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T3 Technique Ball Joints - Not created equal
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valvecovergasket
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 9:32 am    Post subject: Re: T3 Technique Ball Joints - Not created equal Reply with quote

skills@eurocarsplus wrote:

question, are you going to make the lowers greaseable? i may have missed it but wanted to ask


same question

also curious on the uppers - would the added length negate the need for the BJ spacers on lifted vans? or would the spacer + the longer joint be a worthwhile combo, or too long?


amazing work!
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 9:55 am    Post subject: Re: T3 Technique Ball Joints - Not created equal Reply with quote

This is so cool. Colour me impressed!

Thanks Chris. Big undertaking I'm sure. I hope it all works out to your standards.

Neil.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 11:08 am    Post subject: Re: T3 Technique Ball Joints - Not created equal Reply with quote

Not to distract from Christopher's excellent solution.
There are correctly made UBJ spacers. The typical spacer available from US vendors do not have any geometry correction. You cannot simply space down and maintain geometry. Brickwerks sells spacer with the correct geometry.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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Christopher Schimke
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:42 pm    Post subject: Re: T3 Technique Ball Joints - Not created equal Reply with quote

Thanks for the compliments and support. It has been (and still is) a huge undertaking. However, I think it will e worth it in the end.

Okay, I'll try to cover all the questions, but if I miss one (or more), let me know and I'd be happy to answer.

FAQ:

    Quote:
    * Are they going to be greaseable?

    No! We tossed around a few different ideas of how best to make them greaseable and in the end, the cost and effort was not really worth it. The problem is mostly due to the fact that while I could make them greaseable for the 2wd, it's almost impossible to pull off for a Syncro application due to the tolerance between the end cap of the ball joint (where the grease fitting has to go) and the CV joint. There's just no room for the grease fitting. And since this project is already overwhelmingly expensive, I can't afford to produce two different styles. In the end, it just made more sense to spend the money and concentrate on making the joints to the highest quality standards rather than make any compromises just to allow them to be greaseable.

    Quote:
    *How do I buy a set?

    The uppers should be available in a month or so and then they are, they will be listed on the T3 Technique website. The lowers won't be available until next Spring (fingers crossed) and again, they will be on the website.

    Quote:
    *What is the difference between the new T3 Technique lower ball joints and the Lemforder and previous Moog (same as Lemforder)?

    Since the Lemforders were the gold standard for Vanagon lower ball joints, I tried to incorporate as many of the things that made them so good into the new T3 Technique joints. The new T3 joints are expected to perform as good or better than the Lemforders.

    Quote:
    *Do the tall upper ball joints replace upper ball joint spacers?

    Yes! However, not only do they replace the upper ball joint spacers, they also improve suspension geometry in way the spacers can't.
    Upper ball joint spacers move the upper control arm upward, but they do not change the pivot point of the upper ball joint. Because the pivot point is in the same location as is was without the upper ball joint spacers in place, the camber curve (how much camber (+/-) the wheel sees as it goes through it's cycle) is nearly the same. In fact, depending on the ride height of the van, the camber curve can actually be worse than stock with the upper ball joint spacers in place. When the suspension cycles and the camber changes radically, it creates bump steer. Bump steer is just like it sounds. It's when the tire hits a bump and the van self steers. Bump steer on a lifted 2wd is a massive problem that contributes to them feeling twitchy and unpredictable.
    Because the new T3 tall upper ball joints actually move the pivot point of the upper ball joints upward, they change (improve) the camber curve and radically reduce bump steer. The difference between a lifted 2wd with stock ball joints and one with the tall ball joints is amazing. The ride quality is better (due to the reduced angle between the pivot points of the upper ball joint and the upper control arm bushings) and the handing is so much more stable and predictable. It's quite impressive actually.

    Quote:
    *What ride height is considered "lifted"?

    As of today, I'm going to say that any 2wd van that is lifted in the front to a height of 18" or above (center of hub to fender lip) will greatly benefit from the tall UBJs. In other words, it's the actual ride height that determines the need for the tall UBJs, not the amount of lift. The reason for this is because you could start out with van that has a 16" ride height, lift it 1.5", and end up with a 17.5" ride height which would not require tall ball joints. The way the tall UBJs affect the geometry may cause camber alignment issues for 2WD vans that have ride heights lower than 18". For a Syncro, pretty much all can benefit from the tall upper ball joints.

    Quote:
    *Is the joint in a different location than the stock version? Is the SAI is the same as stock?

    The tall upper ball joints are not offset in any way. The SAI (Steering Axis Inclination) is the same). However, because the tall UBJ pushes the upper control arm upward, this forces the distance between the upper control arm bushings and the upper ball joint further apart which changes the static and dynamic camber.

    Quote:
    *Where are these joints made?

    The joints are made in Taiwan. There, I said it. Yeah, I know what some of you are thinking, but to be honest, it's pretty unfounded to think that just because the joints are made in Taiwan that they are junk. The company that I am working with to produce these has American workers in the factory every day making sure that quality is the number one priority and they the products coming out of the factory are up to standards. If I were to try to make this happen in America (and I di look into it), the cost for the joints would be so incredibly high that it simply wouldn't be feasible. My thoughts are that it's better to bring a quality product to market that's made in Taiwan than to not bring it to market at all because it's unaffordable, both from a manufacturing standpoint as well as retail pricing. Not too many people are going to pop for a $150 ball joint when the next closest joint costs $20. It's the world we live in. While I would loved to have had these made here in the USA, it's just not possible right now. But I will let you know that with the exception of the plasma gauge kits, ALL other bespoke T3 Technique products are being made right here in the USA and most of them with USA-sourced materials.


    Quote:
    *What do you expect the longevity of the boots and warranty on boot failure and what would the warranty be on the joints?

    The boots for both the uppers and lowers will be a nitrile/PVC blend which should prove to be a really good, long lasting boot. I'm planning on having extra boots manufactured though.
    There is no specific warranty at this time, but I fairly back all of the products I sell and happily replace parts that fail prematurely. That's not to say there won't be a warranty, just that I haven't settled on exactly what it will be.


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Last edited by Christopher Schimke on Tue Sep 14, 2021 7:26 am; edited 1 time in total
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ALIKA T3
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 8:49 pm    Post subject: Re: T3 Technique Ball Joints - Not created equal Reply with quote

greebly wrote:
From https://wagenswest.com/how_to/how_to_images/bus_vanagon_balljoints/IMG_6155.JPG
I understand that the Lemfoerder balljoints were becoming hard to obtain. Given your willingness to support the Vanagon community and exemplary customer service I would buy them from you if I had not obtained a set of moog a year or so ago for my suspension overhaul. Do you have any differences with the Lemfoerder/Moog joints?

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


These pics don't apply anymore, these products don't exist as they were when the pic was taken. Redesign, change of production plant location etc....
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2021 9:21 am    Post subject: Re: T3 Technique Ball Joints - Not created equal Reply with quote

Chris, Thanks for filling the void with these pieces.... You stepped up and found the means to produce a superior product that, well, just isn't found anywhere anymore.
As far as Taiwan, I was glad to see that it wasn't China !! My other hobby is old 2 stroke scooters.... the parts that I get out of Taiwan do not even compare to the trash coming out of China...
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2021 10:17 am    Post subject: Re: T3 Technique Ball Joints - Not created equal Reply with quote

Will they fit in the Burly upper control arm ?
Thanks for your investment in the future of t3 driving !
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2021 10:31 am    Post subject: Re: T3 Technique Ball Joints - Not created equal Reply with quote

Good on you Christpher for keeping our Vanagons running.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2021 10:52 am    Post subject: Re: T3 Technique Ball Joints - Not created equal Reply with quote

turbotype1 wrote:
the parts that I get out of Taiwan do not even compare to the trash coming out of China...

At this point the Chinese have the experience and the equipment to produce a superior product. A company that contracts with a Chinese manufacturer can specify whatever quality they are willing to pay for. The problem is within the Chinese mindset. Any rejects from that stringent quality will find their way unto the market as counterfeit product competing with the company that markets them and diluting their brand. Secondly the likely intellectual property theft, the propensity for Chinese manufacturers to take the product and produce their own competing brand at a reduced price. Country of origin is no longer a barometer of quality. Western companies pay so much taxes and benfits that they cannot compete with Southest Asia for manufactured goods. They have to cut corners to compete. The better parts can and do come from China. Mexico is the next great manufacturing base for North America.
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Christopher Schimke
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2021 11:48 am    Post subject: Re: T3 Technique Ball Joints - Not created equal Reply with quote

greebly wrote:
turbotype1 wrote:
the parts that I get out of Taiwan do not even compare to the trash coming out of China...

At this point the Chinese have the experience and the equipment to produce a superior product. A company that contracts with a Chinese manufacturer can specify whatever quality they are willing to pay for. The problem is within the Chinese mindset. Any rejects from that stringent quality will find their way unto the market as counterfeit product competing with the company that markets them and diluting their brand. Secondly the likely intellectual property theft, the propensity for Chinese manufacturers to take the product and produce their own competing brand at a reduced price. Country of origin is no longer a barometer of quality. Western companies pay so much taxes and benfits that they cannot compete with Southest Asia for manufactured goods. They have to cut corners to compete. The better parts can and do come from China. Mexico is the next great manufacturing base for North America.



You both have good, valid points, but I think what turbotype1 was saying is right in line with what we are dealing with on our Vanagons in terms of getting junk parts. I didn't take turbotype1's words as saying that ALL products out of China are trash. Rather, the way I interpreted it was that the Chinese parts he is getting for his scooters are trash. That's the exact same thing we deal with on so many parts for the Vanagons and it's exactly why I went down this ball joint road.


Crankey wrote:
Will they fit in the Burly upper control arm ?


Yes!
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2021 11:56 am    Post subject: Re: T3 Technique Ball Joints - Not created equal Reply with quote

Does the extended length version negate the need for a spacer or would there be any benefit to stacking them together?
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2021 5:39 pm    Post subject: Re: T3 Technique Ball Joints - Not created equal Reply with quote

Before this thread gets locked.
Exclamation
Will you post an announcement when these are ready to purchase?
If there’s a list, please put me on it.

Thank you
Owen
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2021 5:59 pm    Post subject: Re: T3 Technique Ball Joints - Not created equal Reply with quote

Christopher Schimke wrote:


[list]* Are they going to be greaseable?
No! We tossed around a few different ideas of how best to make them greaseable and in the end, the cost and effort was not really worth it.


that's a shame. in the 2wd flavor it would be easy enough to drill a hole in both the joint and the plastic spacer, and in fact mold the spacer with internal grease channels.

reason i asked is i had huge issues with bay window lemforders where they got tight (yea, nuts right) AFTER they'd been run a few thousand miles. this was on a customers bus and steering wheel returnability wasn't there....you could literally come out of a turn and the wheel would not self center

i drilled for grease fittings and now it needs a squirt every 2k Rolling Eyes

i hope that isn't going to be an issue with these because if that is the case we are no further ahead

the amount of grease smooshed into the top of the joint means nothing other than someone had a good time with the trigger of the squirter or had a fat generous finger of grease to poop in there
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2021 6:11 pm    Post subject: Re: T3 Technique Ball Joints - Not created equal Reply with quote

There were major reasons greaseable components were eliminated.
Improvements in materials and lubricates. Studies were showing that dirt forced into components by inadequate cleaning of the fittings was affecting longevity. Non adherence to recommended greases used for relubing was causing lubricant breakdown. The cherry on top was cost reduction.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2021 6:54 pm    Post subject: Re: T3 Technique Ball Joints - Not created equal Reply with quote

i would assume a MAJOR factor in greaseable joint failure was lubricant incompatibility. 100% of the shops and 99.999% of owners are going to shoot into the joint whatever schmoo is currently in the gun.

looking at the joint photos, it looks like a moly-based grease. good decision as that is what i see in my TRW joints compared to the toilet ring wax i see in others. but what is compatible with that moly-looking grease? what is the base component? calcium, lithium, dial bar soap stock? who knows and who's going to track the lube recommendation because we ALL can't find exactly what the Bentley Bible prescribed back in 1991. i drives me nuts not to have greaseable fittings but i've seen greases turn to liquid from incompatibility. probably better to not mix them in the long run.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2021 7:14 pm    Post subject: Re: T3 Technique Ball Joints - Not created equal Reply with quote

Oh sure,don't tell that to the original tie rod ends on my Oval Window.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 7:15 am    Post subject: Re: T3 Technique Ball Joints - Not created equal Reply with quote

your old tie rod ends may be the very reason they are lasting so long! greases were simpler then with fewer incompatibility issues. and you probably have the same old grease gun tube you've been using for the last 50 years <grin>!

good article on grease incompatibility
https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/28876/grease-incompatibility-problems
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 10:33 am    Post subject: Re: T3 Technique Ball Joints - Not created equal Reply with quote

valvecovergasket wrote:
Does the extended length version negate the need for a spacer or would there be any benefit to stacking them together?


From the FAQ above:

[list]*Do the tall upper ball joints replace upper ball joint spacers?
Yes! However, not only do they replace the upper ball joint spacers, they also improve suspension geometry in way the spacers can't.
Upper ball joint spacers move the upper control arm upward, but they do not change the pivot point of the upper ball joint. Because the pivot point is in the same location as is was without the upper ball joint spacers in place, the camber curve (how much camber (+/-) the wheel sees as it goes through it's cycle) is nearly the same. In fact, depending on the ride height of the van, the camber curve can actually be worse than stock with the upper ball joint spacers in place. When the suspension cycles and the camber changes radically, it creates bump steer. Bump steer is just like it sounds. It's when the tire hits a bump and the van self steers. Bump steer on a lifted 2wd is a massive problem that contributes to them feeling twitchy and unpredictable.
Because the new T3 tall upper ball joints actually move the pivot point of the upper ball joints upward, they change (improve) the camber curve and radically reduce bump steer. The difference between a lifted 2wd with stock ball joints and one with the tall ball joints is amazing. The ride quality is better (due to the reduced angle between the pivot points of the upper ball joint and the upper control arm bushings) and the handing is so much more stable and predictable. It's quite impressive actually.[list=]

Is to the question about running both the tall ball joints as well as an upper ball joint spacers, it really depends on the set up and intended use. If you have a 2wd or Syncro that is lifted quite high, then yes, that could be a benefit. But under normal circumstances, it would not be advantageous to run both.

9.5isCanadian wrote:
Before this thread gets locked.
Exclamation
Will you post an announcement when these are ready to purchase?
If there’s a list, please put me on it.

Thank you
Owen


Yes, I will definitely post in this thread as well as Instagram/Facebook. I'm not doing a contact list or preorders at this point though.


skills@eurocarsplus wrote:
Christopher Schimke wrote:


[list]* Are they going to be greaseable?
No! We tossed around a few different ideas of how best to make them greaseable and in the end, the cost and effort was not really worth it.


that's a shame. in the 2wd flavor it would be easy enough to drill a hole in both the joint and the plastic spacer, and in fact mold the spacer with internal grease channels.

reason i asked is i had huge issues with bay window lemforders where they got tight (yea, nuts right) AFTER they'd been run a few thousand miles. this was on a customers bus and steering wheel returnability wasn't there....you could literally come out of a turn and the wheel would not self center

i drilled for grease fittings and now it needs a squirt every 2k Rolling Eyes

i hope that isn't going to be an issue with these because if that is the case we are no further ahead


I can understand your disappointment. I wish I could do it all to suit everyone/every application, but I had to make a decision and the tradeoff I decided to make on these is the best compromise I could come up with, even though it may not be the popular decision or one that some may not understand.

skills@eurocarsplus wrote:
the amount of grease smooshed into the top of the joint means nothing other than someone had a good time with the trigger of the squirter or had a fat generous finger of grease to poop in there


Actually, this is not an accurate assessment. The new joint is completely filled with grease all the way through. If you look at the cut away photo of the joint, you can see one of the grease channels at the top. While I cleaned that up for the photo, that area and all the other grease channels were all completely filled with grease. In other words, the joint is not assembled dry, then a glob of grease applied to the outside of the ball, then the boot. That may be the case with other joints, but not the new ones I'm having made.

dgbeatty wrote:
There were major reasons greaseable components were eliminated.
Improvements in materials and lubricates. Studies were showing that dirt forced into components by inadequate cleaning of the fittings was affecting longevity. Non adherence to recommended greases used for relubing was causing lubricant breakdown. The cherry on top was cost reduction.

DanHoug wrote:
i would assume a MAJOR factor in greaseable joint failure was lubricant incompatibility. 100% of the shops and 99.999% of owners are going to shoot into the joint whatever schmoo is currently in the gun.

looking at the joint photos, it looks like a moly-based grease. good decision as that is what i see in my TRW joints compared to the toilet ring wax i see in others. but what is compatible with that moly-looking grease? what is the base component? calcium, lithium, dial bar soap stock? who knows and who's going to track the lube recommendation because we ALL can't find exactly what the Bentley Bible prescribed back in 1991. i drives me nuts not to have greaseable fittings but i've seen greases turn to liquid from incompatibility. probably better to not mix them in the long run.
good article on grease incompatibility
https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/28876/grease-incompatibility-problems


Yes, in addition to not being applicable to Syncro application, grease incompatibility was a major factor in the decision making process for/against making the lower ball joints greaseable. As is explained in the link Dan posted above, dissimilar greases can be incompatible and that incompatibility can cause major problems. The biggest issue is that the combination of two incompatible greases can render the combination useless in terms of proper lubrication which leads to rapid/premature wear.

Some will question, "Then why the upper ball joints were the upper ball joints produced to be greaseable"? Beyond the point that many people wanted them to be greaseable, the answer is twofold. For one, it's really easy to make the upper greaseable as they apply to all T3 applications. But secondly, the upper ball joints have a pretty easy life compared to the lower ball joints. They don't see anywhere near the pressure/abuse the lowers do. As a result, if someone were to add some incompatible grease, it's not the end of the world. Because the upper ball joints sees so much less pressure compared the lower, any shortening of life due to incompatible grease would be minimal.
In contrast, the lower ball joints see an incredible about of pressure and having the correct grease all of the time will definitely contribute to the longevity of the joint.

The grease in all of the joints is a moly lithium grease. The upper joints will come with a note stating which grease to use when regreasing.
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Last edited by Christopher Schimke on Wed Oct 13, 2021 7:05 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 8:43 pm    Post subject: Re: T3 Technique Ball Joints - Not created equal Reply with quote

Chris, if you're interested in expanding the line once these get off the ground, put some interest-gauging feelers around the Bay community. The available Bay parts have been as bad as the Vanagon ones for some time now, and while they're not identical, the internal construction and overall design is very similar to the Vanagon lower joints in your cutaways.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 7:41 am    Post subject: Re: T3 Technique Ball Joints - Not created equal Reply with quote

tristessa wrote:
Chris, if you're interested in expanding the line once these get off the ground, put some interest-gauging feelers around the Bay community. The available Bay parts have been as bad as the Vanagon ones for some time now, and while they're not identical, the internal construction and overall design is very similar to the Vanagon lower joints in your cutaways.


I'll keep that in mind. Thanks!
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