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Postmortem of Failed Auto Tranny Needed
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metropoj
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 10:12 am    Post subject: Postmortem of Failed Auto Tranny Needed Reply with quote

Good day everyone. I wanted to share the following pics of a mechanically destroyed tranny I picked up on the cheap for its Transaxle case.

**Warning: contains graphic pictures of carnage **

The Ring and Pinion badly damaged, the pinion obliterated, the picture doesn't do it justice ..

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The pan was a huge mix of silver goo, my assumption was the grinding up metal mixing with the oil until it just sort of hardened up. There were big slivers of the pinion within that oil and around the magnet.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The Pinion shaft bearings were so washed with the silver slurry that it ground the Pinion bearing race to a brilliant dull finish.

I also opened up the Transmission side of things .. It was a little concerning ...

Pan bottom ...

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Filter

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The filter is peculiar. There were a few larger pieces of metal in there that almost looked like the same metal as i saw on the transaxle side of things. The 2 shaft seals that help separate Transaxle oil form Tranny didn't look like they were completely destroyed.

Would you think that shrapnel could pass into the tranny pan and get filtered by the screen or most likely, there is additional damage in the transmission part unrelated to the Transaxle shrapnel...

This transmission had someone in there before, I see some screws have slight damage from being apart before. Not necessarily a bad thing but time will tell.


Analysis of what you think may have happened would be of interest ...

I am also thinking to tear this transmission down further as a learning tool and will share more once I get to that point.
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jberger
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 10:58 am    Post subject: Re: Postmortem of Failed Auto Tranny Needed Reply with quote

I'm guessing that transaxle was coupled to a (insert name here) engine swap?

J
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skills@eurocarsplus
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 11:04 am    Post subject: Re: Postmortem of Failed Auto Tranny Needed Reply with quote

jberger wrote:
I'm guessing that transaxle was coupled to a (insert name here) engine swap?

J


seeing how the diff looks like it's full of ATF i'd say intermix took it out
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metropoj
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 11:07 am    Post subject: Re: Postmortem of Failed Auto Tranny Needed Reply with quote

Quote:

seeing how the diff looks like it's full of ATF i'd say intermix took it out


Damn, no, in this case, the diff cover was already off when the auto tranny pan was still dripping fluids into the diff section.

So, I didn't see any 'fluid in the transaxle, just the goo of silver.
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brickster
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 2:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Postmortem of Failed Auto Tranny Needed Reply with quote

I’d say either misadjustment of the R&P or using incorrect gear oil and/or neglecting change intervals.
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DanHoug
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 3:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Postmortem of Failed Auto Tranny Needed Reply with quote

post mortem? ran low on gear lube....
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?Waldo?
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 3:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Postmortem of Failed Auto Tranny Needed Reply with quote

What is the R+P ratio?
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Postmortem of Failed Auto Tranny Needed Reply with quote

There area a total of four seals that separate the ATF and the gear oil. You have the two shaft seals, the governor shaft seal, and the inner pinion seal.
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metropoj
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Postmortem of Failed Auto Tranny Needed Reply with quote

?Waldo? wrote:
What is the R+P ratio?


Oh, hmm, are they marked perhaps on the gear face somewhere readable ? It came as 'broken' from the VW shop .
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Postmortem of Failed Auto Tranny Needed Reply with quote

metropoj wrote:
?Waldo? wrote:
What is the R+P ratio?


Oh, hmm, are they marked perhaps on the gear face somewhere readable ? It came as 'broken' from the VW shop .


You can count the teeth on the gears and do a little division.
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?Waldo?
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 8:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Postmortem of Failed Auto Tranny Needed Reply with quote

Yup, count the teeth on the ring = R, count the teeth on the pinion = P. R/P=?.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 8:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Postmortem of Failed Auto Tranny Needed Reply with quote

A reasonable alternative to stating the ratio is simply stating the ring:pinion teeth count. Ratios on the left, ring:pinion counts on the right (manual transmissions). Each provide helpful information for different points of consideration.

- 5.50 = 6:33
- 5.43 = 7:38
- 4.86 = 7:34
- 4.83 = 6:29

What is the thinking in tracking down the ratio for the R&P in this case? Is one ratio such as the 3.27 more likely to grenade than a 4.09? Thanks.
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Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, 280 ah LFP battery, 160 watts solar, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.

Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro).
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?Waldo?
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 9:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Postmortem of Failed Auto Tranny Needed Reply with quote

Those are the ratios for the manual trans, not automatic. The manuals also have the 4.57, and aftermarket 4.14.

The ratios that are currently available for the automatic include:

4.45, 4.09 (stock), 3.73 (stock with some euro models), 3.27, and 3.08. I do not know the relative tooth counts for each.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 9:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Postmortem of Failed Auto Tranny Needed Reply with quote

?Waldo? wrote:
Those are the ratios for the manual trans, not automatic. The manuals also have the 4.57, and aftermarket 4.14.

The ratios that are currently available for the automatic include:

4.45, 4.09 (stock), 3.73 (stock with some euro models), 3.27, and 3.08. I do not know the relative tooth counts for each.


Yes, those ratios applying to the manual trans is exactly what I said when I posted them.

My question was:

Quote:
What is the thinking in tracking down the ratio for the R&P in this case? Is one ratio such as the 3.27 more likely to grenade than a 4.09? Thanks.

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Abscate wrote:
Do not get killed, do not kill others.


Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, 280 ah LFP battery, 160 watts solar, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.

Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro).
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?Waldo?
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 9:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Postmortem of Failed Auto Tranny Needed Reply with quote

I have heard of some of the 3.27 R+P's having issues. I saw a pic of one that looked much the same. It might even be the same one.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


If it is the 3.27 it might or might not mean anything but I'd like to file it as a data point.

If metropoj's R+P is a stock 4.09 it would be useful information to me.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:45 am    Post subject: Re: Postmortem of Failed Auto Tranny Needed Reply with quote

Thank you, Waldo. I was curious as to why you asked about the R&P ratio and if the "super flier" 3.27 R&P was a point of interest for you.

The Vanagon auto transmission may be a good option to consider as manual transmissions break down and owners (like me) continue to hear praise for their autos form other owners. If we don't convert to electric before the next transmission rebuild.

I'm interested to hear what ratio this R&P is.
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Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, 280 ah LFP battery, 160 watts solar, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.

Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro).
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natejohn
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2021 3:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Postmortem of Failed Auto Tranny Needed Reply with quote

Is it possible that the thing was towed for a super long distance?
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?Waldo?
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2021 3:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Postmortem of Failed Auto Tranny Needed Reply with quote

No one should ever tow a Vanagon with an automatic transmission with rear wheels on the ground without disconnecting the driveshafts, however, I do not believe that will ruin the R+P.
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Zeitgeist 13
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2021 9:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Postmortem of Failed Auto Tranny Needed Reply with quote

I thought it might be fun to post a pic of a stock 4.09 R&P and an aftermarket 3.08 version side by side.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Stock is on the left
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metropoj
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 4:55 am    Post subject: Re: Postmortem of Failed Auto Tranny Needed Reply with quote

?Waldo? wrote:
Yup, count the teeth on the ring = R, count the teeth on the pinion = P. R/P=?.


Ahhh Math, my old Nemesis Smile It is a stock 4.09 ratio (45/11).

Got all the guts pulled from the tranny last night that are junk. It was good to have something to dismantle that I can check out before I disassemble the good guts from the tranny with the bad case.

I'll probably post pics about bearings etc. soon on my 'good guts' regarding wear once I see them. If I'm in this far, why not just do them .... We have a press at work I can probably use.

I have some seals etc. to order up soon. I will leave the Transmission part and TC to an expert for the good one, my other scrapped tranny I will poke around with.

... There is a 924 auto not far from me here at the wreckers, may try and pull that out for parts.
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