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bugglyugger Samba Member
Joined: May 27, 2017 Posts: 46 Location: hull
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Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 3:33 am Post subject: Fibreglass advice needed |
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Hello...started trying to sort out the windscreen posts on my wizard..I have now taken out the windscreen for a better look at how its fitted..looks like the fibreglass kit is laid on top of the original posts that have rusted therefore lifting the fibreglass... Soooo the questions are ?..can you fibreglass over bodyfiller ?.if I remove half the post..the bit that's lifted..will it stick back to the original metal post when I put it back in, will it be hard to just reglass the rain channel bit.. ?..last of all..will it need gel coating afterwards..thanx in advance for any info and tips on fibreglassing this repair as I am a novice fibreglasser...
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67rustavenger Samba Member
Joined: February 24, 2015 Posts: 9772 Location: Oregon
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Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 10:37 am Post subject: Re: Fibreglass advice needed |
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Hey. I'm not sure what a "wizard" is. Your gonna need to post a pic or two of the car so you can attract a better response to your question.
Re-glassing over the lifted glass is not going to work.
Gel coat to my knowledge is for the top finish. In a mold that would be the first coat laid down then following coats of color and glass until the product is finished. At least that's my understanding of how fiber glass is worked in a mold.
Good Luck. _________________ I have learned over the years.
Cheap parts are gonna disappoint you.
Buy Once, Cry Once!
There's never enough time to do it right the first time. But there's always enough time to do it thrice.
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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bugglyugger Samba Member
Joined: May 27, 2017 Posts: 46 Location: hull
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Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 8:00 am Post subject: Re: Fibreglass advice needed |
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A wizard is a beetle with a fibreglass windscreen top fitted.. (Somehow fitted) for a convertible roof..in the 1st picture it shows a double rain channel wer its lifted..I need to remove the lifted fibreglass to get rid of the rust underneath then put it back..but am not sure how to go about things..not sure if the glass will stick, how do I blend it in..do I just chop it all out n refibreglass it..I don't know the capabilities of fibreglass n don't want to make a mess of it..
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theKbStockpiler Samba Member
Joined: July 07, 2012 Posts: 2316 Location: Rust Belt
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Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 9:20 am Post subject: Re: Fibreglass advice needed |
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The best you can hope for is a localized mess.
The kit part has to be removed for access to get the windshield frame to bare metal. I would think a hacksaw blade would work. Fiberglass resin will stick to metal so you should be able to use resin on the back of the piece you remove with maybe one layer of cloth as well.
I would sand down the outside seam so a small piece of cloth can cover the seam and still not protrude too high or sand down the hole replacement piece if one layer under neath makes it too high.
All auto body products with a hardener are dangerous to your health so take precautions. _________________ My beetle is not competing with your beetle. I have the yellow beetle in my town. There is a red one, a green one ......
Use all safety devices including a mask. |
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bugglyugger Samba Member
Joined: May 27, 2017 Posts: 46 Location: hull
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Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 11:27 am Post subject: Re: Fibreglass advice needed |
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Thanx for that advice stockpiler..we are on the same path..so if chop at the red line in the pic..I will be able to glass it back in, ,, if I get a gap can I just fill it with resin ?? then put 1 layer of cloth on it..like the idea of tying it into the rain channel..previous experience fibreglassing a small curve like this has chased problems with sticking..any tips on this would be appreciated.. Thanx guys.. |
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bugglyugger Samba Member
Joined: May 27, 2017 Posts: 46 Location: hull
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Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 11:34 am Post subject: Re: Fibreglass advice needed |
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If I refibreglass 1 layer over the full post...
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theKbStockpiler Samba Member
Joined: July 07, 2012 Posts: 2316 Location: Rust Belt
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Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 3:44 pm Post subject: Re: Fibreglass advice needed |
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Intuitively I would remove the (windshield frame cover) from drip rail to where it meets the windshield; or all the way across.Rust creeps so you should bet that the effected area is bigger then it appears on the outside.
Your going to have to go at removing the glass like your an archeologists.
A heat gun from the inside may soften up the glass enough so you can separate it but if you try this use plenty of ventilation.
For the seam I would stuff cloth glass in there(no voids). Maybe a clamp could hold the patch down as it's drying. If the windshield is removed ,something could tie it down. _________________ My beetle is not competing with your beetle. I have the yellow beetle in my town. There is a red one, a green one ......
Use all safety devices including a mask. |
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scubaseas Samba Member
Joined: May 24, 2013 Posts: 442 Location: ME & Texas, in a Bus or on a boat somewhere
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Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 4:35 pm Post subject: Re: Fibreglass advice needed |
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DO NOT HEAT UP FRP TO MAKE IT SOFT. You'll ruin the long bond molecules that make it plastic or strong in the first place. Heating to deformation ruins the resin. Polyester (iso or ortho), vinylester and epoxy are NOT thermoplastic resins. they are thermoSET resins.
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Soooo the questions are ?..can you fibreglass over bodyfiller ? |
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Yes but you may not want to. As long as it's clean and prepped right you can bond onto "fiberglass" . "Fiberglass" is the cloth or galss fibers. Autobody filler is resin (polyester) with talc and other fillers like "spaceage microspheres" and other "stuff" (glass spheres and some fumed silica) Look at "fairing compounds" in the below websites for a better understanding.
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if I remove half the post..the bit that's lifted..will it stick back to the original metal post when I put it back in, |
As long as it's clean and prepped it'll stick. But...more below
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will it be hard to just reglass the rain channel bit.. ? |
It'll be easy. Getting it to look good will be hard.
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..last of all..will it need gel coating afterwards. |
You need to cover it with something or it will chalk and eventually have issues with UV damage. Plus water will get to the metal underneath. Gel coat or paint would work but gel coat is hard to match (compared to paint) and it a pain to work with compared to paint.
You are talking body work stuff here as opposed to marine or car type FRP. You need to get back to bare metal. You can grind away until you get there. You can bond fiberglass to itself chemically and mechanically. Epoxy can only be mechanically bonded to itself or other FRP. Your panel is probably made from Isothalic Polyester resin. Vinylester resin would be best if you have to make any kind of structural repair. Epoxy would work but only if you can clean then grind to about 40 to 60 grit. Either Vinyl or Epoxy will stick to metal as long as it's "indexed" or ground to have "tooth".
I would grind back the add on fiberglass until you get to bare metal and make your repair decisions after that.
You can use auto body products like "tiger hair" "Gorilla hair" or fiberglass reinforced body filler to make a bond between prepped (ospho or naval jelly or acid etch) and primed metal (or bare metal but you might run into this same issue again). If you need to make "structural" repairs then you can lay on fiberglass resin and cloth to make a repair. I would use carbon fiber if you really need strength.
If you use any auto body filler type stuff it is NOT water proof. The fiberglass reinforced rot repair stuff is very water resistant but any "Bondo" type body filler is porous and needs to be top coated. Regular paint can stick to a properly primed fiberglass substrate. Most the these primers are two part resin based primers. Follow directions.
You can get good auto body advice from any auto body supply store. You might look at Fibreglast.com and LBIfiberglass.com to read about FRP and repairs. Boats and cars are not that different when it comes to FRP repair.
I could explain fiberglass until your eyes roll back. Been making structural boat repairs for over 18 years. Auto body for over 40 years. I just type 18WPM and what my brain says and what my fingers type aren't always the same thing. I would be happy to talk with you about it if you PM me your phone number
Buy a Tyvek suit or wear long sleeve shirt you don't like. Fiberglass can be nasty stuff to work with. Get at least a dust mask and some safety glasses too. _________________ Al
08/1970 T2a Westphalia owned since 1980
ASE Master certification. 50 years pushing a wrench
Retired |
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theKbStockpiler Samba Member
Joined: July 07, 2012 Posts: 2316 Location: Rust Belt
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Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 4:54 pm Post subject: Re: Fibreglass advice needed |
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DO NOT HEAT UP FRP TO MAKE IT SOFT. You'll ruin the long bond molecules that make it plastic or strong in the first place. Heating to deformation ruins the resin. Polyester (iso or ortho), vinylester and epoxy are NOT thermoplastic resins. they are thermoSET resins. |
I don't think heating the underside to maybe 230 degrees Fahrenheit to try to get the glass to break from the steel is going to involve all that. In any event either method of heat or mechanically removing it will end up with a unusable piece if true. _________________ My beetle is not competing with your beetle. I have the yellow beetle in my town. There is a red one, a green one ......
Use all safety devices including a mask. |
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scubaseas Samba Member
Joined: May 24, 2013 Posts: 442 Location: ME & Texas, in a Bus or on a boat somewhere
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Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:01 pm Post subject: Re: Fibreglass advice needed |
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If I refibreglass 1 layer over the full post... |
Grind it back further and do two or three layers, 90* and 45*. Fiberglass or reinforcing cloth works in tension. You need strands going in all 360* to give good strength.
I agree with theKBStockpiler on everything he said and said it very well too, but the heat it up part. You may be best served by pulling the whole structure out. You will probably have to work this quite a bit to get to smooth after repairs, you won't be able to work a 2" wide strip. You may have to recover some or most of the fiberglass piece. Don't be afraid to break some eggs. You will wind up putting putty or filler over almost all of the entire fiberglass area to get it smooth enough for paint.
Let me ask you this. If you jack up your car or put it on a lift can you open and close the doors? There's more to a convertible than just cutting the roof off. I ask because if you have a lot of flex in the body you may have to keep living with the windshield area getting rusty. Are your floor pans and chassis solid? _________________ Al
08/1970 T2a Westphalia owned since 1980
ASE Master certification. 50 years pushing a wrench
Retired |
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scubaseas Samba Member
Joined: May 24, 2013 Posts: 442 Location: ME & Texas, in a Bus or on a boat somewhere
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Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:41 pm Post subject: Re: Fibreglass advice needed |
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I don't think heating the underside to maybe 230 degrees Fahrenheit to try to get the glass to break from the steel is going to involve all that. In any event either method of heat or mechanically removing it will end up with a unusable piece if true. |
Looks like the glass wasn't bonded on the first place or may have torn loose. Or might be rust popped it off. If you heat it to the point of breaking the bond you will screw up the first maybe 10 to 20 mils (or more) of the piece. You are heating it to destroy the bond. 230*F won't hurt it. Depends on the resin but 400*F will damage it. Most resins will start to melt around 365*F if I recall, Just my opinion and experience.
It'll turn to sticky and the structural properties will be nil unless you grind it back to good structure. It's unlikely it won't damage more than just the surface bond. Heat it, sure but be prepared to grind it back to good solid FRP afterwards which he's going to have to do to get it to stick anyway. A "wonderbar" or plastic wedges (like used for popping a boat put of a mold) may be involved and it's gonna get ugly no matter how you do it.
I would try and pry it off before I started cutting or grinding anything off. Hard to say without seeing it.
Or just stuff some bondo in it and don't worry about it. but it'll just happen again.
I bet you the body flexes like crazy on this car. A urethane bond (like most manufacturers are using on door panels, etc. May be a good way to bond this one. Then just fair it with gorilla hair, top coat with fiberglass primer and paint it. But you usually have to put an activator on clean surfaces, not rust to have it work OK. _________________ Al
08/1970 T2a Westphalia owned since 1980
ASE Master certification. 50 years pushing a wrench
Retired |
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bugglyugger Samba Member
Joined: May 27, 2017 Posts: 46 Location: hull
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Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:08 am Post subject: Re: Fibreglass advice needed |
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Well..I have read this lot about 5 times over the day and each time it's sent my head spinning..I am only going to remove half as I mentioned earlier..reason being the windscreen side looks OK with no lift..therefore they can't be much rust..if their is then I will remove..as I can glass back together from the back whilst removed..I think this way is within my capabilities, the cars not going to be perfect, its not a show car..if it lifts again it should take another 20yrs or so..I will be happy with that.. I will post pics of the progress if ur interested..once again many thanx for all the info and advice...p.s. The car was converted in the 80s..apart from the restored work I have done...new floor, heater channels, bulkhead, panhead bottom, Napoleons hat, "A" post bottoms, rear xmembers..all 4 wheel arch repair panels..it has 50mm box section floor strengtheners... |
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scubaseas Samba Member
Joined: May 24, 2013 Posts: 442 Location: ME & Texas, in a Bus or on a boat somewhere
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Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:26 am Post subject: Re: Fibreglass advice needed |
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it has 50mm box section floor strengtheners... |
Good.. A lot of convertible conversions kits in the 80's had some pretty bogus engineering behind them. Had a guy that did a 122S Volvo cabrio conversion and if you put the car on the lift with the door open the chassis would bend about 3". Not something I would like to hit a pole in.
You might try scraping out as much as you can of the inside of the crack or separation, blow it out with air, treat the rust (ospho, naval gel, etc.) and then push in "git rot" or Gorilla Hair or what ever your regional reinforced auto body rust preventive filler is, grind it "flat", prime, putty, prime it and paint it. And just hope for the best.
Most auto body supply stores and a lot of NAPA stores can now mix custom paint in rattle can sprayers. Cheap too. Saves buying, renting or borrowing the spray equipment you will need to apply primer and paint. _________________ Al
08/1970 T2a Westphalia owned since 1980
ASE Master certification. 50 years pushing a wrench
Retired |
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bugglyugger Samba Member
Joined: May 27, 2017 Posts: 46 Location: hull
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Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:39 am Post subject: Re: Fibreglass advice needed |
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1st attempt but 2nd go at the same repair..1st time the glass stuck everywhere but the main crack..2nd attempt I think I crackt it..there is a low spot but it should get smaller as I sand down..
Let's see..shall we...
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Tvättbjörn Samba Member
Joined: May 07, 2004 Posts: 1431 Location: SoCal
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Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 11:11 pm Post subject: Re: Fibreglass advice needed |
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Got a basic question about working with fiberglass.
1. Can each layer of fiberglass cloth dry first or does it has to be still wet / sticky when putting on additional layers ?
2. Since it is kind of warm at this time of year. How much working time do you have at 95* -100* before the resin turns hard?
Thanks |
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evanfrucht Samba Member
Joined: July 24, 2016 Posts: 2180 Location: Laurel Canyon, CA
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Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:54 pm Post subject: Re: Fibreglass advice needed |
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Tvättbjörn wrote: |
Got a basic question about working with fiberglass.
1. Can each layer of fiberglass cloth dry first or does it has to be still wet / sticky when putting on additional layers ?
2. Since it is kind of warm at this time of year. How much working time do you have at 95* -100* before the resin turns hard?
Thanks |
1. No it is not neccesary, but preferable whenever possible. When you add more resin/layers to wet or partially cured material then everything is tied together via chemical bond. If you need or want to stop and add more layers later after its dried then that is perfectly acceptable but you MUST scuff up the surface very well with a coarse grit sandpaper, the coarser the better. This is to achieve a mechanical bond. A chemical bond is stronger than a mechanical one but is not always possible.
2. You can get different speed hardeners. I prefer to use epoxy over plain old school polyester resin but that's just me... its stronger and more durable. Normally off the shelf poly stuff you have a working time of maybe 20-30 minutes. At 100⁰F maybe you only have 10 min. Regardless of Epoxy or Polyester, working time really depends on brand, formula, etc. There are also retarders to slow it down, basically the same as getting a slow hardener.
Look into West Systems epoxy if you don't have material yet. _________________ 1967 Bug ( the daily rod )
1964 Fury Wagon ( the pavement shredder ) |
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Tvättbjörn Samba Member
Joined: May 07, 2004 Posts: 1431 Location: SoCal
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Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2021 9:15 pm Post subject: Re: Fibreglass advice needed |
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evanfrucht wrote: |
Tvättbjörn wrote: |
Got a basic question about working with fiberglass.
1. Can each layer of fiberglass cloth dry first or does it has to be still wet / sticky when putting on additional layers ?
2. Since it is kind of warm at this time of year. How much working time do you have at 95* -100* before the resin turns hard?
Thanks |
1. No it is not neccesary, but preferable whenever possible. When you add more resin/layers to wet or partially cured material then everything is tied together via chemical bond. If you need or want to stop and add more layers later after its dried then that is perfectly acceptable but you MUST scuff up the surface very well with a coarse grit sandpaper, the coarser the better. This is to achieve a mechanical bond. A chemical bond is stronger than a mechanical one but is not always possible.
2. You can get different speed hardeners. I prefer to use epoxy over plain old school polyester resin but that's just me... its stronger and more durable. Normally off the shelf poly stuff you have a working time of maybe 20-30 minutes. At 100⁰F maybe you only have 10 min. Regardless of Epoxy or Polyester, working time really depends on brand, formula, etc. There are also retarders to slow it down, basically the same as getting a slow hardener.
Look into West Systems epoxy if you don't have material yet. |
Thanks for the information. I will have to do it real early than to have the lowest temp possible and just keep working until finished. |
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evanfrucht Samba Member
Joined: July 24, 2016 Posts: 2180 Location: Laurel Canyon, CA
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Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:05 am Post subject: Re: Fibreglass advice needed |
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I would use West System 105 epoxy and use the 206 (slow) or 209 (extra slow) hardener. You will be able to work on it basically all day and it won't set up on you. The repair will be very durable also. _________________ 1967 Bug ( the daily rod )
1964 Fury Wagon ( the pavement shredder ) |
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W1K1 Samba Member
Joined: March 04, 2004 Posts: 4921 Location: Southern AB
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Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 11:59 am Post subject: Re: Fibreglass advice needed |
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I use dacron sheet for a top sheet if I am only applying a couple layers and need to add more later, it's good for working the excess epoxy out of the layup as well.
https://www.aircraftspruce.ca/catalog/cmpages/peelply4.php?clickkey=4728
For Composite Lay-Up:
A layer of 2.97 oz. Dacron fabric strips or tape laminated into a layup as if it were an extra ply of glass. The peel coat wets out with epoxy like glass cloth and cures along with the rest of the layup. However, the Dacron does not adhere structurally to the glass and when peeled away it leaves a surface ready for glass-to-glass bonding without sanding. Poly/Dacron blend is excellent as peel ply for composite lay-ups. _________________ http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/jim_martin_engine_build.php
1973 super
1965 squareback 1500E
1971 bay window westy- subi swap |
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