| Author |
Message |
epowell
Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2015
Posts: 4733
Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
|
 Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2021 8:08 pm Post subject: Re: Hydraulic system restoration -DOCUMENTATION & HELP requested |
 |
|
So..... made good progress today. With my new socket set I was easily able to get the 19mm caliper bolts off.
Next was the pistons without a compressor. I get them most of the way out with pads removed, and just using the pedal. Then I disconnected the fluid lines and removed the calipers. I did manage to get all 4 pistons out, but I am now going to tell you the best way to do it - in hindsight:
Once you have the pistons pushed out a couple of CMs via the pedal with the pads out - then remove the calipers. Then connectthe fluid line back up again, and use various combinations of wood and cleverness to slowly and gently coax all 4 pistons out at an EQUAL PACE. Slowly slowly, try to block the movement of the pistons which are exiting more quickly.... encourage the slow pokes to move out... go slowly and constantly check both sides. The point is that as soon as ONE PISTON fully exits, you lose pedal pressure and the pedal will not help you anymore. So go slowly and carefully and invent clever ways to block the movements of the 'faster exiting' pistons.
If you do this, by the time ONE piston will fully exit the other 3 should be so far out that all it takes is a few careful and gentle taps with a hammer and screw driver and they will all come out.
Be very carefull taping them out. All of my pistons look re-usable actually - but since I have 4 new ones, I was not as careful as I could have been. Also since my first piston exited too soon, the 4th piston really took a lot of tapping to get out, and a couple of times I got careless and slightly damaged the upper edge of the piston - probably I will never use these old pistons again so I doesn't really matter.... but next time I do this I will do it more slowly and carefully.
Next job was to remove the frozen bleeders. I did this by getting a couple of nails which were just slightly slightly larger than the hole in the bleeder, and then I tapped them into the hole to the bottom. Then I cut off the heads of the nails with a hacksaw.
Next I blasted the bleeder repeatedly with a propane torch.... cooled it down with more weasel piss... repeat repeat... then took a slightly smaller then 7mm long socket and hammered it on with a small sledge hammer. Used a ratchet and the bleeders came off 
Now I'm on a roll..... I was sure that 2 years ago I brought with me the rebuild kits for these early Girling calipers - but looking thru my parts stash I realised that what I have is 2 boxes of D4069 54mm Version: ATE-LUCAS FRONT BRAKE CALIPER rebuild kit.
Why did I bring the ATE version when my calipers are Girling. Actually they look exactly the same except the only difference I think is the boots. I wonder if the rebuild kit is the same for both Girling and ATE??? I will check with my parts guy - - - unless anyone here knows that?
Basically the main thing is the square rubber seal... I'd guess that if the boot fits, then this kit would work.
_________________
www.edwardpowell.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22639
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2021 3:51 am Post subject: Re: Hydraulic system restoration -DOCUMENTATION & HELP requested |
|
|
Ed, what does the nail in the bleeder do? Add some stiffness?
Heat is your friend there. I’ve got about a 95% success rate with old bleeders , even on a 5 year Vermont field Volvo
_________________
.ssS! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
epowell
Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2015
Posts: 4733
Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2021 9:09 am Post subject: Re: Hydraulic system restoration -DOCUMENTATION & HELP requested |
|
|
| Abscate wrote: |
Ed, what does the nail in the bleeder do? Add some stiffness?
|
Yeah the heat loosens it for sure PLUS hammering on the undersized socket.
The YouTube clip I watched, which seemed very good, suggested to take a drill bit slightly larger than the bleeder hole and drill a hole into the bleeder then remove the drill bit from the chuck, turn it around, and tap it into the bleeder hole, then break off the end. To me this seems like a stupid waste of a good drill bit, so I spend a bit more time and effort and rumaged around in the basement to find the perfect sized nail. Just too big enough to still tap in easily but for sure to really grab tightly in there.
This also helps to conduct the heat but primarily having the nail in there allow you to put a LOT more torque on that bleeder when it comes to wrenching it off. Normally as soon as you'd start wrenching on it it would just collapse into itself.
_________________
www.edwardpowell.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
epowell
Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2015
Posts: 4733
Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2021 9:13 am Post subject: Re: Hydraulic system restoration -DOCUMENTATION & HELP requested |
|
|
regarding the ATE caliper rebuild kit for my GIRLING calipers, - 5 years ago I went thru this same thing, and here is the thread from back then:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=678449&highlight=
Bottom line is that 5 years ago my same Czech parts guy gave me this same rebuild kit - I guess his system has it listed that the ATE kit works for both ATE and GIRLING.... so it does work perfectly.
Now I'm off this to rebuild my calipers. Sunny and should be 25*C today, maybe the last hot day of the summer - so I'm going outside to work on the van
_________________
www.edwardpowell.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Steve M.
Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2013
Posts: 6829
Location: Fort Lauderdale, Fl.
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2021 9:59 am Post subject: Re: Hydraulic system restoration -DOCUMENTATION & HELP requested |
|
|
One thing you can also try with the heat is a freezing spray
aThe heat should be applied only to the caliper housing being aluminum it should expand quickly and if you can fit the spray tube inside the bleeder port and give it a squirt it might chill it fast enough to break that rust bound. The problem is the aluminum caliper and the stell bleeder valve absorb and loose heat at different rates.
The oversize deep socket and the tapping with a small 10 ounze hammer fast like a woodpecker as you did also helps break that molecular bound the rust creates.
_________________
This free advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.
There are seven days in a week. Someday is not one of them. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
epowell
Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2015
Posts: 4733
Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2021 10:12 am Post subject: Re: Hydraulic system restoration -DOCUMENTATION & HELP requested |
|
|
Yeah the guy in the video used this Freeze Spray and also some special hammer-on impact sockets.
_________________
www.edwardpowell.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dobryan
Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006
Posts: 16501
Location: Brookeville, MD
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
epowell
Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2015
Posts: 4733
Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2021 10:44 pm Post subject: Re: Hydraulic system restoration -DOCUMENTATION & HELP requested |
|
|
| dobryan wrote: |
Great job Ed! I am impressed with your ingenuity.  |
Thanks... It's lots of fun when things go smoothly.
Today I rebuilt the calipers and also reinstalled them in the dark. [total addiction!]
The hard part was properly cleaning out the bores. After that it's a piece of cake.
My rotors are down slightly below spec at 10.5mm... I'll have to change them relatively soon depending on how much I drive. Also the pads are down to 5 or 6mm which is still quite a bit, but with thin rotors and thin pads, the pistons have to travel pretty far....
Got new bleeders on. The tiny little u-shaped brake line from caliper to rubber line: one is perfect - the other has some surface rust. I was going to replace it but at the last minute decided to sand off the rust by hand and see how bad it really it. Finally it seems still pretty good - and knowing what a headache making new ones is - I decided to just keep 'em. I gently sanded off the rust, put some rust converter on it, then painted them with epoxy primer.
Replaced the rubber lines, filled up the RES., then pumped the pedal and watched the pistons close in on the pads.... took quite a few pumps since the piston travel in now far and all that space needs to fill up with fluid... I also didn't want to press the pedal all the way to the floor at this point. I heard that there might be some risk to the MC when pressing to the floor with a lot of air in the system still - or something like that - I don't really understand, but better to be safe than sorry......
_________________
www.edwardpowell.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dobryan
Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006
Posts: 16501
Location: Brookeville, MD
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2021 6:14 am Post subject: Re: Hydraulic system restoration -DOCUMENTATION & HELP requested |
|
|
Two thumbs up.
My understanding of not pushing the brake pedal all the way to the floor when bleeding brakes is that it pushes the brake master cylinder piston to an area that it does not go to in normal use. That area may have some corrosion on the bore because it is not regularly used and now the seals have swept across that rough area and damaged themselves. Not an issue with a new master cylinder but could be the case with a 30 year old one.....
_________________
Dave O
'87 Westy w/ 2002 Subaru EJ25 and Peloquin TBD
"To travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive." Robert Louis Stevenson
MD>Canada>AK>WA>OR>CA>AZ>UT>WY>SD
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620646
Building a bus for travel in Europe (euroBus)
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=695371
The Western Syncro build
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746794 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
epowell
Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2015
Posts: 4733
Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2021 10:26 am Post subject: Re: Hydraulic system restoration -DOCUMENTATION & HELP requested |
|
|
| dobryan wrote: |
Two thumbs up.
My understanding of not pushing the brake pedal all the way to the floor when bleeding brakes is that it pushes the brake master cylinder piston to an area that it does not go to in normal use. That area may have some corrosion on the bore because it is not regularly used and now the seals have swept across that rough area and damaged themselves. Not an issue with a new master cylinder but could be the case with a 30 year old one..... |
Aha.... yes I recall CRAZYMAN recently explaining this to me - and that certainly explain the MC failure I had on GEorge a few years back... Great to know these tips.
My only concern now is that those pistons were not really difficult to push back in only by hand. The last 1cm or so took some major strength.... but the beginning was pretty easy. Now, with the thin rotors and pads the pistons have to extend out quite a lot to grab... I just wonder how that little rubber square seal is able to hold back all of the brake fluid from gushing out under massive pedal pressure. I think my bores might be worn slightly thin.... ???
_________________
www.edwardpowell.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dobryan
Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006
Posts: 16501
Location: Brookeville, MD
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
epowell
Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2015
Posts: 4733
Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2021 11:20 am Post subject: Re: Hydraulic system restoration -DOCUMENTATION & HELP requested |
|
|
| dobryan wrote: |
| You'll find out when you try it. I would not sweat it for now unless the pistons were wobbly going in. If they went in smooth I'd give it a go. |
Yeah I already brought them up to pressure and working fine.... so.... these thiings are so forgiving!
_________________
www.edwardpowell.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Alan Brase
Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2004
Posts: 4532
Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2021 12:57 am Post subject: Re: Hydraulic system restoration -DOCUMENTATION & HELP requested |
|
|
Ed:
It appears that you did not put in the shims? That go between the pistons and pads. The are cut away under half the contact surface to apply UNEVEN pressure to the pads which I think reduces squealing
It it really simple to add them but the tang fits inside the piston hollow so you need a bit of clearance.
Thank you SlowLane for the gallery picture. Silly me looked at Google first. Next time I go right to where my fellow Sambanistas post!
_________________
Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
epowell
Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2015
Posts: 4733
Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2021 9:07 am Post subject: Re: Hydraulic system restoration -DOCUMENTATION & HELP requested |
|
|
| Alan Brase wrote: |
Ed:
It appears that you did not put in the shims? That go between the pistons and pads. The are cut away under half the contact surface to apply UNEVEN pressure to the pads which I think reduces squealing
It it really simple to add them but the tang fits inside the piston hollow so you need a bit of clearance.
Thank you SlowLane for the gallery picture. Silly me looked at Google first. Next time I go right to where my fellow Sambanistas post! |
Thanks Alan for pointing this out.
Yes as I was installing the pads I thought I was missing something.... the thing is that they were not there when I removed the pads. I have only driven this van for about 2 hours just after I bought it, and the brakes worked fine without any squealing > so I wonder if these shims are really critical?
Does anyone know if a set of new pads includes these shims? ....because the pads themselves are getting a bit thin so I'll likely just replace the pads quite soon.
Thanks again Alan...
_________________
www.edwardpowell.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Alan Brase
Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2004
Posts: 4532
Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2021 11:07 am Post subject: Re: Hydraulic system restoration -DOCUMENTATION & HELP requested |
|
|
My recollection is the the anti squeal shims are a bodge. But a bodge brought by ATE. So if Teves made them they should be pretty good stuff. Also pretty sure The A. TEves installaion instruction shows them with proper orientation. Seems them must be .020-25" thick, so, that would be good to push your piston inward a little as well.
_________________
Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
epowell
Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2015
Posts: 4733
Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2021 11:36 am Post subject: Re: Hydraulic system restoration -DOCUMENTATION & HELP requested |
|
|
| Alan Brase wrote: |
| Seems them must be .020-25" thick, so, that would be good to push your piston inward a little as well. |
Yeah that is a good point... any kind of shim would be good also for getting the pistons to be less extended. Obvious, new rotors would be the better solution since they are in fact .5mm under spec... I'd say the pads have a couple of years life left in them.
_________________
www.edwardpowell.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
epowell
Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2015
Posts: 4733
Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 30, 2021 11:30 am Post subject: Re: Hydraulic system restoration -DOCUMENTATION & HELP requested |
|
|
Hi Friends
Probably a silly question but I just wanted to be double sure I am getting the right stuff.
Is THIS the right stuff I need as brake line material...? It seems really cheap.
COPPER- NICKEL alloy is the same as CUNIFER.... should be OK, no?
Thanks
https://www.amazon.ca/ZHIHU-Copper-Nickel-Complete...&psc=1
_________________
www.edwardpowell.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Alan Brase
Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2004
Posts: 4532
Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 30, 2021 12:45 pm Post subject: Re: Hydraulic system restoration -DOCUMENTATION & HELP requested |
|
|
| epowell wrote: |
Hi Friends
Probably a silly question but I just wanted to be double sure I am getting the right stuff.
Is THIS the right stuff I need as brake line material...? It seems really cheap.
COPPER- NICKEL alloy is the same as CUNIFER.... should be OK, no?
Thanks
https://www.amazon.ca/ZHIHU-Copper-Nickel-Complete...&psc=1 |
Yes, and no. The 3/16 tubing is fine, but all your fittings need to be metric thread.
The listed kit has some bigger thread fittings, I think to do replacement lines to US cars with ABS, as the nut going into the ABS pump has 3/16 line but bigger outside threads.
I live in the rust belt and virtually very old car I ever had (over 80) has needed some lines replaced. I bought my first double flaring tool in 1968 (a Weatherhead brand.) If you have access to a powered tool it is so much quicker. You will need the metric bubble flare tool in your case of lines on a T3.
Incidentally, I recently bought a WHOLE kit of precut and flared lines for my 1980 Westy. from Van Cafe.
I have not even opened the box, but maybe I will today and report back!
_________________
Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
crazyvwvanman
Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2008
Posts: 9923
Location: Orbiting San Diego
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 30, 2021 2:34 pm Post subject: Re: Hydraulic system restoration -DOCUMENTATION & HELP requested |
|
|
Read the bad reviews for that listing!
Find better stuff, hopefully with metric 10x1 fittings.
Mark
| epowell wrote: |
Hi Friends
Probably a silly question but I just wanted to be double sure I am getting the right stuff.
Is THIS the right stuff I need as brake line material...? It seems really cheap.
COPPER- NICKEL alloy is the same as CUNIFER.... should be OK, no?
Thanks
https://www.amazon.ca/ZHIHU-Copper-Nickel-Complete...&psc=1 |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
epowell
Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2015
Posts: 4733
Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 30, 2021 3:04 pm Post subject: Re: Hydraulic system restoration -DOCUMENTATION & HELP requested |
|
|
| Alan Brase wrote: |
Yes, and no. The 3/16 tubing is fine, but all your fittings need to be metric thread.
The listed kit has some bigger thread fittings, I think to do replacement lines to US cars with ABS, as the nut going into the ABS pump has 3/16 line but bigger outside threads.
|
Yes, I bro'ught with me from Europe a whole bunch of the correct flare nuts, connectors, "T"'s --- etc etc...
I was told by my friend here ZsZ that there are 2 types of flares and that we need the "DIN" type (single flare) as opposed to the "SAE" type of double flare. So I guess I simply need to find for myself a flare tool that will flare the DIN type.
http://www.fedhillusa.com/?page=flare&fbclid=I...2M2u2uCQZE
| crazyvwvanman wrote: |
Read the bad reviews for that listing!
Find better stuff, hopefully with metric 10x1 fittings.
Mark
|
Thanks Mark, I didn't notice that... will change to this one;
https://www.amazon.ca/25ft-Copper-Nickel-Brake-Tub...&psc=1
The first one seems to be just steel line with copper coating... whereas this one seems to be a true alloy. All very good reviews. Total price was only $15CAD more because this one had free shipping and the other charged $7.
But it will arrive 2 or 3 weeks from now --- no problem, I still need to jack up the rear and work on that... plus a bunch of engine work.
THANKS MARK FOR THE HEAD'S UP!!!! You're Smart like crazy
_________________
www.edwardpowell.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
