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ProspectiveOwnergon Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2020 Posts: 211 Location: SoCal
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Posted: Tue May 25, 2021 2:06 pm Post subject: Re: One more auxiliary battery installation 85 Westy |
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Yeah...I bought 8 AWG for the run from starter to Renogy so I have to likely follow this existing wire from the battery box across. Because they don't make 45amp breakers I had to go with 50 in, 40 out....don't think that's too risky for the bisky as I'm going 8awg. Only other option is to drop to 40amp in AND out.
Side question...should the fuse be closest to the ending of the wire or the beginning? |
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Vanuber Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2020 Posts: 411 Location: Virginia
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Posted: Wed May 26, 2021 6:46 am Post subject: Re: One more auxiliary battery installation 85 Westy |
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ProspectiveOwnergon wrote: |
Side question...should the fuse be closest to the ending of the wire or the beginning? |
Fuses should be as close as possible to the power source. This doesn't always work out of course, but that's the idea. The fuse or breaker is protecting the wiring from overloading, melting, and possible fire. So if you are blowing fuses or breakers, there is something wrong that needs to be corrected.
Side note - you might think about using a breaker as both circuit protection and a cut-off switch. I have a Blue Sea 187 breaker on my DC|DC charger and it's really nice to have it turned off when I don't need to be charging the house battery from the alternator (driving around town, etc.). It's actually turned off a lot more than turned on. _________________ '85 Westfalia 1.9L
'72 BMW R75/5
'71 BMW R75/5
'02 Subaru Forester 2.5L |
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Vanuber Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2020 Posts: 411 Location: Virginia
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ProspectiveOwnergon Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2020 Posts: 211 Location: SoCal
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Posted: Wed May 26, 2021 10:13 am Post subject: Re: One more auxiliary battery installation 85 Westy |
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Vanuber wrote: |
ProspectiveOwnergon wrote: |
Side question...should the fuse be closest to the ending of the wire or the beginning? |
Side note - you might think about using a breaker as both circuit protection and a cut-off switch. I have a Blue Sea 187 breaker on my DC|DC charger and it's really nice to have it turned off when I don't need to be charging the house battery from the alternator (driving around town, etc.). It's actually turned off a lot more than turned on. |
These are the fuses that I got that have the switch on them...BlueSea seem like a more robust solution because they are IP66 certified.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07RKV35HY?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2_dt_b_product_details |
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Alaskaberrys Samba Member
Joined: June 19, 2016 Posts: 1001 Location: SE Alaska
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Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:42 am Post subject: Re: One more auxiliary battery installation 85 Westy |
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Great write up, thank you! Our westy is stripped currently for repaint and being an electrical novice your detailed and informative post helps a lot.
Beautiful workmanship also, perfect mix of stock look with modern upgrades.
Note - I found this thread via your house power wiring thread (also very informative) and noticed that the wiring diagram at the beginning of this post is now different, correct? _________________ '91 Westfalia, Bordeaux Red Pearl 2.1L 2wd Auto
'91 T3 Syncro Doka, Escorial Green 1.9L TD AAZ Gremian (to provoke, irritate, exasperate, vex...) |
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Vanuber Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2020 Posts: 411 Location: Virginia
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Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 10:34 am Post subject: Re: One more auxiliary battery installation 85 Westy |
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Alaskaberrys wrote: |
Great write up, thank you! Our westy is stripped currently for repaint and being an electrical novice your detailed and informative post helps a lot.
Beautiful workmanship also, perfect mix of stock look with modern upgrades.
Note - I found this thread via your house power wiring thread (also very informative) and noticed that the wiring diagram at the beginning of this post is now different, correct? |
Glad you found it helpful! Yes, the wiring diagram did change a bit around the shore charging, added a breaker for the DC|DC charger, Blue Sea switch panel, etc. I added the final wiring diagram to the other thread. _________________ '85 Westfalia 1.9L
'72 BMW R75/5
'71 BMW R75/5
'02 Subaru Forester 2.5L |
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kevinm Samba Member
Joined: September 08, 2008 Posts: 117 Location: Minneapolis, MN
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Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2021 7:30 am Post subject: Re: One more auxiliary battery installation 85 Westy |
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Vanuber, thanks for all this detail, and for your help with the dimensions on that panel.
I'm trying to do something similar but less ambitious and am wondering about how you calculated the amperage of the MRBF fuse at the battery terminal. Your diagram shows a 250 Ah fuse, and it looks as if you have a 100 Ah battery Even so, I think that batteries can surge above their normal rating for a bit. Did you base the fuse Ah on the battery's max surge amperage and then increase it a bit?
- Kevin |
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Vanuber Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2020 Posts: 411 Location: Virginia
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Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2021 7:36 am Post subject: Re: One more auxiliary battery installation 85 Westy |
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kevinm wrote: |
Vanuber, thanks for all this detail, and for your help with the dimensions on that panel.
I'm trying to do something similar but less ambitious and am wondering about how you calculated the amperage of the MRBF fuse at the battery terminal. Your diagram shows a 250 Ah fuse, and it looks as if you have a 100 Ah battery Even so, I think that batteries can surge above their normal rating for a bit. Did you base the fuse Ah on the battery's max surge amperage and then increase it a bit?
- Kevin |
Exactly right! The surge is 200A on the Battleborn. So going a bit above that just in case of catastrophic failure. _________________ '85 Westfalia 1.9L
'72 BMW R75/5
'71 BMW R75/5
'02 Subaru Forester 2.5L |
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fxr Samba Member
Joined: December 07, 2014 Posts: 2325 Location: Bay area CA
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Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2021 9:08 am Post subject: Re: One more auxiliary battery installation 85 Westy |
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kevinm wrote: |
Vanuber, thanks for all this detail, and for your help with the dimensions on that panel.
I'm trying to do something similar but less ambitious and am wondering about how you calculated the amperage of the MRBF fuse at the battery terminal. Your diagram shows a 250 Ah fuse, and it looks as if you have a 100 Ah battery Even so, I think that batteries can surge above their normal rating for a bit. Did you base the fuse Ah on the battery's max surge amperage and then increase it a bit?
- Kevin |
You are muddling Amp-hours with Amps.
A battery might be rated at 100Ah, but have a maximum current output of over 1000A. LFP batteries tend to have 'limiters' in their management systems that will limit this - as in the above example, to 200A. _________________ Jim Crowther
1984 1.9l EJ22 Westy Wolfsburg Edition
Vespa GTS 300 |
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pnwkayaker Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2008 Posts: 920 Location: Sammamish, WA
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Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2022 8:25 am Post subject: Re: One more auxiliary battery installation 85 Westy |
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Hello Vanuber,
I'm re-designing my aux battery system, and I plan to borrow several of the ideas from your aux battery system thread (I will reuse my Redarc unit so it won't be an exact clone). I have 2 questions if you don't mind:
1 - I liked the way you used the SafetyHub to route all the charging elements (DC-DC charger, AC-DC charger, MPPT) to the battery through the SafetyHub (way more cleaner than tying them all to the battery terminal post). Do you have any updates/changes on how you connected them?
2 - I truly liked for documentation and planning purposes how you draw the whole circuit (including pics of the components), what program did you use? _________________ 87 Syncro Westy EJ25 ("Tardis")
Seattle Meetup at Marymoor (link)
A collection of Simple Useful Mods (SUM) (link) |
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Vanuber Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2020 Posts: 411 Location: Virginia
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Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2022 8:55 am Post subject: Re: One more auxiliary battery installation 85 Westy |
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pnwkayaker wrote: |
1 - I liked the way you used the SafetyHub to route all the charging elements (DC-DC charger, AC-DC charger, MPPT) to the battery through the SafetyHub (way more cleaner than tying them all to the battery terminal post). Do you have any updates/changes on how you connected them?
2 - I truly liked for documentation and planning purposes how you draw the whole circuit (including pics of the components), what program did you use? |
I am still running everything as shown in the wiring diagram. If looking at the image below, the larger loads on the MIDI fuses include the accessory switch panel, the DC|DC charger, the AC|DC charger, and MPPT controller. The ATO fused circuits include the rear LED's, the fridge vent plate charger, and the small ST blade panel under the sink.
The SafetyHub setup is pretty awesome with the IP22 shore power. The battery can be removed from the system (as it is now for winter storage) but everything still runs of the IP22 as it is a power source and a charger.
The wiring diagram was done in Adobe Illustrator.
Good luck on your build!
_________________ '85 Westfalia 1.9L
'72 BMW R75/5
'71 BMW R75/5
'02 Subaru Forester 2.5L |
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pnwkayaker Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2008 Posts: 920 Location: Sammamish, WA
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Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2022 11:23 am Post subject: Re: One more auxiliary battery installation 85 Westy |
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Thanks for the info! One more question, I see that you put the cutoff switch on the negative terminal of the battery, but I've seen folks putting a circuit breaker on the positive terminal instead:
1 - is there a pro/con of disconnecting positive vs negative terminal?
2 - does the choice of the disconnection mechanism (manual switch vs circuit breaker) dictate which cable to add the cutoff? _________________ 87 Syncro Westy EJ25 ("Tardis")
Seattle Meetup at Marymoor (link)
A collection of Simple Useful Mods (SUM) (link) |
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Vanuber Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2020 Posts: 411 Location: Virginia
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Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2022 11:51 am Post subject: Re: One more auxiliary battery installation 85 Westy |
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pnwkayaker wrote: |
Thanks for the info! One more question, I see that you put the cutoff switch on the negative terminal of the battery, but I've seen folks putting a circuit breaker on the positive terminal instead:
1 - is there a pro/con of disconnecting positive vs negative terminal?
2 - does the choice of the disconnection mechanism (manual switch vs circuit breaker) dictate which cable to add the cutoff? |
1 - There are some other discussions on Samba about the negative v/s positive cutoff if you search for them. But I think the consensus is to put the cut off on the negative terminal. The thinking is not to extend the unfused positive leads in the case of a short.
2 - No, it doesn't matter in theory as you are breaking the circuit either way. Think of the circuit as a continuous loop.
A high-amp fuse at the positive battery terminal is another failsafe against catastrophic shorts. The Battleborn BMS has a surge protector (1/2 sec for loads over 200A) but I also have a 250A MRBF fuse between the battery and SafetyHub. Seems like a reasonable protection for the cost and size. _________________ '85 Westfalia 1.9L
'72 BMW R75/5
'71 BMW R75/5
'02 Subaru Forester 2.5L |
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pnwkayaker Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2008 Posts: 920 Location: Sammamish, WA
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Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2022 9:39 pm Post subject: Re: One more auxiliary battery installation 85 Westy |
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Perfect, thanks!
Vanuber wrote: |
1 - There are some other discussions on Samba about the negative v/s positive cutoff if you search for them. But I think the consensus is to put the cut off on the negative terminal. The thinking is not to extend the unfused positive leads in the case of a short.
2 - No, it doesn't matter in theory as you are breaking the circuit either way. Think of the circuit as a continuous loop.
A high-amp fuse at the positive battery terminal is another failsafe against catastrophic shorts. The Battleborn BMS has a surge protector (1/2 sec for loads over 200A) but I also have a 250A MRBF fuse between the battery and SafetyHub. Seems like a reasonable protection for the cost and size. |
_________________ 87 Syncro Westy EJ25 ("Tardis")
Seattle Meetup at Marymoor (link)
A collection of Simple Useful Mods (SUM) (link) |
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ethyl_on_the_road Samba Member
Joined: July 03, 2021 Posts: 2 Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2022 3:17 pm Post subject: Re: One more auxiliary battery installation 85 Westy |
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Hey Vanuber, super nice setup. Thanks for the in detail descriptions and documentation. I am wondering: can you still access the space behind the drivers seat with this setup or is the control panel blocking it permanently while in place? Thank you! |
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Vanuber Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2020 Posts: 411 Location: Virginia
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Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2022 3:56 pm Post subject: Re: One more auxiliary battery installation 85 Westy |
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ethyl_on_the_road wrote: |
Hey Vanuber, super nice setup. Thanks for the in detail descriptions and documentation. I am wondering: can you still access the space behind the drivers seat with this setup or is the control panel blocking it permanently while in place? Thank you! |
Hey Ethyl,
Not sure what space you are talking about... The driver's seat can no longer swivel 90 degrees toward the passenger seat. A bummer, but we never turned this seat anyway. The driver's side battery compartment is still accessible, though limited. There is space left between the control panel and the back of the seat to stow things and the seat can still slide all the way back. _________________ '85 Westfalia 1.9L
'72 BMW R75/5
'71 BMW R75/5
'02 Subaru Forester 2.5L |
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ethyl_on_the_road Samba Member
Joined: July 03, 2021 Posts: 2 Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2022 12:20 pm Post subject: Re: One more auxiliary battery installation 85 Westy |
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Thank you. I was talking about the battery compartment. |
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openroad65 Samba Member
Joined: March 27, 2022 Posts: 19 Location: Toronto, Canada
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Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2022 5:45 pm Post subject: Re: One more auxiliary battery installation 85 Westy |
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Vanuber - great work as many have said. It's an impressive setup and an illustration of thoughtful and detailed craftsmanship in getting it put together.
I've been looking your desgn too long thinking about the safetyhub. If I'm right the only reason for using it is to keep less wires going to the positive of your battery. The solar, dc/dc and ac/dc units can all go to your aux battery postive terminal directly - no?. The problem is if you did, you'd simply have too much going to that terminal and the safetyhub keeps it clean and organized. Is that the idea? And I guess the other benefit is that you'd have each power source fused properly within that hub making it cleaner on that point as well.
If yes, then looking at the other side (from the saftetyhub to power consumers in the van), in theory you could simply buy a 12v fuse block. You'd not have the switches to turn off the fridge etc as you have, but otherwise it would function the same way. Correct? All the devices would trickle draw so you couldn't turn them off while the van was in use but otherwise could turn the whole van aux system ''off' at the aux battery shut off. Is that right too?
I've already bought most of the components but am just trying to understand how i could simplify the use of the safetyhub and a fuse block. I don't think I'll be adding a trickle charger to the setup nor porpex. But otherwise my system should be very similar.
My last thought is why did you opt for the CO2 detector you did vs a traditional house detector. Simply to not worry about replacing batteries every year?
Thanks in advance for your time. And again, very impressive. |
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Vanuber Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2020 Posts: 411 Location: Virginia
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Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2022 6:29 am Post subject: Re: One more auxiliary battery installation 85 Westy |
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openroad65 wrote: |
I've been looking your desgn too long thinking about the safetyhub. If I'm right the only reason for using it is to keep less wires going to the positive of your battery. The solar, dc/dc and ac/dc units can all go to your aux battery postive terminal directly - no?. The problem is if you did, you'd simply have too much going to that terminal and the safetyhub keeps it clean and organized. Is that the idea? And I guess the other benefit is that you'd have each power source fused properly within that hub making it cleaner on that point as well. |
Exactly right. They are all just connecting to the battery positive terminal, but the Safety Hub allows for properly fused connections and clean cable routing.
openroad65 wrote: |
If yes, then looking at the other side (from the saftetyhub to power consumers in the van), in theory you could simply buy a 12v fuse block. You'd not have the switches to turn off the fridge etc as you have, but otherwise it would function the same way. Correct? All the devices would trickle draw so you couldn't turn them off while the van was in use but otherwise could turn the whole van aux system ''off' at the aux battery shut off. Is that right too? |
Yes, that would work too. The Blue Sea switch panel functions like a fuse block but uses breakers instead - each switch has a 15A breaker built in - allowing for on/off function.
openroad65 wrote: |
I've already bought most of the components but am just trying to understand how i could simplify the use of the safetyhub and a fuse block. I don't think I'll be adding a trickle charger to the setup nor porpex. But otherwise my system should be very similar.
My last thought is why did you opt for the CO2 detector you did vs a traditional house detector. Simply to not worry about replacing batteries every year? |
Yes, I wanted a hardwired CO/LP detector so I would not have to worry about batteries. These have to replaced every 5-7 years, FYI.
Thanks for your comments. Sounds like you are on the right path. Your choice of components really depends on the amp loads from your accessories. Typical fuse blocks like the Blue Sea ST Blade use ATO type fuses that rate up to 30A. For anything more than that, you need to use AMI fuses that handle 30-200A. The Safety Hub allows use of both fuse types in a relatively compact unit. If your loads require fuses 30A or less, then you can get away with a ATO-type fuse block only, saving some space (or inline fuses).
A rule of thumb on fuse selection is 1.5 x the load. So if you have a draw or input more than 20A, you will need to use AMI fuses (i.e. a 30A shore charger or DC|DC charger). You will also find, if you haven't already, that all of the wiring, fuses, switches, etc. take a lot of space, so plan accordingly.
This is a great resource for sizing your wiring - http://assets.bluesea.com/files/resources/newsletter/images/DC_wire_selection_chartlg.jpg
Good luck on your project! _________________ '85 Westfalia 1.9L
'72 BMW R75/5
'71 BMW R75/5
'02 Subaru Forester 2.5L |
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openroad65 Samba Member
Joined: March 27, 2022 Posts: 19 Location: Toronto, Canada
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Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2022 5:50 pm Post subject: Re: One more auxiliary battery installation 85 Westy |
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Thanks for the feedback. I'll probably come back to you with a few more questions as I get closer to assembly. Much appreciated. |
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