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luftKooled Samba Member
Joined: July 31, 2021 Posts: 28 Location: IL
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Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 7:16 pm Post subject: Odd fuel guage and turn signal behavior |
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I just got a new to me '68 squareback and I am trouble shooting a few things. I scoured the forum for info without much luck.
So I am working on two things which may be oddly related.
First, turn signals. They work but do not indicate on the dash. I assumed they simply werent wired to the dash as the car has been mucked with. But based on everything else they seemed half way competent.
I was reading that the turn signal relay is unique to the squareback and if you drop in a common VW relay(or other common flasher relay), then the lights will work but not the dash lights. Any truth to this? Should I just swap in a 68 and up relay?
Second and oddly related. The fuel sender doesnt seem to work. ( there is a long shot chance that it is simply because there is virtually no fuel in the tank, I havent pulled the sender out of the tank yet) So I was reading if you ground out the sender, then the fuel guage should read FULL due to a zero ohm reading. I grounded the fuel sender wire to ground and Both turn signals came on. That seems odd. I havent pulled the gauge and checked grounding yet.
As a side note the horn doesnt work. I tested for voltage at the horn and nothing. I assume this is an unrelated problem
Is this thing simply mis-wired or am I missing something? Thanks for any input! I am about to swap in a new gas tank and this would be a good time |
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ALLWAGONS Samba Member
Joined: June 03, 2000 Posts: 4186 Location: Pasadena CA/DTLA soon China
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Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 9:16 pm Post subject: Re: Odd fuel guage and turn signal behavior |
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Check for bad ground. The gauges are held in place by two claps that attach on both sides behind the natal dash. _________________ I'd be UNSTOPPABLE if not for Law Enforcement and PHYSICS.
I recycle old cars and parts, other than when I rot, that's as Green as I am going to get.
Thanks to my Tesla driving neighbors, I feel more relaxed driving my SUBURBAN and old VW's.
NON INFLUENCER APPROVED |
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gt1953 Samba Member
Joined: May 08, 2002 Posts: 13846 Location: White Mountains Arizona
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Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:36 am Post subject: Re: Odd fuel guage and turn signal behavior |
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Disconnect the battery. Now take your dremel tool with the wire wheel and make every electric connection associated with the circuit that is not working correctly nice and bright and shiny.
So like the turn signals start with the bulb sockets and grounds at the lights.
Do not let the the issues over whelm you. Tackle each one by itself. _________________ Volkswagen: We tune what we drive.
Numbers Matching VW's are getting harder to find. Source out the most Stock vehicle and keep that way. You will be glad you did.
72 type 1
72 Squareback
({59 Euro bug, 62, 63, 67, 68, 69, 73 type ones 68 & 69 type two, 68 Ghia all sold}) |
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Bobnotch Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003 Posts: 22407 Location: Kimball, Mi
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Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:24 pm Post subject: Re: Odd fuel guage and turn signal behavior |
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ALLWAGONS wrote: |
Check for bad ground. The gauges are held in place by two claps that attach on both sides behind the natal dash. |
This, especially if the dash has been repainted, or the car has had a color change. _________________ Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote: |
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
Tram wrote: |
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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luftKooled Samba Member
Joined: July 31, 2021 Posts: 28 Location: IL
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Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 5:48 pm Post subject: Re: Odd fuel guage and turn signal behavior |
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Bobnotch wrote: |
This, especially if the dash has been repainted, or the car has had a color change. |
Yeah, it has been painted. I cant fit my hand up behind the dash for the left gauge. I was able to pull the clock, and the gauge edge has light surface rust. Still working on the speedo. I cannot reach the speedo clips from behind. Im thinking I can rotate it to reach both clips? |
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Bobnotch Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003 Posts: 22407 Location: Kimball, Mi
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Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:34 pm Post subject: Re: Odd fuel guage and turn signal behavior |
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luftKooled wrote: |
Bobnotch wrote: |
This, especially if the dash has been repainted, or the car has had a color change. |
Yeah, it has been painted. I cant fit my hand up behind the dash for the left gauge. I was able to pull the clock, and the gauge edge has light surface rust. Still working on the speedo. I cannot reach the speedo clips from behind. Im thinking I can rotate it to reach both clips? |
You might be able to rotate it, but there's 2 cut outs at 9 and 3 that allow those spring clips to pass thru the dash. Keep in mind that you might need to lightly push the instrument into it's hole, so you can move the tabs on the sides to get them out.
With the fuse box out, you'll have more access to the far left guage cluster to get to the tabs. _________________ Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote: |
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
Tram wrote: |
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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ataraxia Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010 Posts: 4504 Location: Illinois
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Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:38 pm Post subject: Re: Odd fuel guage and turn signal behavior |
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Where are you in IL? |
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RedSquare Samba Member
Joined: August 28, 2017 Posts: 238 Location: Kansas City
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Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2021 8:43 pm Post subject: Re: Odd fuel guage and turn signal behavior |
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I have a ‘68 that had thoroughly messed up turn signal wiring, dug into it and then created a PhD thesis out if what I learned.
Here is a detailed way of going through your system to sort out what is wrong:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=738568
Bad grounds are most likely - very common. Turn signal indicators in the gage can be incorrect wiring or a bad/incorrect relay. My post above from the FAQ section covers all of that. Hope this helps. |
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luftKooled Samba Member
Joined: July 31, 2021 Posts: 28 Location: IL
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Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 6:35 am Post subject: Re: Odd fuel guage and turn signal behavior |
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ataraxia wrote: |
Where are you in IL? |
Kane County |
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luftKooled Samba Member
Joined: July 31, 2021 Posts: 28 Location: IL
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Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 5:46 pm Post subject: Re: Odd fuel guage and turn signal behavior |
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thanks for this, I will have to wade in to this when less tired!
Here are some pictures of what Im dealing with.
some of the original wires color codes are confusing, I dont understand the blue/green for example. |
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ataraxia Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010 Posts: 4504 Location: Illinois
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RedSquare Samba Member
Joined: August 28, 2017 Posts: 238 Location: Kansas City
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Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 8:29 pm Post subject: Re: Odd fuel guage and turn signal behavior |
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Quote: |
Here are some pictures of what Im dealing with.
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That TS relay is definitely part of the problem that is causing the TS lights in the dash not to light up. Those relays are advertised as an equivalent to the stock relay, but they are not. They provide power to one of the wires that needs a ground. I cover this specific issue in my FAQ post about 2/3rds of the way down. Just scroll down in that post until you see the photo and video of that same square black plastic replacement relay, then read the text around it and watch the video.
That may not be your whole problem, but it is definitely a part of it. That relay is not right.
And you can easily verify that your dash TS bulbs work without taking the gage out. Just look at the terminal listing and take the wire that provides ground to those bulbs off of the relay and touch it to a good ground. (You’ll need the key in the “on” position for this, but don’t need the engine running.) If your gage bulbs are good and you don’t have other wiring issues, you’ll see the gauge bulbs light up. This is all explained in the post.
Let me know if this isn’t making sense. Happy to help. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt. |
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luftKooled Samba Member
Joined: July 31, 2021 Posts: 28 Location: IL
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Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2021 7:52 pm Post subject: Re: Odd fuel guage and turn signal behavior |
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RedSquare wrote: |
Let me know if this isn’t making sense. Happy to help. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt. |
No this is making a lot of sense! Thanks, your write up is invaluable in understanding.
Based on the schematic I cant just ground K because dash lights need switched ground whereas actual turn signals need switched power? I thought about rigging up a second flasher to switch ground but instead I bought the proper flasher relay.
As a side note finally got temp plate and insurance doen. Took the car out for a 2 days in a row, and I think I have quickly checked off some VW experiences. Car over heated or ran out of gas. Temp and humidity was about 98/95. I took off the engine cover and sat waiting for rescue. I put a gallon in and it started fine but on the 15 min drive home it started bogging down hard on the last .25 mile. Has to limp into the drive no power to speak of.
And yesterday a part fell off the car. It was one of the air filter covers. Car was pretty sluggish after 20 mins of driving I am guessing again because of the heat, I think it was 100 with high humidity. |
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RedSquare Samba Member
Joined: August 28, 2017 Posts: 238 Location: Kansas City
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Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2021 3:38 pm Post subject: Re: Odd fuel guage and turn signal behavior |
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luftKooled wrote: |
Based on the schematic I cant just ground K because dash lights need switched ground whereas actual turn signals need switched power? I thought about rigging up a second flasher to switch ground but instead I bought the proper flasher relay.
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Right. That wire to KBL needs the intermittent ground that the relay provides, so getting the correct relay is the way to go. When I was looking, nobody made new ones, so you either had to buy a used one and hope that it worked, fix a broken one, or buy new internals and retrofit them into the old relay box.
Congrats on checking off the other boxes associated with owning a classic VW! |
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RedSquare Samba Member
Joined: August 28, 2017 Posts: 238 Location: Kansas City
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Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2021 8:24 pm Post subject: Re: Odd fuel guage and turn signal behavior |
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Well…did you get it sorted? |
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luftKooled Samba Member
Joined: July 31, 2021 Posts: 28 Location: IL
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Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2021 5:24 pm Post subject: Re: Odd fuel guage and turn signal behavior |
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RedSquare wrote: |
Well…did you get it sorted? |
Been dealing with this.
Newish tank installed, but still checking out the sender. The top flange is so warped from over torquing I may get a new one. It is a made in germany VDO part fwiw. Looks like the date code is 7/69.
I swapped in the new relay. TS and Hazards work on all four corners as before. I tried grounding KB wire to chassis and the Fuel gauge pegs full. Hows that possible? |
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RedSquare Samba Member
Joined: August 28, 2017 Posts: 238 Location: Kansas City
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Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2021 9:45 am Post subject: Re: Odd fuel guage and turn signal behavior |
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That tank issue is gnarly. These cars are a labor of love for sure.
What new relay did you buy? Can you send a pic of the new relay? |
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ataraxia Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010 Posts: 4504 Location: Illinois
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Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2021 10:06 am Post subject: Re: Odd fuel guage and turn signal behavior |
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Is that the new tank or the old one?
Is your car still FI or swapped to carbs?
It is easier if you sort one issue first vs tackle them all at once. I'm in the middle of DuPage county and might have parts to help you out.
Shoot me a message/email if you want some local help getting this sorted. |
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luftKooled Samba Member
Joined: July 31, 2021 Posts: 28 Location: IL
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Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2021 10:34 am Post subject: Re: Odd fuel guage and turn signal behavior |
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ataraxia wrote: |
Is that the new tank or the old one?
Is your car still FI or swapped to carbs?
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Car is carbed, with dual 34s ( think). Not a carb expert, yet. I will post pictures. Supposedly they are tuned. Power seems ok except on that really hot and humid drive.
That is the tank I swapped out. It is probably salvageable. I am not responsible for that epoxy debacle. No idea what is underneath. I bought a used but good tank from a vendor. It was fine no rust but I did clean it up and put on fresh paint. |
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