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deadaheadub Samba Member
Joined: April 18, 2004 Posts: 787 Location: New Mexico
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Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:14 pm Post subject: Re: Fix that Poptop push bar! |
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kguarnotta wrote: |
Ryan - looks like you are running into exactly what I ran into.
I only asked one guy - but he couldn't weld it. I ended up getting a friend who is an electrician to bend some conduit it up for me. |
Why wouldn't it weld? _________________ Grateful daily,
Ryan
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Past loves: '65 Bug, '70 Westy poptop, '64 Squareback project, '76 Westy tintop "Loose Lucy", '76 Westy tintop "Sharee"
Current:'84 Westy poptop "Ramblin' Rose- Rosie" w/ 2003 Subaru EJ25 conversion |
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kguarnotta Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2004 Posts: 1160 Location: Woodstock, NH
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Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:46 pm Post subject: Re: Fix that Poptop push bar! |
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The piece was sheared off - like it appeared in your pics.
I'm not a welder, so I don't really understand it. I probably could have shopped it around, but I don't know any welders where I'm living now. I had some back in Boston.
I saved my pieces - with the thought to get it fixed back in Boston at some time - but I think it will take a pretty skilled welder. The guy I asked was my mechanic - who can do some rough welding. _________________ -Kevin
Lincoln, MA
'86 Triple Knob Syncro w/EJ22
'78 Westy
'69 Single Cab
'65 Kombi - EZ-Camper |
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Ahwahnee Samba Member
Joined: June 05, 2010 Posts: 9810 Location: Mt Lemmon, AZ
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Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:17 pm Post subject: Re: Fix that Poptop push bar! |
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I see no problem welding that... even easier on the early Westy with the unpainted hardware.
My welding can be a bit rough... that's where the grinder comes in. |
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Vanagon Nut Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008 Posts: 10379 Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:47 pm Post subject: Re: Fix that Poptop push bar! |
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That bar might be galvanized. If so, someone with a welder might hesitate welding it due to toxic gases that emit as the galvanized layer is burned. But, that's a small area and in an open ventilated space, I doubt it's an issue.
I've welded up small amounts of galvanized in open ventilated spaces. I clean off the top layer, strike a bead while holding my breath, walk away, let the smoke clear, repeat.
Karl Mullendore posted here (in this thread IIRC) about welding up the bar.
If it was me, with my 110 VAC MIG, I'd grind a bit if an angle on each broken piece, (try not to shorten them) weld them and clean the other damaged part, weld it. I'd insert a plug as back up to that area.
On my bars, I didn't weld the damaged parts but did epoxy a slug into each end of the arm. So far so good after over 10 years. Thinking now, along with epoxy, I'd use a punch at OD of bar to "rivet" the slug in place maybe even doing same at ends of the bar.
As I posted in this thread, I have to wonder if there isn't a stepped piece of steel one could install in place of the broken off piece.
Neil.
My notes indicate that I used a cut off piece from a 5/8" bolt.
_________________ 1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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deadaheadub Samba Member
Joined: April 18, 2004 Posts: 787 Location: New Mexico
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Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2021 6:30 am Post subject: Re: Fix that Poptop push bar! |
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Thanks for the info. I will be searching the hardware store today and consulting with my welding neighbor. _________________ Grateful daily,
Ryan
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Past loves: '65 Bug, '70 Westy poptop, '64 Squareback project, '76 Westy tintop "Loose Lucy", '76 Westy tintop "Sharee"
Current:'84 Westy poptop "Ramblin' Rose- Rosie" w/ 2003 Subaru EJ25 conversion |
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ThinkingD Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2020 Posts: 130 Location: Ottawa Ontario Canada
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Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:41 am Post subject: Re: Fix that Poptop push bar! |
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If you pull the pins put them back in the opposite way, easier to get the spring washer on. I just did this along with the weld method, also greased the contact point with brake pad anti squeal grease (figured it would not drip in the heat). Works great looks good. _________________ 87 Titian Red Westfalia 2.0 VW I4 SOHC manual Ottawa, Ontario |
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vanis13 Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2010 Posts: 3100 Location: ABQ NM USA.... Except when not
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Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 11:15 am Post subject: Re: Fix that Poptop push bar! |
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ThinkingD wrote: |
also greased the contact point with brake pad anti squeal grease (figured it would not drip in the heat). |
nice idea. my canvas has the telltale grease streak _________________ 83.5 Westy with Subaru 2.5, 4 spd manual, center seat, COLD A/C on 134a!, Winter camp heated with an Espar B4 gasoline furnace
www.SuperVanagon.com - some stuff I make |
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deadaheadub Samba Member
Joined: April 18, 2004 Posts: 787 Location: New Mexico
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Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:53 am Post subject: Re: Fix that Poptop push bar! |
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My neighbor welded them right up. I got the steel spacers and zinc washers and he went at 'em. Put a solid steel bar inside the spacer and welded it all together. I did the grinding (not great). I think this should hold up at least another 37 years. I so appreciate this thread as it gave me enough knowledge and confidence to fix this.
_________________ Grateful daily,
Ryan
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Past loves: '65 Bug, '70 Westy poptop, '64 Squareback project, '76 Westy tintop "Loose Lucy", '76 Westy tintop "Sharee"
Current:'84 Westy poptop "Ramblin' Rose- Rosie" w/ 2003 Subaru EJ25 conversion |
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Kejidog Samba Member
Joined: July 26, 2011 Posts: 92 Location: Nova Scotia
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Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2021 3:53 pm Post subject: Re: Fix that Poptop push bar! |
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Could someone give me the length from the hole that the bolt goes through to the end of the bar? Both ends of mine broke off during removal as they were so mangled and out of round. I am going to use 3/4” washer for my uprights and I found a 5/8” bolt to fit inside to weld my ends but I am not sure the measurement of the part that is broken off.
I will post up a few more photos as the work progresses. I haven’t been active on the form lately but came back for this thread
I figure I will drill a hole or two to give the slug some bite to the pole. _________________ 85 Westy Camper "Jeebus"
"new" rebuilt 2.1 with a ten cent stainless exhaust- lovin all the power!!!! |
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deadaheadub Samba Member
Joined: April 18, 2004 Posts: 787 Location: New Mexico
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Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2021 4:24 pm Post subject: Re: Fix that Poptop push bar! |
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Kejidog wrote: |
Could someone give me the length from the hole that the bolt goes through to the end of the bar? Both ends of mine broke off during removal as they were so mangled and out of round. I am going to use 3/4” washer for my uprights and I found a 5/8” bolt to fit inside to weld my ends but I am not sure the measurement of the part that is broken off.
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Mine measures 1 9/16" or 38mm from the center of the hole to the end of the bar. I have an '84; don't know if (and don't figure) it's different lengths for different year models. _________________ Grateful daily,
Ryan
______________________________________
Past loves: '65 Bug, '70 Westy poptop, '64 Squareback project, '76 Westy tintop "Loose Lucy", '76 Westy tintop "Sharee"
Current:'84 Westy poptop "Ramblin' Rose- Rosie" w/ 2003 Subaru EJ25 conversion |
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Kejidog Samba Member
Joined: July 26, 2011 Posts: 92 Location: Nova Scotia
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Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2021 6:11 pm Post subject: Re: Fix that Poptop push bar! |
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deadaheadub wrote: |
Kejidog wrote: |
Could someone give me the length from the hole that the bolt goes through to the end of the bar? Both ends of mine broke off during removal as they were so mangled and out of round. I am going to use 3/4” washer for my uprights and I found a 5/8” bolt to fit inside to weld my ends but I am not sure the measurement of the part that is broken off.
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Mine measures 1 9/16" or 38mm from the center of the hole to the end of the bar. I have an '84; don't know if (and don't figure) it's different lengths for different year models. |
Thanks. My 85 is probably no different. _________________ 85 Westy Camper "Jeebus"
"new" rebuilt 2.1 with a ten cent stainless exhaust- lovin all the power!!!! |
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Vanagon Nut Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008 Posts: 10379 Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2021 6:25 pm Post subject: Re: Fix that Poptop push bar! |
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Kejidog wrote: |
...I am going to use 3/4” washer for my uprights and I found a 5/8” bolt to fit inside to weld my ends but I am not sure the measurement of the part that is broken off.
I figure I will drill a hole or two to give the slug some bite to the pole. |
Something I should've clarified. I bought long 5/8" bolts and used the unthreaded sections. Small detail though. Adding a slug to the ID is kind of over kill but it can't hurt.
Instead of drilling new holes, grind bolt so it fits in push bar just past factory hole, drill hole through bolt, install factory cross bolt?
If you're thinking of leaving the bolt head on, it might rub on the tent. However, one could round out the bolt head so it doesn't damage the tent.
Neil. _________________ 1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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Kejidog Samba Member
Joined: July 26, 2011 Posts: 92 Location: Nova Scotia
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Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2021 4:39 pm Post subject: Re: Fix that Poptop push bar! |
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Vanagon Nut wrote: |
Kejidog wrote: |
...I am going to use 3/4” washer for my uprights and I found a 5/8” bolt to fit inside to weld my ends but I am not sure the measurement of the part that is broken off.
I figure I will drill a hole or two to give the slug some bite to the pole. |
Something I should've clarified. I bought long 5/8" bolts and used the unthreaded sections. Small detail though. Adding a slug to the ID is kind of over kill but it can't hurt.
Instead of drilling new holes, grind bolt so it fits in push bar just past factory hole, drill hole through bolt, install factory cross bolt?
If you're thinking of leaving the bolt head on, it might rub on the tent. However, one could round out the bolt head so it doesn't damage the tent.
Neil. |
Being in the people’s republic of Canuckistan we have a limited selection of products to buy with the small amount of money we get to keep. The Commisar at Home Depot said that’s all we get so shut up and like it or go home without.
Now I need to stand in line to see if I can get some Clovis pins for my attach points. Off to another understocked hardware store to be disappointed again.
Lol. Sorry venting some vitriol on the lack of stock of anything here in Nova Scotia.
I will post some pics after me and my neighbour get it all welded up. I plan on cutting the bolt heads off and grinding them smooth and probably recessed inside the tube. Hopefully I should be done by Tuesday. I am worried my canvas may be too tight now. _________________ 85 Westy Camper "Jeebus"
"new" rebuilt 2.1 with a ten cent stainless exhaust- lovin all the power!!!! |
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Kejidog Samba Member
Joined: July 26, 2011 Posts: 92 Location: Nova Scotia
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Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2021 4:40 pm Post subject: Re: Fix that Poptop push bar! |
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Kejidog wrote: |
Vanagon Nut wrote: |
Kejidog wrote: |
...I am going to use 3/4” washer for my uprights and I found a 5/8” bolt to fit inside to weld my ends but I am not sure the measurement of the part that is broken off.
I figure I will drill a hole or two to give the slug some bite to the pole. |
Something I should've clarified. I bought long 5/8" bolts and used the unthreaded sections. Small detail though. Adding a slug to the ID is kind of over kill but it can't hurt.
Instead of drilling new holes, grind bolt so it fits in push bar just past factory hole, drill hole through bolt, install factory cross bolt?
If you're thinking of leaving the bolt head on, it might rub on the tent. However, one could round out the bolt head so it doesn't damage the tent.
Neil. |
Being in the people’s republic of Canuckistan we have a limited selection of products to buy with the small amount of money we get to keep after paying “our fair share” . The Commisar at Home Depot said that’s all we get so shut up and like it or go home without.
Now I need to stand in line to see if I can get some Clovis pins for my attach points. Off to another understocked hardware store to be disappointed again.
Lol. Sorry venting some vitriol on the lack of stock of anything here in Nova Scotia.
I will post some pics after me and my neighbour get it all welded up. I plan on cutting the bolt heads off and grinding them smooth and probably recessed inside the tube. Hopefully I should be done by Tuesday. I am worried my canvas may be too tight now. |
_________________ 85 Westy Camper "Jeebus"
"new" rebuilt 2.1 with a ten cent stainless exhaust- lovin all the power!!!! |
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Vanagon Nut Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008 Posts: 10379 Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2021 5:19 pm Post subject: Re: Fix that Poptop push bar! |
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Kejidog wrote: |
I am worried my canvas may be too tight now. |
One of the reasons I installed clevis pins was because I foresaw having to remove the assembly again due to the experimental epoxied in copper I used as a new bushing surface. And, as you found back in NS, at that time I couldn't easily source new press on type lock washers to use with the old OE pins and I wasn't certain I could rely on reusing the OE washers. (then again, those pins are under a lot of pressure so I can't see them walking out too easily or putting any real lateral stress on the lock washer)
IIRC, the SAE type clevis pins have a slightly narrower OD. If the same type of pin is installed at point where upper arm rests when top is up, this may allow the "knee" to sit further forward which in turn would let the top sit slightly lower. If a new tent was installed tight to worn out arms, though not a solution, it may help. Beware though that the knee might push against the tent.
I can't speak to specific brands but the OE tent material is quite strong and should be able to handle a bit of added tension. That said, my then new "tight German" style tent did stretch a little and stress seams a bit at some points. That was due mainly to me installing the tent slightly out of alignment. However, the tent has not failed. The screens started cracking early (even though they were never under tension) but the tent material is fine.
Neil. _________________ 1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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pnwkayaker Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2008 Posts: 920 Location: Sammamish, WA
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Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2021 8:20 am Post subject: Re: Fix that Poptop push bar! |
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I just finished installing the bearing mechanism from
https://www.werk-4.com/vw-t3-westfalia/umrüstkit-auf-lagerböcke/
my poptop (aided by JackBombay struts) raises and lowers (glides actually) super-smoothly now.
Initially I was planning to install the washer based solution, but I after reading about this solution I watched the installation video (in German) and thought it was a better solution to actually improve on the mechanism (not just repair it) and allow my wife to also raise the poptop on her own (she's shorter than me).
Link
My poptop bar was partially cut (more on one side than the other), so I filled-up the grove with JB Weld and also inserted (and JB-welded) a couple of the ACE spacers mentioned earlier in this thread. I don't have access to a welder so this is the closest I had - it should not be a problem since the bearing is wider than the original grove, so the grove is not getting cut again.
I was constantly taking pictures while dismantling and reassembling everything (planning to post an installation thread) but after watching the pics, I think the above video is far better than anything I can post.
Tools that I used:
- jigsaw with metal blade to cut the bracket
- dremmel tool to grind the freshly cut bracket (and the laser-cut pieces)
- sander to slightly sand the poptop bar to fit inside the bearings (and sand the JB weld)
- portable drill
- pop rivet installation gun
My only recommendation is if somebody wants to follow this approach is to take your time (took me several days to remove/cut/grind/reinstall everything). Also, the kit is awesome, with precision laser-cut pieces, however, VW quality control in 1987 was not that good, so I had to grind very bad welds to reduce their size inside the brackets to fit the bearing, and also deal with not perfectly perpendicular welded brackets. I also had to grind down the laser-cut pieces in some corners since neither of VW original brackets were exactly the same (fortunately, nothing crazy). The linked video shows some of the grinding/adjustment that needs to be done.
Lastly, I also replaced all the pins with clevis pins (installed from the outside to the inside) to allow for easier removal in the future (I didn't repaint the mechanism, and it's something I might do early next year, before camping season restarts). _________________ 87 Syncro Westy EJ25 ("Tardis")
Seattle Meetup at Marymoor (link)
A collection of Simple Useful Mods (SUM) (link) |
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Kejidog Samba Member
Joined: July 26, 2011 Posts: 92 Location: Nova Scotia
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Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2021 5:13 pm Post subject: Re: Fix that Poptop push bar! |
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Hey all. I am happy to have my bar fixed and it reinstalled in the van. I walked up the street to my neighbour’s house.
We welded the washers on. It was surprising how out of round the holes were. They went pretty easy. Then we straightened the bolt to the bar and tacked it on. Cut the big head off to have it recessed into the bar. Put the broken piece on nice and straight then Filled it with weld, ground it down, and filed it. Filed it some more, and put it all together. The hole for the bar into the hinge was a bit shall we say, beaten in anger to get it all apart. It’s all good though.
The top is nicely taut. Thanks everyone for the info. I smoothed the bar and the washer holes with much filing and a fair bit of polishing with sandpaper Sprayed it with a dry graphite spray and installed everything this afternoon.
I happy.[youtube] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4TYv2PhG89A [/youtube]
Been singing this song all evening. _________________ 85 Westy Camper "Jeebus"
"new" rebuilt 2.1 with a ten cent stainless exhaust- lovin all the power!!!! |
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pnwkayaker Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2008 Posts: 920 Location: Sammamish, WA
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Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2021 6:11 am Post subject: Re: Fix that Poptop push bar! |
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Looks great, well done!
I think this is one of the best threads in The Samba, there're so many different options detailed and success stories write-ups, that it's almost a no brainer to do preventive maintenance on the poptop push bar before it breaks. _________________ 87 Syncro Westy EJ25 ("Tardis")
Seattle Meetup at Marymoor (link)
A collection of Simple Useful Mods (SUM) (link) |
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pnwkayaker Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2008 Posts: 920 Location: Sammamish, WA
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Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2021 11:42 am Post subject: Re: Fix that Poptop push bar! |
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I’ve got requests from a couple folks to post some of the pics on how I installed the poptop bearing mechanism from https://www.werk-4.com/vw-t3-westfalia/, hopefully they’ll be useful for somebody.
First, this is how my pushbar mechanism looked before I started dismantling it, doesn’t look that bad, right?
Bzz, wrong answer! As you can see, there’s already a very deep grove in the pushbar, and since it’s hollow, the walls of the pipe were about to be breached. Not shown here (didn’t take pictures) is how I used JB Weld to fill the grove and to add the ACE spacers. Once that’s done, you’ll need to sand/grind the pipe to make it smooth again (might need to remove some extra so that the pipe will correctly run inside the bearings)
The kit is very well thought, and everything shows high quality/workmanship - all the adjustments that I had to made were due to the lack of consistent manufacturing from VW. The kit has 2 different metal plates for each arm of the poptop mechanism, one that goes on the side of the bracket where the welds are located and another on the other side. The portion of the bracket that you can see inside the circle will be removed.
Since you’ll be grinding each metal plate to fit the unique configuration (aka lack of consistent weld/quality control from VW in the 80s) of each arm/bracket, it’s a great idea to label each one, and to also remember if the label goes on the inside or outside
The kit comes with a template that you can use to mark the cutouts and the holes to be drilled (see that I also marked the bracket to match the plates labelled before). I found the template to work correctly only on one arm, the other arm was so out of whack that I ended up using the plates themselves as templates (after they were adjusted to fit correctly). Here you can see the holes already drilled.
The two plates will be joined with pop rivets, I used them as guides to ensure both plates were fitting correctly and were aligned before making any cut (a Dremel tool worked great to adjust the holes sizes and to grind the plates)
After all is done, it’s time to do cut the bracket (a jigsaw with metal blades worked great); in these pics you can see that I also had to grind the welds so the plates will fit correctly.
The reason for cutting the bracket is so that the bearing will fit correctly (of course, it didn't fit so great after the cut, this picture was taken after a good amount of Dremel was applied)
I used 4 long screws with nuts to ensure that the 2 metal plates will remain aligned during the assembly process.
I removed the plates and used a vice and wooden blocks to insert the bearing into one of the plates. Then I used the screws shown before to align the two plates with the mechanism and the same wood blocks and vice (shown in the picture) to insert the bearing in the second plate.
After that, I removed one screw and replaced it with a pop rivet, one by one. The pics below show the final configuration of both arms, I think (though I cannot remember) that I had to reverse the order of the pop rivets between arms so that it would clear the wall correctly. I used clevis pins to complete the installation.
_________________ 87 Syncro Westy EJ25 ("Tardis")
Seattle Meetup at Marymoor (link)
A collection of Simple Useful Mods (SUM) (link) |
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Jake de Villiers Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2007 Posts: 5911 Location: Tsawwassen, BC
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