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halbug Samba Member
Joined: March 09, 2006 Posts: 455 Location: Germany
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Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 12:56 am Post subject: Installing shorter IRS axles |
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Hi there, can someone help me with how to set up rear axles with shorter SAW axles?
I am using Mendeola True Track trailing arms, with narrowed track width. I bought short axles from Sway-a-Way to go with them.
I noticed that the SAW axles do not have a flange at the end of the splines like VW ones have. This may allow for some variation and also accounts for the different lenghth reqiured right to left axle. However, the CV joints have a press fit on the splines, so they will not "find" there right location by themselves.
How do I determine where to place the inner splined ball hub on the axle, so that it is in the right location to the outer ball cage of the CV joint and will work properly?
Any suggestions? _________________ Stealth Ghia Transformation: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7226044&highlight=#7226044
My Berg5: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=730276&start=0 |
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NJ John Samba Member
Joined: September 21, 2007 Posts: 2222 Location: HdG, MD & NJ
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Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 5:28 am Post subject: Re: Installing shorter IRS axles |
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I believe that inner flange is considered a CV buster in the off road world. Someone who actually have used these should chime in. _________________ 1973 standard, yellow, lowered, 3” narrowed front, 1600 blo-thru turbo w/single dell 15.4@86, so far
11.41 et buggy. Long gone
Let’s go O’s! Let’s go O’s!
https://www.youtube.com/@AirSpooledGarage |
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RickS Samba Member
Joined: May 05, 2005 Posts: 430 Location: Speonk, NY
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Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 6:23 am Post subject: Re: Installing shorter IRS axles |
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Clean the splines on the axles and cv joints. They do indeed float and find their own place.
I’ve used these on 2 cars with IRS and bus transmissions. One car also had 1 5/8” narrowed control arms. |
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halbug Samba Member
Joined: March 09, 2006 Posts: 455 Location: Germany
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Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2021 2:56 am Post subject: Re: Installing shorter IRS axles |
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Rick, thank you for your reply! Simply cleaning them up will not make them float for sure in my case. It would take some sanding and clearancing to make them move freely.
VW has a press fit and positive stops inner and outer on each CV, so I am not sure floating CVs are the only solution? I am looking for longevity.
Maybe I have to mesure where the sweet spot is through the complete range of suspension movement. Or set it optimal for normal standing height? I assume the CV is set perfectly when the inner race is exactly center to the outer?
Any advice is welcome, and maybe floating is the right thing to do. I am just not sure yet
Cheers Lars _________________ Stealth Ghia Transformation: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7226044&highlight=#7226044
My Berg5: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=730276&start=0 |
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cbeck Samba Member
Joined: January 14, 2014 Posts: 2495 Location: high ridge, mo
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Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2021 4:33 am Post subject: Re: Installing shorter IRS axles |
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The axle has to float in the cv's to accommodate the distance between the drive flanges changing during wheel travel.
_________________ My cut in half and rebuild thread
www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=647779 |
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jsturtlebuggy Samba Member
Joined: August 24, 2005 Posts: 4496 Location: Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
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Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2021 9:17 am Post subject: Re: Installing shorter IRS axles |
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Hajbug I don’t know where you found the information that VW CV joints are a press fit on the axles, it is wrong. All CV joints on any VW vehicle I worked on in the last 50 years, the CV joints have been a slip fit on the splines. The early ones did use a concave washer on the inner stop on the axles along with the circlip on the outside.
SwayAway made axles so that there was inner stop and longer splines so CV would float on axle. Yes the inner stop was a CV breaker when being used off road (from personal experience).
If your CVS do not easily slide on axle splines, you need to find out why. If you hammered on the CV to get on splines, get out the three corner file and clean it up.
And I have shorten aftermarket axles to fit. It something you have to do since you cannot always find the correct length axle without spending big money for custom made. _________________ Joseph
Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
Elrod Motorsports
Motion Tire Motorsports
Having fun with Dune Buggies since 1970
Into Volkswagens since 1960 |
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halbug Samba Member
Joined: March 09, 2006 Posts: 455 Location: Germany
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halbug Samba Member
Joined: March 09, 2006 Posts: 455 Location: Germany
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Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2021 4:53 am Post subject: Re: Installing shorter IRS axles |
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jsturtlebuggy wrote: |
Hajbug I don’t know where you found the information that VW CV joints are a press fit on the axles, it is wrong. All CV joints on any VW vehicle I worked on in the last 50 years, the CV joints have been a slip fit on the splines. The early ones did use a concave washer on the inner stop on the axles along with the circlip on the outside.
SwayAway made axles so that there was inner stop and longer splines so CV would float on axle. Yes the inner stop was a CV breaker when being used off road (from personal experience).
If your CVS do not easily slide on axle splines, you need to find out why. If you hammered on the CV to get on splines, get out the three corner file and clean it up.
And I have shorten aftermarket axles to fit. It something you have to do since you cannot always find the correct length axle without spending big money for custom made. |
Joseph and All, thank you for all your comments!
I will find out what it takes to make my CV's float on those shorter SAW axles of mine. At the end this seems to be a much simpler way to make things work. Also because of the differnt lenght left to right and it seems to be working fine in your guy's rides!
The original shop manual speaks about pressing the CVs on and off plus VW has been using positive stops in and out, so I thought I will do the same with just different dimensions for the new control arms...
But like you said, I will make the CVs float and give it a try.
Thanks all
Lars _________________ Stealth Ghia Transformation: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7226044&highlight=#7226044
My Berg5: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=730276&start=0 |
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halbug Samba Member
Joined: March 09, 2006 Posts: 455 Location: Germany
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RickS Samba Member
Joined: May 05, 2005 Posts: 430 Location: Speonk, NY
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Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 6:31 am Post subject: Re: Installing shorter IRS axles |
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I would disassemble, debur and then reassemble with the proper grease. Made in China means rough around the edges. |
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Ian Godfrey Samba Member
Joined: September 25, 2006 Posts: 1137 Location: Melbourne Australia
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Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 4:37 pm Post subject: Re: Installing shorter IRS axles |
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part of this is a tricky question. The outer... yours seems to have a chamfer on both sides so it is hard to know which side should face the flange.
the star and cage do matter and are straight forward.
star flat side and the cage flat side go on the flange end and
star side with the depression and the cage bevel side go on the shaft side.
there are some great photos here
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0 |
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Ian Godfrey Samba Member
Joined: September 25, 2006 Posts: 1137 Location: Melbourne Australia
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Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 8:00 pm Post subject: Re: Installing shorter IRS axles |
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looking at your photos again I think the top one is all correct for the axle boot side.
Flat outer mounting face
Bevelled cage
Raised area on the star
But I do agree with disassemble, probably sand all the inside edges of the cages
and reassemble with the small point on the star to the wide section on the outer.
don't forget to 'clock' the CV's at each end of the axle. |
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halbug Samba Member
Joined: March 09, 2006 Posts: 455 Location: Germany
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Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:15 am Post subject: Re: Installing shorter IRS axles |
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On the top foto the inside star with the step flange on the face as well as the beveled side of the cage are good to go onto the shaft side. So far clear.
The outside cage I think needs to be facing the other way for two reasons. The flange face in below picture has a step to receive a gasket, included in the box. I assume that side should go to the rubber boot = axle side. The other face of the cage has flat surface (top picture) and I would mount this rather to the flange for best contact?!? Doesn't the outer slot on the cage also indicate the flange side? _________________ Stealth Ghia Transformation: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7226044&highlight=#7226044
My Berg5: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=730276&start=0 |
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halbug Samba Member
Joined: March 09, 2006 Posts: 455 Location: Germany
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Ian Godfrey Samba Member
Joined: September 25, 2006 Posts: 1137 Location: Melbourne Australia
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Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2021 9:12 pm Post subject: Re: Installing shorter IRS axles |
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I have not seen this gasket setup before, maybe some others have.
the lines around the outer edge seem different on many brands.
I have seen 1 line on GKN/Lobro, no lines on Empi and 3 + 1 lines on older factory? ones
Here's my thinking though, when you torque up the bolts the boot flange is going to crush into the gasket and the loading on the bolt head won't be even.
I could imagine (even with schnorr washers) the cv bolts coming loose = trouble
the other way around would put the recess on the flange side (outer) and the bolt heads have a solid flat surface to torque up too.
I'd love to hear if anyone has used this design of CV and their experiences? |
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Busstom Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2014 Posts: 3844 Location: San Jose, CA
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Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2021 9:42 pm Post subject: Re: Installing shorter IRS axles |
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I always thought the groove around the O.D. of the outer race always went toward the flanges. |
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halbug Samba Member
Joined: March 09, 2006 Posts: 455 Location: Germany
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jsturtlebuggy Samba Member
Joined: August 24, 2005 Posts: 4496 Location: Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
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Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2021 10:35 am Post subject: Re: Installing shorter IRS axles |
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That is the first CV joint I seen using a gasket like that on a VW.
Porsche 914 4 cylinder cars use a gasket around the outer perimeter on flange side. It also used only 4 bolts and 2dowel pins to mount to flange.
If you going to use that CV I would put gasket side towards flange. _________________ Joseph
Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
Elrod Motorsports
Motion Tire Motorsports
Having fun with Dune Buggies since 1970
Into Volkswagens since 1960 |
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halbug Samba Member
Joined: March 09, 2006 Posts: 455 Location: Germany
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jsturtlebuggy Samba Member
Joined: August 24, 2005 Posts: 4496 Location: Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
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Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2021 1:58 pm Post subject: Re: Installing shorter IRS axles |
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I have to wonder what other vehicles use a 100mm outside diameter CV other then what VW has made.
Most of my experience is with Lobro brand and some GNK brand CVs.
On my own buggies I am using Empi 930 CV joints that are made in China and they hold up well in off and on road use. _________________ Joseph
Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
Elrod Motorsports
Motion Tire Motorsports
Having fun with Dune Buggies since 1970
Into Volkswagens since 1960 |
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