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RustPatch Samba Member
Joined: August 07, 2007 Posts: 121 Location: Maple Ridge BC Canada
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Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 10:30 pm Post subject: 1955 36hp valve adjust & distributor questions. |
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Building a stock 1955 36hp engine and I have a few questions about adjusting valves and distributors.
I just got the heads back from rebuild at a local shop and I'm trying to adjust the valves. The L/H head (cyl 3&4) is fine but the R/H head I can't even get 0.002 feeler between the rocker arm and valve, let alone the adjusting screw and valve. So far I think that the problem is that the seats are cut too deep as the rocker arms that I removed were adjusted pretty flush with the end of the arm. I've been reading a lot about some options and these are the top 3 I've read: grind the end of the valves shorter, shorten the push rods, or get another head rebuilt.
So valve adjusting question is:
Am I just missing something? Assembled something wrong? Can I shim out the rocker arm with another sleeve or will that have a negative effect on something else? Not really liking any of my options ...
For reference, both heads are 1955 date stamped OE VW heads. They were both cleaned, new exhaust valves, new guides, and seats cut. All pots and pistons, camshaft, rocker arms, and pushrods (and tubes) are the ones removed from the engine and in their original position. The current L/H head was a spare I had and the R/H head is original to the engine and was the R/H head before disassembly.
Distributor questions:
Engine came with a mechanical advance 010 JFR 4 distributor and the original carb and I figure I'll just restore and use them. The drive pinion, though, had 2 shims under it but I thought 36hp engines only had 1 shim? Also I bought a new spring for it from WW but it's slightly longer and weaker than the original. Which spring is correct or will it make a difference?
Pics for reference ...
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VW_Jimbo Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2016 Posts: 9960 Location: Huntington Beach, CA
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Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 8:55 am Post subject: Re: 1955 36hp valve adjust & distributor questions. |
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What did you set the compression ratio at? _________________ Jimbo
There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!
TDCTDI wrote: |
Basically, a whole bunch of fuckery to achieve a look. |
67rustavenger wrote: |
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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RustPatch Samba Member
Joined: August 07, 2007 Posts: 121 Location: Maple Ridge BC Canada
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Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:06 pm Post subject: Re: 1955 36hp valve adjust & distributor questions. |
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VW_Jimbo wrote: |
What did you set the compression ratio at? |
Ummmm ... I had to research that just to answer the question. lol This is my 1st VW engine rebuild and I didn't know I had to set it. I did make sure the deck height was good. Can't remember the exact number off the top of my head but it was right around 0.040". |
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VW_Jimbo Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2016 Posts: 9960 Location: Huntington Beach, CA
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Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 7:52 pm Post subject: Re: 1955 36hp valve adjust & distributor questions. |
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You should figure out the cc’s of the combustion chamber and then go to Cb Performance and input your info into their online calculator. It will then tell you what you have. Because we do not know what you have. It may be super high and predetonate (knock), or super low and leaving you a gutless motor. For optimum performance and efficiency of combustion, you need to take the 5 minutes and figure it out. Worth it in the long run!
http://cbperformance.com/v/enginecalc.html
Not something everyone would take the time to do, but doing so and adjusting the engine to optimize combustion will get you a longer life engine with better performance and great gas mileage!
Good luck! Hit me back up if you need more help! _________________ Jimbo
There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!
TDCTDI wrote: |
Basically, a whole bunch of fuckery to achieve a look. |
67rustavenger wrote: |
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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RandyV Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2019 Posts: 357 Location: So Cal
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Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:52 am Post subject: Re: 1955 36hp valve adjust & distributor questions. |
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In regards to your valve adjust problem....
Any chance you took pics of the heads before bolting them on? (chamber side of course)
That might tell some for your concerns about seats.
That definitely smells suspicious if they came off OK.
As for best solution I'd say pushrods first and grinding valves last but first I'd say see what's up inside before making any decision! |
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Dan22 Samba Member
Joined: August 30, 2019 Posts: 465 Location: Battle Ground, WA
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Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 11:51 am Post subject: Re: 1955 36hp valve adjust & distributor questions. |
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I just recently put together my 1955 motor and can offer some input.
I had my case bores faced off and that adds into the geometry mix. Your deck height of 040" is at the bottom limit, according to my sources. I targeted 060" for mine. I had to use barrel shims of different thickness on each side of the block to even up the deck height.
If your heads were counterbored to clean up the cylinder mating surface that is another impact.
Of course valve seat cutting moves the valves out. Your shop should check the allowable protrusion of the stem and at least make them equal. Maybe the seats should have been replaced?
Then, the valves if you replaced them may be slightly longer than ideal, but to allow for fine tuning to equal head position.
You may have no choice if all these factors add up to shorten your pushrods. But, if you head and case faces were not machined and deck height is good, then your rocker positions should be good and swing the proper angle, and stem position is all that remains changed.
Any way, perhaps you know all this already and that is a sweet looking long block. Looks like you got the surface treatment on the case, and hardware replated. _________________ 1-0900722 die langsame grüne Schildkröte
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=765074 |
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sunroof Samba Member
Joined: October 06, 2006 Posts: 1773 Location: Winnipeg
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Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:43 pm Post subject: Re: 1955 36hp valve adjust & distributor questions. |
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OK, I have a question: Why would you ask a question about valves and then post a bunch of pictures of everything but the valves?
Don _________________ Better and better mistakes! |
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RustPatch Samba Member
Joined: August 07, 2007 Posts: 121 Location: Maple Ridge BC Canada
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Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 11:06 pm Post subject: Re: 1955 36hp valve adjust & distributor questions. |
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sunroof wrote: |
OK, I have a question: Why would you ask a question about valves and then post a bunch of pictures of everything but the valves?
Don |
lol that's a good question ... and the answer is just as boring as you'd think so I'll just post some pictures of the heads before I installed them. The new exhaust valves are Ivam from Italy. Intake valves are used OE VW and I can adjust those, but just barely. I've tried 3 different serviceable rocker arms just to be sure it had nothing to do with the rocker arms.
The one on the right is the problem head
No problem
Problem
You can see the difference pretty clearly here ... in full size anyways.(problem head on the right)
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RustPatch Samba Member
Joined: August 07, 2007 Posts: 121 Location: Maple Ridge BC Canada
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Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 11:14 pm Post subject: Re: 1955 36hp valve adjust & distributor questions. |
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Dan22 wrote: |
But, if you head and case faces were not machined and deck height is good, then your rocker positions should be good and swing the proper angle, and stem position is all that remains changed.
Any way, perhaps you know all this already and that is a sweet looking long block. Looks like you got the surface treatment on the case, and hardware replated. |
I had the case cylinder decks resurfaced and had no problems with deck height. I don't know if the machine shop I took the heads to resurfaced them, but since the old pots had copper gaskets on them I made the assumption that the heads had been surfaced before so I used new gaskets.
Thanks, I did have chem. treatment on the case and black oxide for the hardware. |
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RustPatch Samba Member
Joined: August 07, 2007 Posts: 121 Location: Maple Ridge BC Canada
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Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 11:17 pm Post subject: Re: 1955 36hp valve adjust & distributor questions. |
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VW_Jimbo wrote: |
http://cbperformance.com/v/enginecalc.html
Not something everyone would take the time to do, but doing so and adjusting the engine to optimize combustion will get you a longer life engine with better performance and great gas mileage!
Good luck! Hit me back up if you need more help! |
Thanks for the info, I wish I had found that out before I started. If I have to remove this head (which I think I will) I'm going to try this out ... the head that's on is staying on and I'll have to live with my mistake unless I find some other problem that makes me remove it. |
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RandyV Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2019 Posts: 357 Location: So Cal
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Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2021 6:50 am Post subject: Re: 1955 36hp valve adjust & distributor questions. |
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Ya that last photo definitely visible by eye even!! (And can see some differences in valve face seat height too though maybe results in even more on the back)
I'd have to rely on others here to decide if that much excess potrusion/variance is acceptable?? (In which case, yes, shortened pushrods would balance that....IF you can cleanly get valve covers on with no interference) |
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VW_Jimbo Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2016 Posts: 9960 Location: Huntington Beach, CA
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Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2021 8:34 am Post subject: Re: 1955 36hp valve adjust & distributor questions. |
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Will the combustion chambers hold water? _________________ Jimbo
There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!
TDCTDI wrote: |
Basically, a whole bunch of fuckery to achieve a look. |
67rustavenger wrote: |
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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RustPatch Samba Member
Joined: August 07, 2007 Posts: 121 Location: Maple Ridge BC Canada
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Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2021 10:23 pm Post subject: Re: 1955 36hp valve adjust & distributor questions. |
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^^ I'll have to check on the weekend; zero time to work on it this week. |
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VW_Jimbo Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2016 Posts: 9960 Location: Huntington Beach, CA
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Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 8:47 am Post subject: Re: 1955 36hp valve adjust & distributor questions. |
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RustPatch wrote: |
^^ I'll have to check on the weekend; zero time to work on it this week. |
All good! _________________ Jimbo
There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!
TDCTDI wrote: |
Basically, a whole bunch of fuckery to achieve a look. |
67rustavenger wrote: |
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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RustPatch Samba Member
Joined: August 07, 2007 Posts: 121 Location: Maple Ridge BC Canada
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Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2021 3:59 pm Post subject: Re: 1955 36hp valve adjust & distributor questions. |
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Holds water.
Cylinder 1
Cylinder 2
30 minutes later
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Miyagi Samba Member
Joined: September 08, 2019 Posts: 7 Location: CHILE
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Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2021 11:57 pm Post subject: Re: 1955 36hp valve adjust & distributor questions. |
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HI
Deck high = no less than 0.040 and no more than 0.060 (John Muir tell about more if U want less compression).
Head repair, valve seats grinding an so on, give different final position of the back of valves. Pictures show very clear. Put a ruler over de rear part of valves, are not in the same line or plane. If all 8 valves are new from one purchase, may be no error in length. (vw 52 to 57 valves 101,7 mm to 102,3 both).
Solution: new head, improbable and waste your previous money.. shims to move camshaft... ok but must be made shim by workshop, may not be perfect seat of shaft. But if you have same issues with the 4 valves, this will move all rockers at same time.
Cut or grind the valve rear part, no Sr. Damage steel proprieties near the clamping lock,
I like to use and cut second hand push rods or buy new ones to adapt each rocker.
Repair workshop no so perfect: no leakage, but left others issues to customer, or customer sent the half of repair to workshop? Not sure but one exhaust valve has an inclination or angle not like the others? Mi vision isn t good?
About the one or two shims (pinion), two is a VW upgrade. Use 2.
Spring, i have no info. sorry.
If you want a nightmare tonight: in Brazil a lot of repair shop use engine valve adjust: "ZERO GAP" OMG.
Gook Luck |
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VW_Jimbo Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2016 Posts: 9960 Location: Huntington Beach, CA
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Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2021 11:32 am Post subject: Re: 1955 36hp valve adjust & distributor questions. |
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Do your barrels fit into the combustion chambers? Anything holding them up? The barrels should contact the head inner combustion area. Does that make sense?
In this thread you can see where the cylinders touch down into the head. This guy lapped the cylinders into the hoeads.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9635346&highlight=#9635346
If the cylinders set into the heads correctly. Well, then you need to get yourself an adjustable push rod to find out what length push rods you need. I am thinking the distance between center line of crank to rocker arms is LESS than stock. See if you can prove that! Or disprove that!
Here is a thread that the guy measures for the push rod length. Empi sells a tool for this or you can easily make one from an old push rod!
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=4895028&highlight=#4895028
Good luck! _________________ Jimbo
There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!
TDCTDI wrote: |
Basically, a whole bunch of fuckery to achieve a look. |
67rustavenger wrote: |
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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RustPatch Samba Member
Joined: August 07, 2007 Posts: 121 Location: Maple Ridge BC Canada
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Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2021 10:25 pm Post subject: Re: 1955 36hp valve adjust & distributor questions. |
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So much info. I love the Samba. Thank you, everyone!
I checked a few things today before I decide which route to go.
Checked with a straight edge across the ends of the valves and they're even but not between intake and exhaust ... the exhaust valves are longer. The intake valves are used and the exhaust valves are new so I imagine it's mostly to do with that. It's very little difference but was enough that I could adjust (albeit barely) the intake valves.
Checked and the cylinder barrels fit into combustion chamber and they do appear to contact the combustion area. The only thing that could have held them up would be the "head gaskets" but those seemed to be crushed evenly all the way around on both cylinders. Maybe I shouldn't be using them? They were there on disassembly so I assumed they should go back. Although ... if the heads were to go on "further" that would essentially make the push-rods longer and compound the problem.
Also I took one of my other heads that didn't end up getting used and put a new, spare exhaust valve in it and it doesn't stick out like the ones in my problem head ... so I'm thinking I'll either have it rebuilt or I guess it's time for adjustable push-rods.
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I am thinking the distance between center line of crank to rocker arms is LESS than stock. See if you can prove that! Or disprove that!
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How does that happen? I mean, who knows how many times this engine has been opened up before or who was in it so I suppose anything is possible ... I just imagine if that were the case I'd have the same problem on both sides, no? I'd love to prove or disprove this but without taking the cases apart I don't know if I could get a reliable measurement and even if I could, what would I compare it to?
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Repair workshop no so perfect: no leakage, but left others issues to customer, or customer sent the half of repair to workshop? |
Nah, the repair shop is a good, reputable shop, everyone can make mistakes or miss things so I don't really like to point fingers ... plus look at all the new stuff I'm learning. I sent the shop 4 complete, used heads to build 2. I didn't start work on them and leave them half way. I did consider building them myself but I found that without a bunch of tooling (and experience) I'd be in over my head so I took them in. |
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