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evanfrucht
Samba Member
Joined: July 24, 2016
Posts: 2180
Location: Laurel Canyon, CA
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 Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 11:16 am Post subject: Re: First Posts - Next Steps on '63ish beetle |
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| taconachoqueso wrote: |
...It sounds like hp and complexity go together which I guess makes sense.
...Maybe it just boils down to what's the best choice for a first build... If I build something, learn some things and then blow it up at the track next year I would not be thrilled, but I know that might be part of this experience.
Thanks again! |
Sounds like you have a good attitude! The 2180cc was good place to start for me as a first build and I have no regrets. Everyone has their own learning curve, so YOU need to decide what sounds good to you. For me it sort of evolved. At the beginning I had no idea how big to go or what to do. I thought long and hard and decided that I wanted a challenge. I was already going to put a lot of work and money, so I felt putting in a little bit more of both was worth it to accomplish what I really wanted with zero regrets. My goal became to build the biggest most powerful street engine possible that would also excel in reliability and longevity. I also had a certain period correct "style" I wanted for the build. Could I have failed yes? But others have also attempted to rebuild a stock engine and either botched it or couldn't finish, so it's really hard to say.
My point was HP doesn't necessarily equal complexity. The 2276/2180 has been built enough times already it's basically a formula...
Most of the complexity from high HP builds really comes from the F/I, turbos, special interest type builds with very fancy and involved tuning ignition systems, etc. Either that and/or people are experimenting trying to push the limits and going beyond what has already been done before.
For a simple N/A 2180, 2276, even 2332 (doesn't really matter the size) your biggest challenge will be deciding what combo of heads, cam, carbs, and what shims to use for the cylinder base, calculating deck height and CR, etc. You basically need to make an educated decision on the parts combo, and then be able to tune the thing when you are done. At times certain parts may need modification or correction for proper fitment and function. You also need to measure parts and clearances precisely... but that is necessary on a stock build anyway. Lastly, you need to be able to recognize the smart ones on here and listen to them  Lots of good info on the samba, some... not so good. Take it for what it's worth.
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1967 Bug ( the daily rod )
1964 Fury Wagon ( the pavement shredder ) |
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challomoner
Samba Member
Joined: October 13, 2010
Posts: 1211
Location: IRELAND
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| Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 1:08 pm Post subject: Re: First Posts - Next Steps on '63ish beetle |
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| I agree with the post above, if you wanna build an engine then build the one you want, not a practice run on something that isn't what you really want. I'd consider that a waste of time, money and effort. Just my opinion. |
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Zundfolge1432 
Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2004
Posts: 12466
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| Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 3:07 pm Post subject: Re: First Posts - Next Steps on '63ish beetle |
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 I love this place |
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taconachoqueso
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2021
Posts: 89
Location: CO
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 6:11 am Post subject: Re: First Posts - Next Steps on '63ish beetle |
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Still doing some research and I did order the bugme videos so thanks for that tip. While still thinking about this I am going to take Rome's advice and make my apron removable. Doing some reading and whatnot, that sounds like a great mod. So I guess this is step 1.
Again thanks for ALL the input.
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Dauz
Samba Member
Joined: January 05, 2010
Posts: 1790
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 6:46 am Post subject: Re: First Posts - Next Steps on '63ish beetle |
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| I wouldn’t hack that apron up. Look at the condition of the vehicle. |
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evanfrucht
Samba Member
Joined: July 24, 2016
Posts: 2180
Location: Laurel Canyon, CA
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 7:01 am Post subject: Re: First Posts - Next Steps on '63ish beetle |
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| Dauz wrote: |
| I wouldn’t hack that apron up. Look at the condition of the vehicle. |
X2
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1967 Bug ( the daily rod )
1964 Fury Wagon ( the pavement shredder ) |
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Zundfolge1432
Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2004
Posts: 12466
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 7:23 am Post subject: Re: First Posts - Next Steps on '63ish beetle |
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| evanfrucht wrote: |
| Dauz wrote: |
| I wouldn’t hack that apron up. Look at the condition of the vehicle. |
X2 |
X3
But this is par for the course here😀 |
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taconachoqueso
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2021
Posts: 89
Location: CO
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 7:53 am Post subject: Re: First Posts - Next Steps on '63ish beetle |
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I thought this was the performance thread
I understand, but this isn't a restoration. The body is in great shape but it sits on a 63 chassis. This will never be a show piece. It looks great, but I'm just not a restorer. There are enough bug restorations already. I see people pump gobs of money into restoring cars to make them numbers matching, etc. That's cool 100%, but not my thing. Burnouts and wheelies and needing earplugs is really where I'm at.
I'm sure these forums are packed with that debate, but this is purely a performance project for me. I want to make this fast and drive the crap out of it. Some day this car will do wheelies, God willing. |
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Dauz
Samba Member
Joined: January 05, 2010
Posts: 1790
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 8:19 am Post subject: Re: First Posts - Next Steps on '63ish beetle |
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| taconachoqueso wrote: |
I thought this was the performance thread
I understand, but this isn't a restoration. The body is in great shape but it sits on a 63 chassis. This will never be a show piece. It looks great, but I'm just not a restorer. There are enough bug restorations already. I see people pump gobs of money into restoring cars to make them numbers matching, etc. That's cool 100%, but not my thing. Burnouts and wheelies and needing earplugs is really where I'm at.
I'm sure these forums are packed with that debate, but this is purely a performance project for me. I want to make this fast and drive the crap out of it. Some day this car will do wheelies, God willing. |
You could have a 220hp normal aspirated motor in that vehicle without tearing into the body and/or frame. Power to weight ratio, 220hp is equivalent to 700-800hp (ish) hot rod chevy. If you really want to drive the hell out of it, I'd place adequate focus on the handling and suspension. |
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evanfrucht
Samba Member
Joined: July 24, 2016
Posts: 2180
Location: Laurel Canyon, CA
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:04 am Post subject: Re: First Posts - Next Steps on '63ish beetle |
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I got my engine in easily without cutting up the rear clip. Not very difficult with a second set of hands. Different chassis or not, '58 is a good year and the body and paint looks to be good... so I'd leave it.
If you are set on cutting it, feel free, it's your car. BUT, If you do it make sure you do it such a way that it is completley invisible when the fenders and decklid are on. I see so many people just dive in and completley butcher the job and it ends up looking terrible.
I truly do not reccomend anyone does this but I made the following drawing to show what seems to be so hard to understand for many.
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1967 Bug ( the daily rod )
1964 Fury Wagon ( the pavement shredder )
Last edited by evanfrucht on Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:44 am; edited 3 times in total |
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taconachoqueso
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2021
Posts: 89
Location: CO
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:07 am Post subject: Re: First Posts - Next Steps on '63ish beetle |
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| I'm here for advice. Thanks for the input. |
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taconachoqueso
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2021
Posts: 89
Location: CO
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:11 am Post subject: Re: First Posts - Next Steps on '63ish beetle |
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I was just looking at Dauz pics. If the man says you don't need to cut the apron I guess I can't argue.
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taconachoqueso
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2021
Posts: 89
Location: CO
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| Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2021 9:28 am Post subject: Re: First Posts - Next Steps on '63ish beetle |
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| I am just dropping the engine and wow it is tight. This is a 1500 in a 58 body. The heat risers are right up against the apron, but the input shaft is not past the pressure plate. Any suggestions? Should I just start removing the top of the engine? Thanks. |
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evanfrucht
Samba Member
Joined: July 24, 2016
Posts: 2180
Location: Laurel Canyon, CA
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| Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2021 9:36 am Post subject: Re: First Posts - Next Steps on '63ish beetle |
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| taconachoqueso wrote: |
| I am just dropping the engine and wow it is tight. This is a 1500 in a 58 body. The heat risers are right up against the apron, but the input shaft is not past the pressure plate. Any suggestions? Should I just start removing the top of the engine? Thanks. |
Ya pull that off, plus anything else that might make it easier. To install my engine I remove the muffler to make my life super easy. Either way it's a bit of a shimmy shimmy type deal.
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1967 Bug ( the daily rod )
1964 Fury Wagon ( the pavement shredder ) |
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Rome
Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2004
Posts: 9638
Location: Pearl River, NY
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| Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2021 11:41 am Post subject: Re: First Posts - Next Steps on '63ish beetle |
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| Quote: |
| I am just dropping the engine and wow it is tight. This is a 1500 in a 58 body. The heat risers are right up against the apron, but the input shaft is not past the pressure plate. |
This is exactly why I recommend going to a later apron if you want to fit a later engine than a 36 hp. You don't need to "hack" your original H apron; but cutting it out cleanly and then installing a 40 hp -era one will make it immensely easier to install later engines. The H apron comes up higher so that your front to rear distance is reduced compared to a later, lower apron. If you like the look of your H apron, and I agree it is in excellent shape, then research here how others have made it removable. This way, with the apron off, you slide the engine in and out straight with the car on the ground.
When I had a '56 Beetle which came with a 1300 cc engine installed and I tried to remove it, I was also frustrated compared to removing the one out of my '64 Ghia. On my '56 I don't think I needed to remove the generator or fan shroud, but I did remove the muffler. Generator pulley IIRC also removed. This was in the late 1980's so I just don't fully remember.
Did your 1500 have heater boxes or simply "J-pipes"? If HB, you won't be able to pull the engine rearward enough. The top of the HB won't clear the front side of the engine firewall's bottom edge. You'll have to remove the HB first. Not easy; hardest fastener to access is the upper nut on the right side head. When VW started with the fresh air heating system and its taller heater boxes in ~ 1963, it reshaped the bottom edge of the engine firewall so that the outer curves came up higher. Might only have been an inch compared to the 36 hp/stale air engine heater boxes but it was enough for pulling the engine straight back in the workshops.
Dauz's Beetle with the complicated engine has a later, non-H rear apron. |
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taconachoqueso
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2021
Posts: 89
Location: CO
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| Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2021 12:17 pm Post subject: Re: First Posts - Next Steps on '63ish beetle |
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^ Rome wins.
Yea I have the risers and fan shroud off and might still have an issue in the front. When the dust settlers I will explore a 'nice' apron mod.
Heater Boxes - I had replaced with jpipes a while back.
I am taking lunch but will be back at it later. |
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evanfrucht
Samba Member
Joined: July 24, 2016
Posts: 2180
Location: Laurel Canyon, CA
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| Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2021 12:31 pm Post subject: Re: First Posts - Next Steps on '63ish beetle |
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Ya a different rear apron is not a bad option... AS LONG AS IT IS DONE VERY CLEANLY, NOT HACKED OR BUTCHERED AND THEN WELDED HORRIBLY WITH TOO MUCH SEAM SEALER AND FILLER SMEARED ON.
It will be hard to not mess up the paint past where its visible or where you can get a good clean body line to completely hide what has been done. You'd need a tig to do it with any chance of simply painting only the new clip and trying to blend It. It depends on your standards. IMO that car should get a full repaint if such a mod is done.
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1967 Bug ( the daily rod )
1964 Fury Wagon ( the pavement shredder ) |
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taconachoqueso
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2021
Posts: 89
Location: CO
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| Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2021 1:16 pm Post subject: Re: First Posts - Next Steps on '63ish beetle |
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Success. I did have to remove the cylinder tins. Thanks for the feedback.
I'm learning so I did not know dual port meant 1600. I have been going off the number on the generator tower which indicates a 1969 model 1500? So I think this is a leaky 1600. Also noticed this was converted to 12 volt and the trans housing was shaved very badly, all the way through the bolt holes so the engine was basically on finger tight. Back of flywheel looks dry as does inside of trans so I think the leak is the actual engine case. Not sure I care at this point as I will probably look into the cdb performance kits. Still reading up on options there.
Thanks again.
Last edited by taconachoqueso on Sat Aug 21, 2021 1:53 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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DerrickfromNC1
Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2008
Posts: 1300
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2021 1:18 pm Post subject: Re: First Posts - Next Steps on '63ish beetle |
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Creative Car Craft makes what they call cleanup panels(rear aprons). Since 67 one yr only rear aprons are hard to come by I’m going to attempt to use one as a removable apron.
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taconachoqueso
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2021
Posts: 89
Location: CO
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| Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2021 3:03 pm Post subject: Re: First Posts - Next Steps on '63ish beetle |
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| Just left Painters Grinding in Denver. They will be awesome to work with. I am going to drop my trans off asap and talk more about engines. I had heard this, but they also said cases are in very short supply right now. So thanks for the tip on this place. Awesome to finally find a shop like that. |
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