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66 Bus - no brake lights and only one hazard flasher
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mikeowen17
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:36 am    Post subject: 66 Bus - no brake lights and only one hazard flasher Reply with quote

Hi all - just got a 66 split screen bus - it’s in great shape, but the only thing stopping me taking it out is the fact the brake lights don’t work.

Also, because I know these can be linked, when I turn on hazard flashers, only the front left turn signal flashes (separately, when I operate turn signals normally using the stalk, front and back turn signals flash properly)

Any advice on where to start looking for the issue?
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AS350driver
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 8:45 am    Post subject: Re: 66 Bus - no brake lights and only one hazard flasher Reply with quote

I just went through all this on my 65. The 66 is a little different but not that much.

The rear blinkers and brake lights are the same filaments in the dual filament bulbs back there, so if you have rear blinkers working the issue probably isn't the bulbs.

Have you checked that the two wires on the brake light switch on the back of the brake master cylinder are hooked up?

Next place I'd check is the emergency switch and relay wiring.

Also, the brake light wiring goes through the turn signal switch, it could be the switch or wiring to/from.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/info/wiring/bus_66_USA.jpg
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 8:58 am    Post subject: Re: 66 Bus - no brake lights and only one hazard flasher Reply with quote

Make sure all light housings have good grounds, add then if needed. The 66 and 67 use the combined flasher, brake light and 4 way relay box and most have gone bad or dont work after a 12 volt conversion.

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Eric&Barb
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:11 am    Post subject: Re: 66 Bus - no brake lights and only one hazard flasher Reply with quote

Add ground wires to each taillight and route them to the battery ground cable bolt point on the body. VW finally added ground wires for the taillights at the factory for the 1970 bus model year.

Then start cleaning up all the connections in the wiring harness, add in dielectric grease to keep those connections clean of corrosion for much longer.
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BonTonRoulet
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:18 am    Post subject: Re: 66 Bus - no brake lights and only one hazard flasher Reply with quote

66 is an odd bird. There is also a supplemental wiring diagram for the emergency flasher system in the technical/wiring diagrams info on this site. Let's see if we can find that. Here you go:

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/info/wiring/bus_emergency_lights_8_65.jpg
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mikeowen17
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:25 am    Post subject: Re: 66 Bus - no brake lights and only one hazard flasher Reply with quote

Ok - was able to go down to look at the bus and have made progress.

First, the wires to the front right turn signal were disconnected, so now we have the following:
1/ all turn signals work using the stalk - front and rear
2/ emergency flashers work from the switch on the dash - but only the front
3/ brake lights don’t work when pedal is depressed.

I also noticed the relay clicks randomly all the time while the power is switched on - I feel like that has to be part of the issue - but how to solve?!
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BonTonRoulet
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:27 am    Post subject: Re: 66 Bus - no brake lights and only one hazard flasher Reply with quote

Also I'd take a look at this document. It helped me immensely in getting my 66 working correctly.


http://www.type2.com/library/electris/vw-9prong.html
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:14 am    Post subject: Re: 66 Bus - no brake lights and only one hazard flasher Reply with quote

yes to the above 9 prong post on type2

for the break lights, tap the two wires at the switch together. If the brake lights are now on, it's just the brake light pressure switch
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BonTonRoulet
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:29 am    Post subject: Re: 66 Bus - no brake lights and only one hazard flasher Reply with quote

mikeowen17 wrote:
Ok - was able to go down to look at the bus and have made progress.

First, the wires to the front right turn signal were disconnected, so now we have the following:
1/ all turn signals work using the stalk - front and rear
2/ emergency flashers work from the switch on the dash - but only the front
3/ brake lights don’t work when pedal is depressed.

I also noticed the relay clicks randomly all the time while the power is switched on - I feel like that has to be part of the issue - but how to solve?!


Might be as simple as swapping the 2 connections at the tail light. Is the bus original from way back or has someone recently removed the tail light assemblies to paint the chassis or install new tail light seals? That might tell you something.
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mikeowen17
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:26 pm    Post subject: Re: 66 Bus - no brake lights and only one hazard flasher Reply with quote

I messed about with it some more, but didn't get any further.

One thing that I feel must be an issue is the fact that the 9 pin relay is constantly clicking whenever the power to the ignition is on - any thoughts as to what could be causing that?
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Eric&Barb
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:37 pm    Post subject: Re: 66 Bus - no brake lights and only one hazard flasher Reply with quote

mikeowen17 wrote:
I messed about with it some more, but didn't get any further.

One thing that I feel must be an issue is the fact that the 9 pin relay is constantly clicking whenever the power to the ignition is on - any thoughts as to what could be causing that?


If you have front turn signals, then you have flashing power to the rear turn signals. Rear turn signals do not use a separate circuit inside the 9 pin relay. The turn signal switches off and on the brake light electrical flow to each rear turn signal so that light can flash.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:46 pm    Post subject: Re: 66 Bus - no brake lights and only one hazard flasher Reply with quote

Up at the top of the split bus forum in the stickies is the "Split Bus FAQ and How Tos - *Read before posting*". Which is a must to go thru always when searching for an answer. Down in the electric section of that is a great article on how to diagnose, repair, or replace.
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Jade
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 7:19 pm    Post subject: Re: 66 Bus - no brake lights and only one hazard flasher Reply with quote

I'm having a similar problem on my '66. I replaced the 9 pin box with a dual 3 prong relay kit from ? years ago (well before the 9 pin box started being made again). Worked fine up until last year. I searched and have done some troubleshooting with Matt Roberds writeup, but no luck.

-I have turn signals and brake lights
-I do not have emergency flasher lights
-I verified the emergency dash switch and it is bad (these are no longer made or sold from what I can tell)
-When I bypass the emergency dash switch the speedo light just stays on solid, but again no lights flashing
-Tried bypassing the emergency switch with a 2 prong flasher, no luck

Thoughts?
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BonTonRoulet
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 7:50 pm    Post subject: Re: 66 Bus - no brake lights and only one hazard flasher Reply with quote

Jade wrote:
I'm having a similar problem on my '66. I replaced the 9 pin box with a dual 3 prong relay kit from ? years ago (well before the 9 pin box started being made again). Worked fine up until last year. I searched and have done some troubleshooting with Matt Roberds writeup, but no luck.

-I have turn signals and brake lights
-I do not have emergency flasher lights
-I verified the emergency dash switch and it is bad (these are no longer made or sold from what I can tell)
-When I bypass the emergency dash switch the speedo light just stays on solid, but again no lights flashing
-Tried bypassing the emergency switch with a 2 prong flasher, no luck

Thoughts?
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The emergency flasher switch and knob with interior bulb is available....used....from the classifieds on this site but you will pay dearly. Or at least that's the seller's viewpoint anyway from what I've seen.

So as for that nearly unobtanium switch with knob and bulb you have that might be bad:

Remove the switch assembly from your dash. Unscrew the knob and stem from the switch. Very lightly polish the shaft of the stem with a bit of scotchbright. Look and see if there is some form of O ring or other insulator material on the shaft just above the threads where it screws into the switch. Unscrew the face of the knob and carefully retrieve the tiny bulb. Very carefully clean the contacts for the bulb. Put it back in and screw the face of the knob back on.

As for the switch without the knob and stem installed, spray the inside of the switch really good with starting fluid. Shake. Install the knob and stem and either push the switch closed or pull it to open. Remove the knob and stem and spray down again with the starting fluid. Shake. Do this a couple more times working the switch each time in between.

Leave it atop your toolbox for 24 hours. Fret that it really is bad. Peruse the classifieds. Open your wallet. Reinstall your bad switch and see what happens. Reinstall means putting it back in the dash after you have cleaned the backside of the dash where it mounts and grounds. Holding it in your hand with the wires hooked up isn't "installed", although at least in my experience the light did manage to power up by pulling the knob when hooked up to a 4 amp power supply and held in my hand.

Ponder over the course of it's 50+ years the number of times that emergency flasher switch actually got put into action and used. Sometimes they just need a good cleaning and a wake up.

Good Luck!
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telford dorr
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:51 pm    Post subject: Re: 66 Bus - no brake lights and only one hazard flasher Reply with quote

Check terminal 54 on the 9-pin module with a test light, key on. It should light when the brake pedal is pressed. If it doesn't, check the brake light switch and associated wiring. Repeat the test on terminal 54f. It should also light. If it doesn't, then the relay contacts inside the 9-pin module are funky. As this e-flash feature seldom gets used, the relay contacts can oxidize and fail to make contact.

I fix them by removing the 9-pin relay module and bench testing it. Connect terminal 30 to a source of power. Cobb an old 2-terminal domestic flasher relay between the "S" terminal of the module and ground. Apply power and let the relay module sit there and click on/off for an hour or so. Cleans and polishes the contacts quite nicely...
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ToolBox
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 9:02 am    Post subject: Re: 66 Bus - no brake lights and only one hazard flasher Reply with quote

Is the Bus still 6V or has it been converted to 12V?

See if the 9 pin box is still 6V, bet it is.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 1:25 pm    Post subject: Re: 66 Bus - no brake lights and only one hazard flasher Reply with quote

I got a '66 Kombi about 2 years ago, and it had similar electrical gremlins. All original wiring, with a totally sketchy looking spaghetti of dangling and electrical-taped wiring around the fuse box where a PO had swapped out a basic flasher relay for the 9-way, as well as a wonky non-bus looking turn signal stalk.

Rather than trying to troubleshoot these weird issues, I went in for the full transplant. New harness, 12V 9-way, and turn signal from WW. Since then things have been way way better. I've had a few issues crop up here and there since then, but it's pretty much always been due to a poor ground or loose wire. Example: turn signal started "rapid flashing" implying a blown bulb. Drove me nuts for a while, until I just took each connection off every flasher light, cleaned it up, and ensured a good connection at all terminals. Issue resolved.

Anyways, just wanted to recommend the nuclear option if it's something you can afford - 56 year old wiring is pretty brittle, corroded and just unreliable.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2021 12:09 pm    Post subject: Re: 66 Bus - no brake lights and only one hazard flasher Reply with quote

Ok - I fixed it

Thanks to all for the advice - and especially for the type2.com article. Following the troubleshooting steps on there helped me find that the brake light feed from steering column that should be on 54f was connected to KBl

Connected it properly - and everything works!
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2021 11:28 am    Post subject: Re: 66 Bus - no brake lights and only one hazard flasher Reply with quote

Thanks for the advice. I don't mean to hijack this thread but I did get my flasher switch out yesterday (major PITA). Trying to figure out how to get the squeezed metal housing off now without destroying it??

Gently cut those four areas with the dremel?
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2021 2:19 pm    Post subject: Re: 66 Bus - no brake lights and only one hazard flasher Reply with quote

Got the switch apart. There's really not much to it. I can clean it, etc. but I'm beginning to think more and more that the bulb inside the knob is bad, correct? I'd like to be able to test it before I put it back in the bus with a 12V bulb. etc. ("a red warning lamp inside the switch," from above supplemental diagram). Thoughts?

What is this made of inside the plastic portion (yellowish). Why on earth can't we duplicate something like this in the modern age?

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