re: 1600 Engine will not fit in Standard Tranny |
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[email protected] wrote: |
While I agree you need to have the input shaft lined up, maybe check the length of stud protruding through the nuts on the rear mounts. I had a rhino mount tighten an abnormal amount of thread of the mount through the nut into the bell housing and the flywheel was actually hitting it. Maybe brush paint the forward face of the flywheel, and it will transfer the paint to the studs if they are hitting.
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This is the EXACT reason I battled for a day to get my engine installed; the engine mount studs were too long. Quick work with a cut-off wheel solved that! The OP's studs do look to be sticking out a tad much.
I also had to back the wing nut all the way off (realizing the return spring was non-existent, which then led to a new cable). I installed a new clutch and PP, which was much thicker than the old potato-chip clutch friction disk.
I removed the PP and clutch from the engine to test fit over the trans shaft, just to be doubly sure that it mated correctly. I cleaned up the ends of the splines with a file.
With the engine in as far as it'll go, try rotating the engine back and forth a little to ensure the shaft and clutch align, and also to feel if the flywheel is contacting anything. |
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Weezle Samba Member
Joined: February 07, 2014 Posts: 685 Location: ORLANDO
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ashman40 Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007 Posts: 15982 Location: North Florida, USA
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Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2021 4:03 pm Post subject: Re: 1600 Engine will not fit in Standard Tranny |
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vs-works wrote: |
We tried to push the trans in...still get stuck. Put the top in the bottoms comes out, put the bottom in the top comes out. What could be holding it back? |
What exactly do you mean here?
When installing the engine onto the transmission, there are are only three things you are trying to line up....
Transmission input shaft into the gland nut opening.
Two lower engine studs into the lower holes in the bell housing.
Once the engine is lifted and parallel with the transmission these three things should be horizontal and with a little wiggling will allow the engine and transmission to mate flush.
The upper two engine/transmission bolts are installed AFTER you get the engine mated flush to the transmission. Your above descriptions and pics suggest you are trying to mount both the upper and lower transmission-to-engine attachment points at the same time. It is hard enough to get three things to line up at the same time, don't make it hard on yourself trying to get all 5 to line up.
Also, it looks like you accelerator cable sleeve is permanently epoxied to the top of the bell housing?? Is this a 6th thing you need to line up to bring the engine and transmission together??? Pull the accelerator tube out from the rear face of the fan shroud and only when the engine is fully mounted, slide it back so it mates with the opening in the mounted cable sleeve over the transmission. Normally, the stock sleeve is installed after the engine is mounted as it is not permanently afixed to the transmission. _________________ AshMan40
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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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