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pastellgreen
Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2012
Posts: 1049
Location: Germany
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 Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2021 1:21 pm Post subject: Re: wheel cylinder quality? |
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| Very good cylinders come from LPR Italy. They are made in Italy, I drive them for years in several cars without issues. Especially the ones for beetles -1964 still have the small slot, what ATE and TRW don't care about... |
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Zundfolge1432 
Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2004
Posts: 12468
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| Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2021 1:34 pm Post subject: Re: wheel cylinder quality? |
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| Cusser wrote: |
| dcheek wrote: |
You get good results with all aftermarket brands if you BLEED YOUR BRAKES ON A REGULAR BASIS with fresh fluid. Say every 2-3 years. You let 'em sit for years on end they all will start leaking - and yes the German one will leak just the same. Ask me how I know.
Dave |
My 1998 Frontier and my 2004 Frontier (260K and 106K) are still on their factory brake fluid, and factory clutch fluid on the 2004 as well. They both have their factory discs/calipers in front and drums/wheel cylinders in the rear. I have replaced brake pads and brake shoes on them. However, I'm in Arizona, and a more humid climate may need fluid changes. |
Ever here the old saying “just because you can doesn’t mean you should”
Skipping maintenance and yes not changing brake fluid qualifies. As far back as 1974 VW specified as fluid change interval of 2 years or 48k miles and they were using Dot 3. Those older fluids would attract and get moisture in the system causing rust. Brake fluid flush is cheap maintenance and will extend the life of brake components.
Where possible I would go with Dot 5.1 |
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MrGoodtunes
Samba Member
Joined: May 14, 2012
Posts: 852
Location: South Florida
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| Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2021 5:30 pm Post subject: Re: wheel cylinder quality? |
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Here are some wheel cylinders from my stash. They're for my buggy on a 1965 bug chasis.
Top to bottom:
1. Ate, from Wolfsburg West, who show it as being from Germany
2. Varga, from long ago, probably a VW specialist, made in Brazil
3. Unbranded, probably from FLAPS, most likely made in China
4. Unbranded, from Pep Boys, box show'd made in Mexico
The Ate and Varga are very similar to each other as well as my memory of how they came from the VW factory. Both have the wide slot tho; and they have a couple differences. The new Ate bleeder cap is cone shaped, like all the others except for the old Varga which has rib'd rings that make it a pleasure to pop on and off. The only other difference I can see is metal in the slot where brake shoes fit into piston ends. Varga has a little extra piece of metal which is different from the metal of the piston. Not sure what for, or if it matters. The new Ate does not, but the Chinese one does! Sort of surprising because of the cheap way the China made piston's stopper is cast into the piston instead of having a separate metal ring stopper; its plastic cup pushers are different too, smooth cone shaped. The one made in Mexico has no plastic pushers, replacing them with especially tight wound spring ends.
The most striking thing to me is that the Mexican pistons have no stopper at all, allowing pistons to go deeply into the cylinder as you can see in lower left of pic. So how in the world would you ever adjust shoes? I like to have a definite stop at the cylinder end of the shoe before adjusting the star wheel at other end of shoe. Maybe Mexican Beetles have self-adjusting brakes? |
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jbclem
Samba Member
Joined: November 04, 2011
Posts: 166
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:28 am Post subject: Re: wheel cylinder quality? |
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| Mr. Goodtunes, that's great information. Did you check(and compare) the finish of the bore on any of these wheel cylinders? |
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EVfun
Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012
Posts: 5481
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:43 am Post subject: Re: wheel cylinder quality? |
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Good pictures, thank you. 1965 wheel cylinder should have the wide slot. That is one of the things that makes the '65-'67 rear brakes a 2 year only special. They are like the '68 up rear brakes except with narrower shoes like the '58-'64 brakes. They also have the built in slinger system and 6mm wider drums that have the ribbed center. What does kinda annoy me is that '65-'67 drums and wheel cylinders are now being typically sold as '58-'67. Guess what... my buggy now has those wide slot wheel cylinders in its '64 brake system. It was all I could find.
_________________
| Wildthings wrote: |
| As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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[email protected]
Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2003
Posts: 4863
Location: Harmony, PA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 6:24 am Post subject: Re: wheel cylinder quality? |
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| EVfun wrote: |
| What does kinda annoy me is that '65-'67 drums and wheel cylinders are now being typically sold as '58-'67. Guess what... my buggy now has those wide slot wheel cylinders in its '64 brake system. It was all I could find. |
After the millions of vehicles sold, you now realize the insignificance of a pre-68 Beetle in the world of aftermarket parts. Right outer tie rod ends have been sold as the inner left for years because the aftermarket didn’t want to spend the money to correctly manufacture the angled one. Pretty sure there used to be two different front wheel cylinders, now the later one is marketed as 58-77. |
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pastellgreen
Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2012
Posts: 1049
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 11:44 am Post subject: Re: wheel cylinder quality? |
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| [email protected] wrote: |
| EVfun wrote: |
| What does kinda annoy me is that '65-'67 drums and wheel cylinders are now being typically sold as '58-'67. Guess what... my buggy now has those wide slot wheel cylinders in its '64 brake system. It was all I could find. |
After the millions of vehicles sold, you now realize the insignificance of a pre-68 Beetle in the world of aftermarket parts. Right outer tie rod ends have been sold as the inner left for years because the aftermarket didn’t want to spend the money to correctly manufacture the angled one. Pretty sure there used to be two different front wheel cylinders, now the later one is marketed as 58-77. |
Have you read my statement above? |
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cyclehobby
Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2013
Posts: 156
Location: North Jersey
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 12:36 pm Post subject: Re: wheel cylinder quality? |
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I replaced my wheel cylinders with Raybestos units from Rock Auto two years ago. Fit right, bled well and they're still working nicely. I guess time will tell, but they seemed like good quality.
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1967 Beetle
Northern NJ |
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MrGoodtunes
Samba Member
Joined: May 14, 2012
Posts: 852
Location: South Florida
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 2:17 pm Post subject: Re: wheel cylinder quality? |
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| jbclem wrote: |
| ... Did you check(and compare) the finish of the bore on any of these wheel cylinders? |
Of course, but comparing would be unfair 'cuz the Ate arrived from WW yesterday versus the rest being way old and/or used. Hadn't even taken the new one apart yet, until you ask'd about the bore; so, did it today. The rubber cups were pretty well frozen in place, made the bore look mess'd up. But it clean'd real nice using just a dab of non-abrasive hand cleaner on my finger tip; almost mirror smooth.
Last edited by MrGoodtunes on Thu Sep 09, 2021 2:57 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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[email protected]
Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2003
Posts: 4863
Location: Harmony, PA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 2:27 pm Post subject: Re: wheel cylinder quality? |
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| pastellgreen wrote: |
| [email protected] wrote: |
| EVfun wrote: |
| What does kinda annoy me is that '65-'67 drums and wheel cylinders are now being typically sold as '58-'67. Guess what... my buggy now has those wide slot wheel cylinders in its '64 brake system. It was all I could find. |
After the millions of vehicles sold, you now realize the insignificance of a pre-68 Beetle in the world of aftermarket parts. Right outer tie rod ends have been sold as the inner left for years because the aftermarket didn’t want to spend the money to correctly manufacture the angled one. Pretty sure there used to be two different front wheel cylinders, now the later one is marketed as 58-77. |
Have you read my statement above? |
As in the wide/narrow slots for the shoes is the main characteristic that differ in og 58-64, and 65-67 cylinders, and the 58-64 drums use a slinger? Another difference in the cylinders is the later ones are 19.05 mm while the early ones are 19.00. If a company can make a part that will “work” for multiple applications, they discontinue the other parts with the variations. Later 5 bolt drums can be used on earlier vehicles. Are these situations “correct”, or in instances “ideal”? Not necessarily, but they will be functional. Superbeetle front brake shoes can be used on the rear of a Type 3 if you cut the slot in them for the e-brake cross bar. Superbeetle wheel cylinders are 23.8mm, and the Type 3 are 22, but they are also bolt in inner changeable. I could easily see the shoes being produced in the future with the e-brake cut, and being marketed as SB front/Type 3 rear, and the 22mm cylinders discontinued in favor of using the 23.8 for both applications. |
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EVfun
Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012
Posts: 5481
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:04 pm Post subject: Re: wheel cylinder quality? |
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| pastellgreen wrote: |
| Very good cylinders come from LPR Italy. They are made in Italy, I drive them for years in several cars without issues. Especially the ones for beetles -1964 still have the small slot, what ATE and TRW don't care about... |
Does anyone know where to buy these in the USA? I asked all my favorite VW houses about their '58-'64 wheel cylinders and all here were wide slot, even Wolfsburg West.
I started keeping an eye out for '65 front backing plates. I finally found a good set but I had already redone my small window brakes by then. If I later go that route would use '68 up rear brakes in new '65-'67 drums. With the extra 6mm drum width that would be easy to fit. 6mm per side won't screw up the rear wheel and tire fit, but 4 lug drums would.
_________________
| Wildthings wrote: |
| As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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Mervo
Samba Member
Joined: January 04, 2016
Posts: 75
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:56 pm Post subject: Re: wheel cylinder quality? |
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I recently replaced my rear wheel cylinders with some ATE ones. The ones I removed I disassembled after testing them on the bench. One was slightly leaking and the other was solid/stuck. Fluid was clean as was recently changed.
I read several threads on greasing the cylinder parts with Red Rubber Grease designed for brake parts. Cheap at the local FLAPS. I did this and re-assembled and installed. I wonder how important is this last step?
_________________
1962 Porsche 356
1968 Porsche 911 (sold)
1988 Porsche 911
2004 Porsche Turbo
1960 VW beetle (Australian) |
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jbclem
Samba Member
Joined: November 04, 2011
Posts: 166
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| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:02 am Post subject: Re: wheel cylinder quality? |
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| MrGoodtunes, do you remember the name/brand of the non-abrasive hand cleaner you used to clean the cylinder bore... |
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pastellgreen
Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2012
Posts: 1049
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 12:02 pm Post subject: Re: wheel cylinder quality? |
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| EVfun wrote: |
| pastellgreen wrote: |
| Very good cylinders come from LPR Italy. They are made in Italy, I drive them for years in several cars without issues. Especially the ones for beetles -1964 still have the small slot, what ATE and TRW don't care about... |
Does anyone know where to buy these in the USA? I asked all my favorite VW houses about their '58-'64 wheel cylinders and all here were wide slot, even Wolfsburg West.
I started keeping an eye out for '65 front backing plates. I finally found a good set but I had already redone my small window brakes by then. If I later go that route would use '68 up rear brakes in new '65-'67 drums. With the extra 6mm drum width that would be easy to fit. 6mm per side won't screw up the rear wheel and tire fit, but 4 lug drums would. |
LPR has also a warehouse in Saint Louis, so there has to be a place to buy their products. It would be a good thing if WW would buy their brake stuff at LPR. A small slotted wheel cylinder costs 28 Euros here in Germany, that is not too much for a quality product made in Europe. |
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MrGoodtunes
Samba Member
Joined: May 14, 2012
Posts: 852
Location: South Florida
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| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 6:43 pm Post subject: Re: wheel cylinder quality? |
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| jbclem wrote: |
| MrGoodtunes, do you remember the name/brand of the non-abrasive hand cleaner you used to clean the cylinder bore... |
Goop, good stuff; has an interesting vibration when you tap on its can. When warm (e.g. in your 98.6°F hands), it sort of melts; sometimes separates into a clear liquid part and foamy white part (like the "head" on a draft beer). Either part is actually sometimes more useful than the original blend. Got it at my local Walmart superstore. Not expensive.
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Cusser
Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006
Posts: 31385
Location: Hot Arizona
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| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 8:55 pm Post subject: Re: wheel cylinder quality? |
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Goop used to be a mineral spirits emulsion, not sure if they've modified to something more environmentally friendly.
_________________
1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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Dane Tyler
Samba Member
Joined: August 12, 2003
Posts: 14
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| Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2023 12:03 pm Post subject: Re: wheel cylinder quality? |
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| pastellgreen wrote: |
| Very good cylinders come from LPR Italy. They are made in Italy, I drive them for years in several cars without issues. Especially the ones for beetles -1964 still have the small slot, what ATE and TRW don't care about... |
FYI, I recently purchased new LPR wheel cylinders for my 1963 Bug, and all of them are wide slot. The above statement (quoted, my bolding) is no longer true. |
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EVfun
Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012
Posts: 5481
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2023 4:22 pm Post subject: Re: wheel cylinder quality? |
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| Dane Tyler wrote: |
| FYI, I recently purchased new LPR wheel cylinders for my 1963 Bug, and all of them are wide slot. The above statement (quoted, my bolding) is no longer true. |
Thanks for the update.
It seems to work fine. My rear ‘58-‘64 brakes got wide slot wheel cylinders years ago by necessity. It seems to work fine. Now both ends have wide slot wheel cylinders.
Not liking that I managed to get myself a pair of ‘65 only front backing plates. By the time I found them I had rebuilt my front ‘58-‘64 brakes and they seem fine with the wide slot wheel cylinders too. I think that is because the narrow slot adjusters can hold them from both sides to keep the shoes from tipping down into the wide slots without support from the other 2 shoe resting spots.
_________________
| Wildthings wrote: |
| As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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pastellgreen
Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2012
Posts: 1049
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2023 12:35 pm Post subject: Re: wheel cylinder quality? |
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| EVfun wrote: |
| Dane Tyler wrote: |
| FYI, I recently purchased new LPR wheel cylinders for my 1963 Bug, and all of them are wide slot. The above statement (quoted, my bolding) is no longer true. |
Thanks for the update.
It seems to work fine. My rear ‘58-‘64 brakes got wide slot wheel cylinders years ago by necessity. It seems to work fine. Now both ends have wide slot wheel cylinders.
Not liking that I managed to get myself a pair of ‘65 only front backing plates. By the time I found them I had rebuilt my front ‘58-‘64 brakes and they seem fine with the wide slot wheel cylinders too. I think that is because the narrow slot adjusters can hold them from both sides to keep the shoes from tipping down into the wide slots without support from the other 2 shoe resting spots. |
I think there must be a mistake. Here in Germany, we still get the LPR wheel cylinders with small slot. I recently bought a full set. They come in silver grey packages with green LPR logo. Here are the OEM article numbers written on white labels:
Front: 4242ATL
Rear: 4936ATL
Make shure you get the right ones! In Europe we get them here:
https://www.kaeferland-shop.de/fahrwerk/bremse/rad...7/64?c=247
https://www.kaeferland-shop.de/fahrwerk/bremse/rad...7/64?c=248
Check also this thread from jbannon, page 4:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=761529&start=60
see his first post about renovating the brake and scroll down reading the further posts with happy ending concerning this |
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Dane Tyler
Samba Member
Joined: August 12, 2003
Posts: 14
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| Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2023 6:56 pm Post subject: Re: wheel cylinder quality? |
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IAP sells these in US. Rears are labeled as T-1 58-65 Italian.
Fronts - labeled as T-1 58-78, which at least explains the front with wide slot:
| pastellgreen wrote: |
| EVfun wrote: |
| Dane Tyler wrote: |
| FYI, I recently purchased new LPR wheel cylinders for my 1963 Bug, and all of them are wide slot. The above statement (quoted, my bolding) is no longer true. |
Thanks for the update.
It seems to work fine. My rear ‘58-‘64 brakes got wide slot wheel cylinders years ago by necessity. It seems to work fine. Now both ends have wide slot wheel cylinders.
Not liking that I managed to get myself a pair of ‘65 only front backing plates. By the time I found them I had rebuilt my front ‘58-‘64 brakes and they seem fine with the wide slot wheel cylinders too. I think that is because the narrow slot adjusters can hold them from both sides to keep the shoes from tipping down into the wide slots without support from the other 2 shoe resting spots. |
I think there must be a mistake. Here in Germany, we still get the LPR wheel cylinders with small slot. I recently bought a full set. They come in silver grey packages with green LPR logo. Here are the OEM article numbers written on white labels:
Front: 4242ATL
Rear: 4936ATL
Make shure you get the right ones! In Europe we get them here:
https://www.kaeferland-shop.de/fahrwerk/bremse/rad...7/64?c=247
https://www.kaeferland-shop.de/fahrwerk/bremse/rad...7/64?c=248
Check also this thread from jbannon, page 4:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=761529&start=60
see his first post about renovating the brake and scroll down reading the further posts with happy ending concerning this |
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