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Koeppler Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2011 Posts: 481 Location: Aging gracefully
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Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 5:56 pm Post subject: Need some schooling about 1 1/2” headers and early bays |
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I am in the market for a 1 1/2” header for the 1915cc motor I’m building. Or at least I think I am. I have a old header from a Bug that I want to use but my buddy says it won’t clear the mustache bar on my ‘69 Bus. I never heard of that problem before.
So I got to looking around and…….Some sellers say the headers they sell “fit any T-1 based engine”, some say “Bus up to ‘67” or “68-71 bus and all Ghias”.
What’s the story here?
Is there a real fitment issue with a header and the mustache bar? Bouncing around all the major parts sellers and seeing how they list exhaust parts just causes confusion. |
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aeromech Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006 Posts: 16959 Location: San Diego, California
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Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 6:01 pm Post subject: Re: Need some schooling about 1 1/2” headers and early bays |
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You’re making a mistake putting a 1 1/2 inch on a 1915.
Yes, there are two different headers. One won’t fit on a bus with a mustache bar. That would be 1968-1971. _________________ Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
Capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 8:59 pm Post subject: Re: Need some schooling about 1 1/2” headers and early bays |
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the bug header muffler clocks wrong on a bus. A bug header muffler has to be cut off and welded at a different angle if you want to use it in a bus. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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Koeppler Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2011 Posts: 481 Location: Aging gracefully
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Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 8:29 am Post subject: Re: Need some schooling about 1 1/2” headers and early bays |
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Thanks guys.
Is a 1 3/8” header with stock heater boxes okay for a 1915 with 37x32 heads? And 40mm Dells?
When would a bus go up to a 1 1/2” header? And if I do need to use a 1 1/2” header it’s good to know that a muffler shop or some place could cut and weld. |
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aeromech Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006 Posts: 16959 Location: San Diego, California
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Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:16 am Post subject: Re: Need some schooling about 1 1/2” headers and early bays |
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I built a 2007cc with dual dellortos and Tiger at A1 muffler (the guy that makes the A1 Sidewinder told me that stock heater boxes and 1 3/8 was the way to go. You might ask in the performance forum _________________ Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
Capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound |
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j10nbom Samba Member
Joined: February 14, 2007 Posts: 262 Location: Philly
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Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:26 am Post subject: Re: Need some schooling about 1 1/2” headers and early bays |
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I bought the Empi 3312 single quiet pack (1-1/2") for my '71 with a 2110. It hasn't actually gone into the bus yet, but allegedly it fits '63 - '71 T2s. |
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j10nbom Samba Member
Joined: February 14, 2007 Posts: 262 Location: Philly
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Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:28 am Post subject: Re: Need some schooling about 1 1/2” headers and early bays |
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also this from an old Hot VWs...
[/img] |
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D/A/N Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2010 Posts: 2227 Location: 11222
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Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:31 pm Post subject: Re: Need some schooling about 1 1/2” headers and early bays |
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I have a somewhat similar issue but with a 1904cc and a Berg header from a motor that lived in my Type 1 once upon a time. I wrote to Berg and they told me that the header would fit an early Bay with no or with only minimal clearancing to the mustache bar. However, they did say the muffler might not fit.
As for the header for my 1904, the advice I got on the performance forum over the last year or so was the 1 1/2” size. I’m pretty sure most of those guys don’t run heater boxes though. And I once drove a 71 Westy with a 1904, stock heater boxes, and a 1 3/8” header and it was pretty great…. _________________ '69 Fuel Injected Squareback. "B" D-jet. 1600 with balanced rotating assembly and lightened flywheel. Full flow and external filter.
'70 Riviera. 1904cc w/ 40mm Dellortos, 019 distributor, Steve Tims “super stock” 37x32 heads, Web Cam 218, Vintage Speed SS143 Super Speed exhaust, 1 1/2” heater boxes |
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richparker Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2011 Posts: 6980 Location: Durango, CO
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D/A/N Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2010 Posts: 2227 Location: 11222
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richparker Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2011 Posts: 6980 Location: Durango, CO
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Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 12:05 pm Post subject: Re: Need some schooling about 1 1/2” headers and early bays |
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D/A/N wrote: |
richparker wrote: |
I run a 2275cc with stock exchanges and a VS Sport exhaust. 😳
Zoom zoom! |
Did you have to modify the mustache bar in any way? Or did you not weld flanges to the boxes and muffler? |
No. Stock mustache bar, stock mounts and stock O-ring gaskets on the heat exchangers. _________________ __________
’71 Westy build
Adventure thread
’65 Deluxe Build
’63 Deluxe Build |
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aeromech Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006 Posts: 16959 Location: San Diego, California
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Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 12:10 pm Post subject: Re: Need some schooling about 1 1/2” headers and early bays |
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I’d think you could buy a bus header for less than $100 instead of worrying if this bug header will work and modifying it. Just saying _________________ Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
Capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound |
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richparker Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2011 Posts: 6980 Location: Durango, CO
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Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 12:19 pm Post subject: Re: Need some schooling about 1 1/2” headers and early bays |
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j10nbom wrote: |
also this from an old Hot VWs...
[/img] |
This chart is perfect. I can honestly say that I rarely shift over 4000 RPMs and when I do I don’t go past 4400. I mostly shift between 3500 and 4000. Right in the range of the 1 3/8 system I’m running. My engine is built for a bus, not a Bug. It was designed for low end torque to match the stock transaxle and move the the heavy bus with ease. I’m currently in the middle of a 10 day bus tour in Colorado. The guys in the late bays with the T4/091 combo can’t keep up with me and I’m not hammering the throttle. It’s all about the torque in the mountains.
If I was building a Bug engine, I’d go for high RPMs unlike my bus engine. _________________ __________
’71 Westy build
Adventure thread
’65 Deluxe Build
’63 Deluxe Build |
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j10nbom Samba Member
Joined: February 14, 2007 Posts: 262 Location: Philly
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Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 1:19 pm Post subject: Re: Need some schooling about 1 1/2” headers and early bays |
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richparker wrote: |
This chart is perfect. I can honestly say that I rarely shift over 4000 RPMs and when I do I don’t go past 4400. I mostly shift between 3500 and 4000. Right in the range of the 1 3/8 system I’m running. My engine is built for a bus, not a Bug. It was designed for low end torque to match the stock transaxle and move the the heavy bus with ease. I’m currently in the middle of a 10 day bus tour in Colorado. The guys in the late bays with the T4/091 combo can’t keep up with me and I’m not hammering the throttle. It’s all about the torque in the mountains.
If I was building a Bug engine, I’d go for high RPMs unlike my bus engine. |
I agree with you. This chart actually has me reconsidering my previous exhaust choice. My builder said he prefers a 1-1/2" on a 2110, but like you I'm thinking the usable torque is better at a lower RPM in a heavy bus. Right now I'm running a 1-3/8" on a stock 1600 dp and the rev range almost perfectly matches a 2110 with a 1-1/2"...which is to say it's pretty gutless if you're not revving it. |
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D/A/N Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2010 Posts: 2227 Location: 11222
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Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 2:58 pm Post subject: Re: Need some schooling about 1 1/2” headers and early bays |
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j10nbom wrote: |
richparker wrote: |
This chart is perfect. I can honestly say that I rarely shift over 4000 RPMs and when I do I don’t go past 4400. I mostly shift between 3500 and 4000. Right in the range of the 1 3/8 system I’m running. My engine is built for a bus, not a Bug. It was designed for low end torque to match the stock transaxle and move the the heavy bus with ease. I’m currently in the middle of a 10 day bus tour in Colorado. The guys in the late bays with the T4/091 combo can’t keep up with me and I’m not hammering the throttle. It’s all about the torque in the mountains.
If I was building a Bug engine, I’d go for high RPMs unlike my bus engine. |
I agree with you. This chart actually has me reconsidering my previous exhaust choice. My builder said he prefers a 1-1/2" on a 2110, but like you I'm thinking the usable torque is better at a lower RPM in a heavy bus. Right now I'm running a 1-3/8" on a stock 1600 dp and the rev range almost perfectly matches a 2110 with a 1-1/2"...which is to say it's pretty gutless if you're not revving it. |
Don’t cam, valve size, and induction all factor into exhaust size too? I get keeping the torque band low, but there’s got to be some point where the engine is inhaling more air and fuel and with more velocity than it can exhale the exhaust it creates. I’m not smart enough to know what that point is though.
I’ve got a slightly larger intake (37mm) on my heads but a 32mm stock exhaust valve with a Web Cam 218 which is somewhere around an Engle 100. Mebbe I should look into one of those Vintage Speed things at some point. And maybe keep those stock heater boxes for some fall/spring heat. _________________ '69 Fuel Injected Squareback. "B" D-jet. 1600 with balanced rotating assembly and lightened flywheel. Full flow and external filter.
'70 Riviera. 1904cc w/ 40mm Dellortos, 019 distributor, Steve Tims “super stock” 37x32 heads, Web Cam 218, Vintage Speed SS143 Super Speed exhaust, 1 1/2” heater boxes |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 3:04 pm Post subject: Re: Need some schooling about 1 1/2” headers and early bays |
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Quote: |
Don’t cam, valve size, and induction all factor into exhaust size too? I get keeping the torque band low, but there’s got to be some point where the engine is inhaling more air and fuel and with more velocity than it can exhale the exhaust it creates. I’m not smart enough to know what that point is though. |
yes. That is why one first decides how the engine will be used before building it. If I want to take a car to the track and push an engine to 12,000 RPM then I will use a different exhaust than around town. I thought the chart someone posted was the best answer. It gives the optimal RPM range for a specific size header system vs displacement.
The only way to determine the best combinations is to buy an engine dyno, put together different combinations then test them, or to know someone who has done extensive work on that AND get them to share it with you. That is an engine builder's most protected secret and why their engines are better than the other guy's/gal's engines. Then you go to the track and break those engines, hoping to improve on that next. In the meantime you run out of brakes and cornering too so you have to work on those next. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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74 Thing Samba Member
Joined: September 02, 2004 Posts: 7389
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Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 3:18 pm Post subject: Re: Need some schooling about 1 1/2” headers and early bays |
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D/A/N wrote: |
j10nbom wrote: |
richparker wrote: |
This chart is perfect. I can honestly say that I rarely shift over 4000 RPMs and when I do I don’t go past 4400. I mostly shift between 3500 and 4000. Right in the range of the 1 3/8 system I’m running. My engine is built for a bus, not a Bug. It was designed for low end torque to match the stock transaxle and move the the heavy bus with ease. I’m currently in the middle of a 10 day bus tour in Colorado. The guys in the late bays with the T4/091 combo can’t keep up with me and I’m not hammering the throttle. It’s all about the torque in the mountains.
If I was building a Bug engine, I’d go for high RPMs unlike my bus engine. |
I agree with you. This chart actually has me reconsidering my previous exhaust choice. My builder said he prefers a 1-1/2" on a 2110, but like you I'm thinking the usable torque is better at a lower RPM in a heavy bus. Right now I'm running a 1-3/8" on a stock 1600 dp and the rev range almost perfectly matches a 2110 with a 1-1/2"...which is to say it's pretty gutless if you're not revving it. |
Don’t cam, valve size, and induction all factor into exhaust size too? I get keeping the torque band low, but there’s got to be some point where the engine is inhaling more air and fuel and with more velocity than it can exhale the exhaust it creates. I’m not smart enough to know what that point is though.
I’ve got a slightly larger intake (37mm) on my heads but a 32mm stock exhaust valve with a Web Cam 218 which is somewhere around an Engle 100. Mebbe I should look into one of those Vintage Speed things at some point. And maybe keep those stock heater boxes for some fall/spring heat. |
FYI the Web 218 is completely different than the Engle 100. |
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D/A/N Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2010 Posts: 2227 Location: 11222
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Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 3:28 pm Post subject: Re: Need some schooling about 1 1/2” headers and early bays |
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74 Thing wrote: |
D/A/N wrote: |
j10nbom wrote: |
richparker wrote: |
This chart is perfect. I can honestly say that I rarely shift over 4000 RPMs and when I do I don’t go past 4400. I mostly shift between 3500 and 4000. Right in the range of the 1 3/8 system I’m running. My engine is built for a bus, not a Bug. It was designed for low end torque to match the stock transaxle and move the the heavy bus with ease. I’m currently in the middle of a 10 day bus tour in Colorado. The guys in the late bays with the T4/091 combo can’t keep up with me and I’m not hammering the throttle. It’s all about the torque in the mountains.
If I was building a Bug engine, I’d go for high RPMs unlike my bus engine. |
I agree with you. This chart actually has me reconsidering my previous exhaust choice. My builder said he prefers a 1-1/2" on a 2110, but like you I'm thinking the usable torque is better at a lower RPM in a heavy bus. Right now I'm running a 1-3/8" on a stock 1600 dp and the rev range almost perfectly matches a 2110 with a 1-1/2"...which is to say it's pretty gutless if you're not revving it. |
Don’t cam, valve size, and induction all factor into exhaust size too? I get keeping the torque band low, but there’s got to be some point where the engine is inhaling more air and fuel and with more velocity than it can exhale the exhaust it creates. I’m not smart enough to know what that point is though.
I’ve got a slightly larger intake (37mm) on my heads but a 32mm stock exhaust valve with a Web Cam 218 which is somewhere around an Engle 100. Mebbe I should look into one of those Vintage Speed things at some point. And maybe keep those stock heater boxes for some fall/spring heat. |
FYI the Web 218 is completely different than the Engle 100. |
Well, to this eye the ramps/lobes look not entirely unlike a 110, which is what I meant though I know it behaves differently than a 110.
But if you’re here and actually feeling helpful maybe you can help with a question this thread is giving rise to for me: Does a Web 218 with 37x32 heads and 40 Dellortos in a heavy camper with an early 3 rib trans call for a 1 1/2” or a 1 3/8” header? Consider that my max speed is probably 70 mph given a young’un on the rear bench and that I’ll see 4500 rpm only very rarely. _________________ '69 Fuel Injected Squareback. "B" D-jet. 1600 with balanced rotating assembly and lightened flywheel. Full flow and external filter.
'70 Riviera. 1904cc w/ 40mm Dellortos, 019 distributor, Steve Tims “super stock” 37x32 heads, Web Cam 218, Vintage Speed SS143 Super Speed exhaust, 1 1/2” heater boxes |
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Koeppler Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2011 Posts: 481 Location: Aging gracefully
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Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 3:39 pm Post subject: Re: Need some schooling about 1 1/2” headers and early bays |
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j10nbom wrote: |
I bought the Empi 3312 single quiet pack (1-1/2") for my '71 with a 2110. It hasn't actually gone into the bus yet, but allegedly it fits '63 - '71 T2s. |
I checked this EMPI 3312 out. On cip1 it says “Fits: 13-1600CC BEETLE/GHIA/BUS (Pre '67 Buses without Mustache bar)”.
I’m not saying it won’t fit a 71. I’m just saying that not every retailer agrees about what headers fit what models. It sucks. |
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aeromech Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006 Posts: 16959 Location: San Diego, California
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Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:04 pm Post subject: Re: Need some schooling about 1 1/2” headers and early bays |
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Steve,
Please explain the concept of “back pressure” in this discussion because from what I’ve become to understand, an engine needs a certain amount of back pressure. Otherwise we’d all just install huge pipes to flow more than enough air. _________________ Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
Capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound |
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