Rear drop opening window

[DuncanS]

A few have expressed interest in this mod I did and so I'll write up what I did along with stuff which I shouldn't have done.

I tend to be windy and get diverted with asides, so bear with me. Also since the project has come to a working pause, but not the final version, I won't do the entire deal in a single post as it would be too long and there are other things need doing since the car is now only marginally drivable.....well it works fine, but.........

And besides, in spite of being careful, posts often disappear into the ether and losing a long post is a royal pain. In fact just lost part of this one in spit of copying and saving.....

The window project got interupted because a new whim took my interest and since the window was working, I decided it was close enough for the time being and so moved on to:

I warned you there would be asides.

Ever since my first T3 in '83 I discovered the dead air in the back 60% of the interior really bothered me. Then there was an '85 and when I bought my '87 through the tourist delivery program and took delivery in Germany. I ordered it with the factory sunroof option. I had a company then and they were company cars, thus the frequent new ones and the sunroof. But time moved on and the '87 was never undercoated and after ten years of being a daily driver in Vermont, the salt made the car uninspectable. I cut the top off hoping to graft it to a different one, but only managed to salvage the Sears sunroof I had installed the first year.

This is my current car, but you get the idea.

When I took the sunroof, I harvested a bunch of other stuff including the PS power window and both vent wing windows. The DS had been smashed by vandals. Did not get the rubber which might have helped, but in the end, it didn't matter.

Having handled the glass and regulator, I had a thought. Given the dead air problem and the size of the window.......I wonder? Measured and yes. Took off the two interior DS rear panels and measured again and yes.

A while back a friend of mine had a problem with his DS powered window and asked if I could take a look at it for him. I had a beer while he dismantled the switches and panel. I then saw that he had an aftermarket regulator with the motor behind the rear speaker. That would be perfect for my project and so contacted Stacy, AKA 16CVs. He said he had aftermarket regulators and so I bought one. I had assumed it would be like my friends, but wasn't. It basically is a powered manual one where a motor goes into a square drive socket at the standard manual window crank handle would go.

First mistake. Shudda obtained one like my friends, but after checking it out decided it would work fine. It got hung on a nail and was garage art for about 5 years.

Then this spring decided to go for it. The plan basically was to use two vent window posts and have the window slide on them.

First step was to measure everything and make a full sized drawing of what I had.

And with the glass and regulator in position

Duncan

[kguarnotta]

I am so intrigued, but have to say I love the expression "Garage Art"
With that in mind, I have a veritable museum in my garage...

Looking forward to the rest of this build project.
_________________
-Kevin
Lincoln, MA

'86 Triple Knob Syncro w/EJ22
'78 Westy
'69 Single Cab
'65 Kombi - EZ-Camper

[Zeitgeist 13]

I really like the idea, but what's your plan for dealing with water intrusion?
_________________
Casey--

'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik?

[Steve M.]

[DuncanS]

Great comments about water intrusion. If they don't rust out the front doors, why should they rust out the rear area? There is already a factory hole there so water can get out. I have my ECU in that spot with a plastic rain guard protecting it, but with plenty of cooling air capability. It's been there for 5 years without a problem. Will see how the rain deals with it.

My original plan was to have a hole in the deepest part of the area to let water out and protect it from mud and so on with a reverse scoop, This guy facing back and upside down from the pic. Figured to cut a wedge piece of 1/2" copper pipe and JB weld it in place.

But I didn't have mud in the bottom of the panel area and so after 30 years, I guess it's OK as it is.

Duncan



The next step was to cut a 5/8" wide slot the length of the glass plus the dimension of the two vent window channel guides. I had worried about this part of the design for a number of months trying to think of an adequate solution to create the two verticals which the scrapers clip to. Rather than welding, I decided that a couple of sheet metal angles pop riveted in place would work. Lo and behold, after making the cut, I discovered that because of the metal shape, it was really rigid without any need for a vertical element to strengthen it. In the end, I just fastened the scrapers down with some clear silicone. Done.

However, it's not as easy as I make it sound. The window is not square nor are the two vertical edges parallel. The top length is almost 3/16ths shorter than the bottom. This means that if I slap the guides against the glass when in the closed or up position, by the time it is lowered all the way, the glass won't engage the guides at the bottom. Thus a compromise. Tight at the bottom when the glass is up and a bit loose at the top so the guides aren't so wide apart at their bottoms.

Also the glass does not have square corners, or rather the edges are not at 90º to the top edge. So this means the bottom of the window is about 3/4" farther back at the bottom compared with the top. The front guide has to slope aft a bit.

Here's a shot of the distance away from the original frame with the guid tight against the frame at the top.

What I did next was hammer the screw tab at the top of the guide flat and fastened in into the frame with a number 6 sheet metal screw to secure it. Then with the wedge at the bottom to give me the right position I mixed up some epoxy peanut butter and smeared it around to secure the bottom. After it cured, I knocked out the wooden wedge and filled that hole. The 5/8ths wide slot goes back far enough so the guide can be moved back to clear the glass so it can be removed. The top is secured in a square hole in the frame and the guide goes up into it about a 1/4". So to remove the glass, which I did 10,000 times, you drop the guide until it clears the hole and move the bottom part back and the guide is now completely clear of the glass. The guide is held in position at the bottom by a bolt that goes into a factory threaded tab.

Huge mistake. Don't do it this way. Even though I measured carefully and marked where to cut the top back guide hole, it wasn't in the right spot. This means that the two guides are not quite in the same plane. Not off by much, but the glass doesn't slide as easily as it should. The correct way to do this would be to lightly tack the bottom of the front guide in with epoxy and then do the back guide. Put the glass in and where ever the top of the front guide lands, tack that as well with epoxy. Put the screw in after everything has cured and you have checked to see if the window slides easily. All of these tests raising and lowering were done with a strip of gorilla tape applied to goth sides of the top center of the glass with a 6" folded over section projecting above the glass. To hold it up, I just pinched the tape to the rain gutter with a spring clamp.

Here's a shot of the tape.

[DuncanS]

I didn't mean to sound too cavalier about water intrusion, but I'm not overly worried about it. Plan A is to go with the new VW OG scaper and see what happens with the interior panels removed. Plan B is to paint the inside of the entire area with truck bed liner and see what happens. Plan C is to get some thin black plastic tubing and cut a 60º section out lengthwise and silicone it to the exterior window sill so the plastic leans into the glass with enough force to strongly encourage the water not to go inside. Will move the ECU forward of the C pillar if the water situation is bad. And of course add more protected holes for drainage.

That video shows why our electric window motors fail.

[Steve M.]

[DuncanS]

Thanks, Steve. This takes my water intrusion worries from 30 to zero.

[dobryan]

I'd strongly recommend painting the inside of that body panel with a good two part epoxy paint including all the way down to the lowest level the water can go. Then coat the heck out of it with waxoyl or cosmoline to create a wax barrier that will not crack as the body flexes. Bed liner is not a good product for this scenario imo.

No matter what you do some amount of water will eventually get in there but if you prep it right it does not have to be a cause for rust (at least not quickly).

BTW I like the way you think.
_________________
Dave O
'87 Westy w/ 2002 Subaru EJ25 and Peloquin TBD

"To travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive." Robert Louis Stevenson

MD>Canada>AK>WA>OR>CA>AZ>UT>WY>SD
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620646

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https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746794

[?Waldo?]

I commend your creativity and willingness to experiment. Not to rain on your parade (pardon the pun) but as others have mentioned water will pour in there. The video that Steve M. posted shows the normal amount of water that passes good condition scraper 'seals'. There are water drains in the doors to allow that water to exit the bottoms of the doors. I do not believe there are any factory water drains in the body under the rear windows.

Jalousie windows seem way easier to implement and do not allow water into the body. Other benefits include that they can easily accommodate a screen and allow ventilation when parked in the rain without allowing water in. I think it would be easier to install jalousie windows even if you converted them to power.

[DuncanS]

No one ever rains on my parade. You are giving me well received advice. And it's not a parade. as no one is following---luckily for them--so it's raining just on me. A nice gentle summer cooling.

And you are right. There is no factory hole there. The bad news is there is a hole there.

Really hard to see, but it's in the exact middle of the photo and about 3/8" in diameter. Also it's up 3/8" above the bottom of the well, so bad as well as worthless. The hole is about 2" forward of the trailing arm bushing, so this has to be above the pivot weldment and near the jack support.

Further investigation is required. Will dump some water in and see where it comes out. I think at this point the best thing is to clean up the rust as well as possible and hit the area with rust converter. Then make a sloping floor to the well So the water can go forward away from the jack point and have it exit there. Thanks again for the comment.

[16CVs]

I would drape a piece of 3 mil plastic from that top inside edge all the way to the bottom so as to cover all of those open stampings and send any water that gets in down past the opening and out through the holes you drill in the top of the wheel well.

I would fasten it in place with edge guard welt, which would hold the plastic in place as well as cover your cut edge.

Stacy
_________________
1987 Syncro Westfalia Triple knob (bastard)
1989 Syncro Tristar Triple knob "Swedish"
2013 Jetta Hybrid a true "Zwitter"
Samba member # 14980
Call anytime number 650 722 4914 .
Keep Your van running and upkept tastefully for the love of the hobby.
Don't let your van end up in an "abortions" thread.

[DuncanS]

Thanks, Stacy--Already had done this to protect the ECU. Your idea is a little more thorough and when the time comes to put in the regulator motor, I'll do a better job. When I took out the rear heater, I also moved ithe ECU's cable grommet to the extreme side of the sloping wall. This gained enough length to put it where you see it--been there for 5 years with no issues--but now with the window, I'll take some of the slack from the tranny area and move it forward of the C pillar. I'll have to remove all of the leads to fish it through as I don't want to carve a hole in the C pillar big enough for the connector.

Duncan

[DuncanS]

Lost another lengthy post.

First dealing with the wiper leakage and getting rid of the water.

There's a hole there now and no water inside and so guess I'll just leave it that way until I can get the car back together so if I get stopped, I won't wind up in jail. Nothing illegal I know about, but a dash like this and a headlight like this won't help the cop feel charitable.

[DuncanS]

Opps--hit Submit instead of Preview.

The Admiral poured a cup of water into the rear window well and the water immediately came out about where the trailing arm bushing is. And no water inside afterwards to speak of. For now, I'll fill the area with some tar to get it slightly above the hole so no swamp issues after that. Then later build a sloping flat to a new drain hole so no standing water is left inside.

Back to the build:

A strap show is some of the photos. To be able to operate the glass easily, I fabricated a bit of tin that bolts into the bottom glass holder. Then a piece of leather belt is bolted to that. It allowed me to raise and lower the glass to get the various components in place. and in fact, wound up being what I'm currently using to provide the opening I want. Holes are punched in the leather and they catch on the stud in the tin provides whatever position is needed.

There was a deep deformation in the inner tin for strength which I had to remove to allow the glass to go down behind. I cut the creases and then bent it to the same plane as the rest of the liner.

This photo shows the rear seat back and seat belt support weldments back in place and a piece of roof metal I used to reinforce the cuts made to get it flat.

Here the fully pop riveted piece is in place and a bent rod made into a handle. With the handle going into the motor socket, I was able to crank the window, but was surprised and how hard it was to turn. I think the regulator may be somewhat twisted and will sort that out in the fall. The five unused holes are what the motor and regulator bolt into. I would have rather welded the cuts, but I only have a heavy duty stick welder. I surprised at how stiff and strong the inner tin became after the "patch" was riveted in place. Close enough.

However, even before the "crank" test, I was worried the wimpy motor wouldn't be able to handle the load of reliably opening and closing the window. When I bought the regulator, Stacy said he wasn't happy with them. I decided to make a bungie/spring counter balance to eliminate the weight of the glass.

The longer the bungie, the less difference there would be in terms of countering the weight in the full up or full down position. So this was my idea. Pretty Rube Goldberg, but it made a big difference. The pulleys are mounted where they would finally attach to either the B or C pillar. On the first attempt, I used small boat pulleys I had lying around, but the 3/8" bungie hated going around the sheaves and so the stretch only happened for the first pulley. Hard to see in the photo, but there are two other small pulleys after the clothesline ones. But the bungie is cut on either side and a piece of small nylon line is what actually goes around the sheave. This reduces the friction so the full length of the bungie now is incorporated during the raising and lowering. I used a 1:2 ratio so the bungie only has to stretch half the distance the window actually moves. Of course, this means it has to lift twice the weight, so there is a real load on the 3/8" bungie doing it's job.

The window is in the full up position in this photo. When down, the pulley to the right of the left clothesline pulley goes almost to the C pillar.

Duncan

[danfromsyr]

Duncan, you do always take your lunacy to further moons.

but expressing your creativity and engineering.. you work it out in practice.

my solution was a rear slider, though we don't leave it open while camped/camping it makes a good 'ice cream' window..

Scout (rip)

Murphy

_________________

[DuncanS]

I'm going to do the same thing, but full size with the sloping back edge. The slider door item is big enough and the frame will get cut down and the joints welded. Then the problem is the glass. If I cut a piece of plexiglass so it has the right angle, it will be too thick. And when it goes forward, the opening isn't very big. So two pieces of plexiglass, with the right length to max the opening. But 1/4" plexi is too thick, so it will have to get rabbeted at the upper and lower edge to be able to slide. And the window is designed so the back piece is fixed, so that will take some messing with. I want the fixed glass to be in front and on the outside. It will be powered as will the slider door window. That way I will be able to adjust all 6 windows while driving. I just reach back and do the DS slider manually. If a lady is driving, is it done womanually? In my case, it's probably nutjobually.

Over the winter. People in northern New England complain about the length of the winters. For me, the winters aren't long enough as I still don't get all the projects done in time for summer.

And finally two close ups of the upper guide fastenings.

This aft hole look sloppy, but the guid is firmly held with no wiggle.

Duncan

[kguarnotta]

This is amazing...
two questions spring to mind - (probably more when I look at this more closely)
1 - Why are you using bungee as opposed to rope, cable or wire?
2 - what is that white stuff on the wall of your van?
_________________
-Kevin
Lincoln, MA

'86 Triple Knob Syncro w/EJ22
'78 Westy
'69 Single Cab
'65 Kombi - EZ-Camper

[dobryan]

[dobryan]

When you have to pop rivet a piece in you can use panel adhesive as well and you'll get a very strong bond. No welding needed in that circumstance.
_________________
Dave O
'87 Westy w/ 2002 Subaru EJ25 and Peloquin TBD

"To travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive." Robert Louis Stevenson

MD>Canada>AK>WA>OR>CA>AZ>UT>WY>SD
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620646

Building a bus for travel in Europe (euroBus)
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=695371

The Western Syncro build
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746794