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Is it possible to do calculate cylinder deck height?
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SGKent Premium Member
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 4:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Is it possible to do calculate cylinder deck height? Reply with quote

it can be really hard to get a C/R that is a specific number because the shims are in certain sizes only. What I am saying is that if you find you can only get 7.1 or 7.6 with the shims available then go with the 7.6. If you can get 7.4 or 7.8 go with the 7.4 etc.

SK
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 5:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Is it possible to do calculate cylinder deck height? Reply with quote

These are my options
7.2 with 1mm shim (What i have now)
7.3 with 0.75 shim
7.5 with 0.5 shim
7.6 with 0.25 shim
7.7 with 0.2 shim

I tought it was better with low CR for longevity since less heat and therefore concluded I should go low (like 7.2). Why would it be better to choose 7.5 ? Could you explain the reasoning if you have the time?


PS
I have not done a complete engine rebuild by the book. only done heads, valves, seats, new rings, new lifters, new adjusters, new pushrods, new oil cooler

I have honed my old cylinders as they where within spec
Kept old pistons but new rings
I have not split the case nor changed main seals front and back. So old cam and bearings etc inside case. Cam looked good though.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 9:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Is it possible to do calculate cylinder deck height? Reply with quote

what camshaft will you be running? Carbs or FI?
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 9:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Is it possible to do calculate cylinder deck height? Reply with quote

Jonasand wrote:
These are my options
7.2 with 1mm shim (What i have now)
7.3 with 0.75 shim
7.5 with 0.5 shim
7.6 with 0.25 shim
7.7 with 0.2 shim

I tought it was better with low CR for longevity since less heat and therefore concluded I should go low (like 7.2). Why would it be better to choose 7.5 ? Could you explain the reasoning if you have the time?


PS
I have not done a complete engine rebuild by the book. only done heads, valves, seats, new rings, new lifters, new adjusters, new pushrods, new oil cooler

I have honed my old cylinders as they where within spec
Kept old pistons but new rings
I have not split the case nor changed main seals front and back. So old cam and bearings etc inside case. Cam looked good though.


The tighter the deck the more turbulence in the cylinder and thus a quicker cleaner burn. I like a deck height of no more than .040" or 1mm so that I have all the turbulence I can get. With a quicker burn you can also run a bit less timing advance during hot weather and thus run a bit cooler. I have never experience knock on one of these engines when properly timed, and these days run non ethanol high test during the heat of summer so don't much worry at all about knock.

If you are running an old cam, consider refacing you lifters so that they are convex as per new lifters are as they come out of the box.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Is it possible to do calculate cylinder deck height? Reply with quote

SGKent wrote:
what camshaft will you be running? Carbs or FI?


I'm running a stock VW cam for the GE 2.0 L (022 109 101 A )
FI/Hydrualic lifters

Wildthings wrote:
The tighter the deck the more turbulence in the cylinder and thus a quicker cleaner burn. I like a deck height of no more than .040" or 1mm so that I have all the turbulence I can get. With a quicker burn you can also run a bit less timing advance during hot weather and thus run a bit cooler. I have never experience knock on one of these engines when properly timed, and these days run non ethanol high test during the heat of summer so don't much worry at all about knock.


Very interesting. So you are saying I get a cooler head and increased CR at the same time? What shim do you think I should get then if I have 0.52mm to start with?


Wildthings wrote:
If you are running an old cam, consider refacing you lifters so that they are convex as per new lifters are as they come out of the box.


I have bought 8 new lifters, should I do work on them even though they are new?
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Is it possible to do calculate cylinder deck height? Reply with quote

Jonasand wrote:

Wildthings wrote:
The tighter the deck the more turbulence in the cylinder and thus a quicker cleaner burn. I like a deck height of no more than .040" or 1mm so that I have all the turbulence I can get. With a quicker burn you can also run a bit less timing advance during hot weather and thus run a bit cooler. I have never experience knock on one of these engines when properly timed, and these days run non ethanol high test during the heat of summer so don't much worry at all about knock.


Very interesting. So you are saying I get a cooler head and increased CR at the same time? What shim do you think I should get then if I have 0.52mm to start with?


Get your deck below 0.040" or 1mm to provide good squish and turbulence and you may well be able to run with a degree or two of less advance giving less time for the burning gases to dump heat into the heads.

Quote:

Wildthings wrote:
If you are running an old cam, consider refacing you lifters so that they are convex as per new lifters are as they come out of the box.


I have bought 8 new lifters, should I do work on them even though they are new?


Your new lifters will already have a convex shape to their wear area.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Is it possible to do calculate cylinder deck height? Reply with quote

you won't get a cooler head and you will get higher CR unless you open up the combustion chamber to more cc. I lowered my deck and got zip-nada for it. It is a myth, an old wives tale. When the CR increases, more heat is created causing the final combustion pressures to be greater when the fuel and air combine to burn. That more power means more heat has to be shed. I would say that a 2.0L bus engine pretty much gets all the cooling it can from the existing shroud and fan. It was designed for a smaller engine in a lighter car.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 1:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Is it possible to do calculate cylinder deck height? Reply with quote

It seems that you disagree on optimal deck height. I respect both of your opinions very much, so not sure what to do here.

SGKent recommends a CR between 7.5-7.6 if use E10 and E5 fuel of good quality.

Wildthings recommends a deck height max 1.52mm and min 0.76mm here:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0
But prefers a tight deck height (below 1mm)

My options with available shims are

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


So a shim of 0.5 mm would be ok with SGKent (7.5 CR) and almost below 1mm deck height as WT recommends

A shim of 0.25 would also be ok with SGKent (7.6 CR) and almost at minimum deck height recommended by WT


What deck height would each of you recommend for me then?

Also what was the difference in head temp for you SGKent when you lowered deck height?

Wildthings, have you got any temp data for different deck height you have tried?


Thanks for your opinions!
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 1:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Is it possible to do calculate cylinder deck height? Reply with quote

Any engine that I have ever built that had a propensity to knock excessively had a deck height in excess of 0.060" or 1.5mm, while engines at the tight deck end of the spectrum don't knock easily at all. I really like the piston and cylinder head design for the VW Waterboxer used in 1983 1/2 and later Vanagons. It maximizes the squish area, provides good turbulence, and reduces the distance the flame front has to travel to ignite the vast majority of the fuel. You can literally have the timing set 6-8° too far advanced and the engine will not knock.

I have not found that going to a tighter deck increase head temperatures much at all, if any, though I have never built engines with varying deck heights just to dyno them. Note that with a tight deck less heat will reach the edges of the combustion chamber than with a loose deck as the squish area prevents or at least lessens combustion when the piston is close to TDC, and if you can delay the timing by a degree or so because the turbulence and the reduced travel distance to the flame front get the combustion over quicker there is less time for heat to transfer into the heads and pistons tops. Note that higher compression engines run more efficiently because they turn more heat into mechanical energy rather than dumping it into the heads, pistons, and exhaust, you do not want knock though and a tight squish area combined with additional turbulence can lessen knock.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 2:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Is it possible to do calculate cylinder deck height? Reply with quote

Quote:
Also what was the difference in head temp for you SGKent when you lowered deck height?


nothing. The argument that has always been proposed is that lower deck will run cooler. My change in deck to a lower deck did nothing to lower temperatures. Zero Nada. Zip.

FWIW my years in SCCA road racing support that when you raise compression ratios the effect is that there is a multiplication factor on the power produced. What that means is that as the CR increases, you start your burn from a higher temperature due to the higher compression. Burning the fuel and air produces additional heat that gets added to the temperature from the compression by a factor larger than 1 + 1. Effectively you make more power for the same fuel and air, meaning more efficiency. That is done solely by producing more heat that expands the air and pushes the piston. But then you have to shed that heat. The higher the compression the faster the fuel combines with the air, and also the risk of detonation at a hot spot increases. You go up in octane in the fuel to reduce the risk of detonation. Eventually you run out of octane available to protect the engine. That is why drag racing cars run alcohol as a fuel. It will burn incredibly richer than gasoline mixtures. They use the excess alcohol to cool the engine and prevent detonation at very high compression ratios.

Today, engines are water cooled, they are designed with knock sensors and other computer monitors that monitor air to fuel right out of the burn and after the catalytic converter. They have multiple cam profiles that are used at different RPMs. Even the intake manifolds have variable volumes so they control the air speed into the engine at different RPMs. The engines are built taking advantage of every trick they have learned in the last 50 years since our buses were new. VW chose 7.3:1 for the fuels that were available then, and the conditions. They knew that a higher CR would make more power but it would also create more wear and more heat. They knew that these engines had reached as far as they could go as air cooled engines. They said that about the time the last buses were produced. They said they were getting rid of them for water cooled engines. They knew that the pistons were scuffing from too much heat in buses and Vanagons. They killed off the North American air cooled engines although they continued to make the small type 1 air cooled 1600's for other markets. You have a 2L engine. It makes a lot of heat. You also run it in a bus which is heavy and a sheet of plywood going down the highway. I would not go past 7.5:1 or 7.6:1 because it will create higher combustion temperatures that in turn will make the heads and pistons more likely to be damaged by that heat IN A BUS. In a 411, 412, 914-4, 912e go for it, maybe even 9:1, 9.5:1, or 10:1 if you want to race it. You could ask Len what CR he used in his FP 914-4 to see the limit on a T4 air cooled motor, BUT not in a bus. VW had to detune them due to heat.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2021 11:31 am    Post subject: Re: Is it possible to do calculate cylinder deck height? Reply with quote

Wildthings, will I get the benefits of a tight deck + timing advance you speak of going with 0.040" deck or is even lower required?

Next step available to me would be 0.030" (with a 0.010" shim)

I could go to 0.036" if I do 2x0.008" shims
(old shim from my cylinders + new shim from gasket set).
Don't know if it would be advisable to reuse old shims + use double shims though?

Or I could go double shims of different thickness 0.008"+0.010" that would yield 0.038" deck height

Seems you are both quite near each other in preference when you are advising me, at least on my vehicle. And that neither of you have gotten any real world severe temp differences by going up/down in deck height in your own vehicles.

SGKent recommended 7.5-7.6 CR equals Wildthings recommended 7.5-7.6 CR!

Only difference is that WT defines his recommendation as a deck height between 1mm (0.040") and 0.76mm (0.030").

As you can see in the table in my post below, both your recommendations seem to work out to the same CR number!
It would be more difference on another vehicle with another CC volume though.

Or am I missing something?
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2021 2:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Is it possible to do calculate cylinder deck height? Reply with quote

you can't stack shims. That won't last. Single shim same on all cylinders.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2021 9:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Is it possible to do calculate cylinder deck height? Reply with quote

Took my 1800 today and advanced the timing to 32° BTDC at 3800 rpm with the hoses off, this being the most advanced end of the factory timing range. I then drove my van 13 miles with a 1500 foot elevation gain all in 4th gear doing 65 at all times including on the grades. 800' of the elevation gain is in the last 3 miles. 95°F ambient. I have a 0.038" deck which is the tightest I could get without having custom machining done.

At the top of the grade I turned into a back road slowed to 15 mph and floor it in 4th gear to see if I could make the engine knock. No such luck so I repeated it a few times. The engine just will not knock thanks at least in part to the tight deck.

SGKent is acting like a change in compression from 7.5 to 7.6 is indistinguishable from a change in compression from 7.5 to 9.5, which it is not. The change in the compression temperature between 7.5 and 7.6 is close to nil, maybe 2°F or so. While the heat added when the fuel burns is going to be exactly the same, as the compression ratio in no way changes the BTUs available in the fuel so we are looking at a combustion temperature of something like 1502°F verse 1500°F, hardly a major difference. What the extra compression does do is slightly raise the maximum pressure in the cylinders which is what we are after in the first place. Note that under part throttle since a higher compression ratio increases the pressure and efficiency then a high compression ratio can make the cylinders run cooler as less air-fuel mix is needed for any given driving condition, only at full throttle is that 2° difference in maximum combustion temperatures going to show up.

It is my opinion that the added knock resistance of the tighter deck more than offsets the slight increase in temperature of going from a compression ratio of 7.5 to one of 7.6.

Squish improves combustion and knock resistance, this has been known for about 100 years at this point in time. If I remember the story right some guy with a 700cc motorcycle decided to enter a gas mileage contest. Since everyone else was running only 500cc engines he entered the competition at a disadvantage. In his attempts to get his compression up to improve his gas mileage, he discovered that going to close to zero piston to head clearance improved knock resistance and allowed him to run much higher compression than his competitors. In the trials he was able to get something like 70 MPG with his knock resistant tight deck-high compression engine verses his competitors who could only get 50 MPG with their knock prone loose deck-low compression engines.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2021 2:35 am    Post subject: Re: Is it possible to do calculate cylinder deck height? Reply with quote

interesting topic, it´s not very easy to get info on deck height effect on knock. I mean the general internet claim (no offence Wildthings) is that once you go over 1,5mm engine will knock. I think this came from very early studies with sidevalve engines (Ricardo), however new studies like this barely mention deck
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0360128516300764

One engine builder I talked to said it´s not that important and mentioned there´s plenty of production cars with more deck. And also stock bus engines have more than 1,5mm.

Reason I´m looking at this is I´m building a 98x78 engine and it´s not easy to get shims for these cylinders. With copper head gaskets I´d have 1,6-1,7 mm
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2021 8:05 am    Post subject: Re: Is it possible to do calculate cylinder deck height? Reply with quote

I own two engine which I built years ago that have excessive deck and they both knock very easily. The one is a Dodge 318 in my truck which the machinist who did the machine work insisted would have better knock resistance if I use shorter than deck height pistons so ended up with over 1.5mm of total deck. The engine is doggy if I don't bump the timing up to at least the middle of the factory spec and will knock easily if I go a degree or two too far, this is running high octane fuel with the truck running empty. I typically carry the tools to adjust the timing if I am going to be towing something for as the engine works hard and gets hot it will knock that much more easily.

I also have a 2.0L Type 4 engine in my 411, it was built with AA pistons and cylinders in the early 00's when they had the pin height wrong and thus has an overly loose deck. It too knocks very readily and has to be driven with a timing back off a few degrees from where I would otherwise run it. If I did to it what I described doing to my bus engine in the above post it would rattle like crazy.

You likely don't want to be running any head gaskets, and instead let the cylinders seat directly against the heads.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:44 am    Post subject: Re: Is it possible to do calculate cylinder deck height? Reply with quote

no headgaskets. VW pulled those for a reason.

Wildthings (Mike) and I have argued over this before. I equate the squish issue to two kids arguing whether an ice cream cone tastes better with more blue spreckles or orange ones.

https://www.ratwell.com/mirror/www.dolphinsci.com/techbull.html or http://kentcomputer.com/77VW/techbull.pdf

also as an afterthought, detonation is not the same as pinging. There are other factors that can contribute such as head temperatures, octane changes, mixture changes, RPM, amount of carbon on the heads and pistons - even the time of day and weather conditions. The day I burned thru a piston in my 1971 dp, it was 8pm, and about 30 degrees outside right before Christmas climbing a slight grade wound out in 3rd gear. At the track, engines destroyed from detonation were most common early in the morning when it was cooler and humidity lower outside. The reason being that cold dry air is denser.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2021 12:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Is it possible to do calculate cylinder deck height? Reply with quote

Yes, I've seen those files. Don't mean to say they are fake or not from VW but if you order full set of type 4 manuals from the factory (in german) there's no info like this. I've built engines with and without head gaskets, only problem I have with standard gaskets is that they require head bolt torque check after few hours. And the explanation these files give for deleting gaskets is because of heat transfer, so I'm not so worried about using copper rings. Anyway it's pretty much the only option for 98mm cylinders, not so easy to find a shop who can make custom shims (yes, I know I should have built a 96x80 instead of this Smile )
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2021 1:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Is it possible to do calculate cylinder deck height? Reply with quote

And to the original question... I'd build like it was, shims below the cylinders and head gaskets. Why? Because you are using the old, unknown quality (they always have length differencies) cylinder. Head gaskets help a bit to minimize tolerances and your machinist is right, there might be a small ridge. Performance increase on removing shims and gaskets is meaningless, instead have it tuned up in a dyno.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2021 4:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Is it possible to do calculate cylinder deck height? Reply with quote

yes - if these are used cylinders be careful changing deck height. If they have been honed carefully, and the machinist sure he got the ridge then it is like a new cylinder.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2021 1:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Is it possible to do calculate cylinder deck height? Reply with quote

I'm now tearing down the longblock again to put new shims in.
I really want to install the correct shim this time, so to be sure,
I have a couple of questions for @wildthings

If given the option of 0.040" or 0.030" deck height what would you choose?
If I choose the lower deck of 0.030" and for some reason had a measurement error so my deck height would be below 0.030" in reality, what would be the consequences?
(Let's say I had a real DH of 0,028" because of this measuring error.)

When you say "if you are being very careful in your build you could go to 0.025"
what do you mean by that?
Do you mean that an engine carfully built by a pro (that is very good at measuring and does everything right and by the book) then a super low deck height of 0.025 is OK?

I'm asking because I'm not a pro and I haven't split the case in my build, reusing cam etc. So does this mean that generally speaking a "less careful build" should probably go with the higher deck?

Considering I have not done a full rebuild splitting the case, would 0.040" be more safe then 0.030"-0.028"?


Sorry for the questions, just want to understand the logic
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