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porkchop-rob
Samba Member
Joined: April 28, 2015
Posts: 440
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 Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 11:04 am Post subject: Yet another 1776 build thread (My Son's 1st car, a Baja) |
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My son is currently building a 1968 beetle Baja. I am gathering parts and planning a 1776 build to power the situation. We are expecting to use stock VW suspension (thing spindles and arms on the Ball joint beam) and stock rear arms. I believe we will run a 30-31" tall tire. We do not yet have a transmission. He wants to keep the heater boxes.
What we have:
Stock AS41 case (already cut for 90.5/92)
69mm CW crank
90.5 Mahle Forged Pistons
Stock Connecting Rods (or a set of 5.4" I beams)
34 ICT Weber Carbs (or a set of Weber 40 IDFs)
Chromoly cut to length push rods
1.4:1 Scat rockers
Straight cut adjustable cam gears
I am struggling to pick a path forward. I am literally all over the place trying to determine Head/Cam/Carb combo for a 16yr old kid. If this engine were for ME, I would just buy Panchitos and a larger cam, ditch the heaters and run the 40s.
What Head/Cam/Carb combo would you guys recommend for a basic baja daily driver? We are not 100% set on using the parts we have on hand, Id rather buy what we need then settle for what we have (within reason...im not buying a Raptor camshaft and lifters!). Are dual carbs a poor choice? We aren't expecting to do much actual off-roading, but the wet weather still kind of concerns me.
_________________
1965 Beetle
1968 Beetle Baja (Son's First Car)
1976 Bus with Subaru (Wife's Riviera Camper) |
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slayer61
Samba Member
Joined: June 01, 2021
Posts: 1018
Location: CA
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| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 11:16 am Post subject: Re: Yet another 1776 build thread (My Son's 1st car, a Baja) |
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| When I was 17ish I had an 1835 with Kads and a 110 and the usual stuff in a Super beetle. It was fun for a high school kid in the 70's. |
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Lingwendil
Samba Member
Joined: February 25, 2009
Posts: 3988
Location: Antioch, California, a block from the hood
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| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 11:28 am Post subject: Re: Yet another 1776 build thread (My Son's 1st car, a Baja) |
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Maybe a Web 163 cam? Depending on carbs? A good friend has the 163 in his 1776, ported stock valve heads, heater boxes, and a bobtail header. It rips with a pair of HPMX40 carbs, but has decent low down torque to push his 30" tires up a hill. Fun car that goes where less nimble cars can't 
Some ported stock valve heads, stock ratio rockers, 40IDF/HPMX/FAJS carbs, and a decent exhaust would be plenty strong without having to scream RPM and get him into trouble.
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73 super beetle thread http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=649622 Back on the Road!
Modify your Kadrons for SVDA http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8115884#8115884
Cast iron VJU4BR8 SVDA reference thread- https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0
Need replacement filters for original Kadron aircleaners? WIX #42087 is a perfect fit, as is Napa Gold #2087! |
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evanfrucht
Samba Member
Joined: July 24, 2016
Posts: 2180
Location: Laurel Canyon, CA
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| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 11:29 am Post subject: Re: Yet another 1776 build thread (My Son's 1st car, a Baja) |
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Yep, I was going to say just build it how you would, that doesnt sound to crazy for a 16 year old but I guess it depends.
This is coming from a 25 year old who drove a '67 Beetle as his first car. If it was a bit quicker it actually would of been less dangerous to drive  At 55 or 60 mph my passing ability and acceleration was basically gone... with a well used 1500SP atleast. Pretty scary when you realize it. I don't think a 1776 with a 110 would be TOO fast for him.
These are my ramblings on the subject 
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1967 Bug ( the daily rod )
1964 Fury Wagon ( the pavement shredder ) |
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Brian_e
Samba Member
Joined: July 28, 2009
Posts: 3295
Location: Rapid City, SD
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| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 11:33 am Post subject: Re: Yet another 1776 build thread (My Son's 1st car, a Baja) |
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Stock crank and rods
AA thick wall 92's
CB2232
Ported stock valve heads, or 35x 32 AA500 would be better
8.5:1
China 40mm webers
CB linkage and manifold kit
1 3/8" baja header
Easy and cheap to build, good power for fun in a baja, but not to much power to get into trouble.
Brian
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Alstrup
Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 7221
Location: Videbaek Denmark
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| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 11:50 am Post subject: Re: Yet another 1776 build thread (My Son's 1st car, a Baja) |
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| porkchop-rob wrote: |
My son is currently building a 1968 beetle Baja. I am gathering parts and planning a 1776 build to power the situation. We are expecting to use stock VW suspension (thing spindles and arms on the Ball joint beam) and stock rear arms. I believe we will run a 30-31" tall tire. We do not yet have a transmission. He wants to keep the heater boxes.
What we have:
Stock AS41 case (already cut for 90.5/92)
69mm CW crank
90.5 Mahle Forged Pistons
Stock Connecting Rods (or a set of 5.4" I beams)
34 ICT Weber Carbs (or a set of Weber 40 IDFs)
Chromoly cut to length push rods
1.4:1 Scat rockers
Straight cut adjustable cam gears
I am struggling to pick a path forward. I am literally all over the place trying to determine Head/Cam/Carb combo for a 16yr old kid. If this engine were for ME, I would just buy Panchitos and a larger cam, ditch the heaters and run the 40s.
What Head/Cam/Carb combo would you guys recommend for a basic baja daily driver? We are not 100% set on using the parts we have on hand, Id rather buy what we need then settle for what we have (within reason...im not buying a Raptor camshaft and lifters!). Are dual carbs a poor choice? We aren't expecting to do much actual off-roading, but the wet weather still kind of concerns me. |
Sounds like you know how to deal with dual carbs. Based on that, and the 30" tyres I would say ported stock valve heads, whether you chose to do it on a set of used stock heads, Tims ported stock or Brian e´s wohnt matter that much performance wise since the heads can easily be made to support more than the engine can breathe, CB 2236 cam w. 1,4 rockers, or the 2232 or 34 cam w. stock rockers. 40 IDF´s and your baja header.
One note. since it will be running big and tall tires you should opt for a programmable ignition. Such an engine would respond very well to a Megajolt or Nodizz system because you can dial in the timing needed at a given rpm and the lower rpm pick up can be improved significantly.
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https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=435993 |
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Clatter
Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003
Posts: 7551
Location: Santa Cruz
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| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 12:13 pm Post subject: Re: Yet another 1776 build thread (My Son's 1st car, a Baja) |
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My 16-year-old has been learning to drive in a beetle with a 1776 i built here-->
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=692654&highlight=heater
We've been having a grand time with it lately!
With the vacuum advance it's been tame enough for him to learn stick herky-jerky style,
But really comes on if i drive it hard.
All said, my combo ended up strong enough that he could get in a lot of trouble with it.
But,
Luckily,
He's a pretty mellow kid and does none of the kind of things i did at 16..
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Bus Motor Build
What’s That Noise?!? |
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porkchop-rob
Samba Member
Joined: April 28, 2015
Posts: 440
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| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 2:13 pm Post subject: Re: Yet another 1776 build thread (My Son's 1st car, a Baja) |
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| Alstrup wrote: |
Sounds like you know how to deal with dual carbs. Based on that, and the 30" tyres I would say ported stock valve heads, whether you chose to do it on a set of used stock heads, Tims ported stock or Brian e´s wohnt matter that much performance wise since the heads can easily be made to support more than the engine can breathe, CB 2236 cam w. 1,4 rockers, or the 2232 or 34 cam w. stock rockers. 40 IDF´s and your baja header.
One note. since it will be running big and tall tires you should opt for a programmable ignition. Such an engine would respond very well to a Megajolt or Nodizz system because you can dial in the timing needed at a given rpm and the lower rpm pick up can be improved significantly. |
Really not interested in porting myself, as i have ZERO knowledge or skills.
Would the AC.Net "L3" heads, CB 2234 and dual weber 40s be a reasonable combo?
Single springs? Any benefit from Aluminum PushRods?
Stock Rockers on Scat solid shafts and elephant foot adjusters?
CB Black box do the same for ignition?
_________________
1965 Beetle
1968 Beetle Baja (Son's First Car)
1976 Bus with Subaru (Wife's Riviera Camper)
Last edited by porkchop-rob on Fri Sep 10, 2021 2:41 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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porkchop-rob
Samba Member
Joined: April 28, 2015
Posts: 440
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| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 2:14 pm Post subject: Re: Yet another 1776 build thread (My Son's 1st car, a Baja) |
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Man, I just skimmed through that thread, last night. I need to go back and digest it a little more.
_________________
1965 Beetle
1968 Beetle Baja (Son's First Car)
1976 Bus with Subaru (Wife's Riviera Camper) |
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MURZI
Samba Member
Joined: August 25, 2005
Posts: 5063
Location: Madisonville, La
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| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:27 pm Post subject: Re: Yet another 1776 build thread (My Son's 1st car, a Baja) |
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FK41 cam with 40x35 panchitos will work nicely.
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62 vert
2276
Tim’s welded heads
45 Dells
A1 sidewinder
Fk44 cam |
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porkchop-rob
Samba Member
Joined: April 28, 2015
Posts: 440
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| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:32 pm Post subject: Re: Yet another 1776 build thread (My Son's 1st car, a Baja) |
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| MURZI wrote: |
| FK41 cam with 40x35 panchitos will work nicely. |
With stock heater boxes?
_________________
1965 Beetle
1968 Beetle Baja (Son's First Car)
1976 Bus with Subaru (Wife's Riviera Camper) |
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MURZI
Samba Member
Joined: August 25, 2005
Posts: 5063
Location: Madisonville, La
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| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:39 pm Post subject: Re: Yet another 1776 build thread (My Son's 1st car, a Baja) |
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didnt see that part.... ignore
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62 vert
2276
Tim’s welded heads
45 Dells
A1 sidewinder
Fk44 cam |
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Alstrup
Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 7221
Location: Videbaek Denmark
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| Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2021 3:47 am Post subject: Re: Yet another 1776 build thread (My Son's 1st car, a Baja) |
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| porkchop-rob wrote: |
| Alstrup wrote: |
Sounds like you know how to deal with dual carbs. Based on that, and the 30" tyres I would say ported stock valve heads, whether you chose to do it on a set of used stock heads, Tims ported stock or Brian e´s wohnt matter that much performance wise since the heads can easily be made to support more than the engine can breathe, CB 2236 cam w. 1,4 rockers, or the 2232 or 34 cam w. stock rockers. 40 IDF´s and your baja header.
One note. since it will be running big and tall tires you should opt for a programmable ignition. Such an engine would respond very well to a Megajolt or Nodizz system because you can dial in the timing needed at a given rpm and the lower rpm pick up can be improved significantly. |
Really not interested in porting myself, as i have ZERO knowledge or skills.
Would the AC.Net "L3" heads, CB 2234 and dual weber 40s be a reasonable combo?
Yes, they will of course work. But you leave a lot of usable power on the plate compared to a set of detailed heads, especially in the lower to mid rpm area where you really need torque with those large tyres
Single springs? Any benefit from Aluminum PushRods?
Sgl HD springs are sufficient for such a combo unless you drive with your head up where its dark. If you go with the 2234 cam you can use stock PR´s shortened to the correct length.
Stock Rockers on Scat solid shafts and elephant foot adjusters?
Defnitely solid shafts and elephant feet adjusters
CB Black box do the same for ignition?
Yes, the BB is 3D adjustble too. But if you are in the position of having to buy an electronic breaker module and the BB there is not a big leap up to a MJ or Nodizz
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porkchop-rob
Samba Member
Joined: April 28, 2015
Posts: 440
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| Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2021 9:14 am Post subject: Re: Yet another 1776 build thread (My Son's 1st car, a Baja) |
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| Brian_e wrote: |
Ported stock valve heads
Brian |
Brian, can you help me with this? I'll sit down and dig through some old threads this afternoon....but I have no idea where to begin with head-work.
_________________
1965 Beetle
1968 Beetle Baja (Son's First Car)
1976 Bus with Subaru (Wife's Riviera Camper) |
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evanfrucht
Samba Member
Joined: July 24, 2016
Posts: 2180
Location: Laurel Canyon, CA
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| Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2021 9:56 am Post subject: Re: Yet another 1776 build thread (My Son's 1st car, a Baja) |
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| porkchop-rob wrote: |
| Brian_e wrote: |
Ported stock valve heads
Brian |
Brian, can you help me with this? I'll sit down and dig through some old threads this afternoon....but I have no idea where to begin with head-work. |
Brian will have lots of good info. He gave me some pointers when I did mine and I also had them flow tested by him with good results and learned a lot. They work great. I have tons of pictures in my build thread if you want to check it out, page 5-10 has head porting work. I didn't NEED to do the welding BTW. Also AA501 castings might be better as they have more material around the ports, which is good for big ports but worse for cooling (can be made better by drilling holes, etc.) I used AA500's. https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0
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1964 Fury Wagon ( the pavement shredder ) |
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porkchop-rob
Samba Member
Joined: April 28, 2015
Posts: 440
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| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 6:23 am Post subject: Re: Yet another 1776 build thread (My Son's 1st car, a Baja) |
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Honest question...
If stock valved heads work with port work, why do almost all of the "performance" aftermarket heads immediately jump to 40 x 35.5?
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1965 Beetle
1968 Beetle Baja (Son's First Car)
1976 Bus with Subaru (Wife's Riviera Camper) |
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Alstrup
Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 7221
Location: Videbaek Denmark
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| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 7:09 am Post subject: Re: Yet another 1776 build thread (My Son's 1st car, a Baja) |
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| porkchop-rob wrote: |
Honest question...
If stock valved heads work with port work, why do almost all of the "performance" aftermarket heads immediately jump to 40 x 35.5? |
Because its way easier to sell heads with larger valves. - you know, the my Willie is larger than yours kinda thing.
Also, the work involved in making a stock valved set of heads work well is about the same as making a set of 40 x 35 mm valves work well.
What people, and tuners have learned to understand over the last 5-10 years is how important port velocity is and also the importance of a proper lower port shape, seat area and chamber shape. In most castings you can only do so much with the chamber and sometimes also the seats, but the lower port and choke point can almost always be improved.
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Clatter
Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003
Posts: 7551
Location: Santa Cruz
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| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 8:36 am Post subject: Re: Yet another 1776 build thread (My Son's 1st car, a Baja) |
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Wish i could take you for a ride in the 1776 i just built..
Not sure what street driving is like in your area,
If you have big wide-open highways and end up lined up side-by-side with muscle cars at stoplights and whatnot..
But around here, that 1776 makes enough power that I only ever get into it for a second or three,
And if i do, it suddenly becomes all about shutting it down..
Top of 2nd gear has no business on residential surface roads.
Heaters or not is a huge decision.
You build a heater box motor differently in many ways.
MANY of the parts people like to add are a waste, or even detrimental to a heater motor.
That's going to be decision #1.
If i had more money to spend on the 1776 i did,
I'd have gotten 1.3 ratio rockers, beehives, and Weber 40s.
At that point, the heaters would be likely to start choking the motor and stacking up heat into the heads.
You can buy stock-valve heads all ported up and ready to run.
I did mine, not very well probably, but it was fun to do and made a difference I'm sure.
That motor has a lot more beans than you might guess.
it really is all in the combo.
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Bus Motor Build
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Brian_e
Samba Member
Joined: July 28, 2009
Posts: 3295
Location: Rapid City, SD
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| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:17 pm Post subject: Re: Yet another 1776 build thread (My Son's 1st car, a Baja) |
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| porkchop-rob wrote: |
Honest question...
If stock valved heads work with port work, why do almost all of the "performance" aftermarket heads immediately jump to 40 x 35.5? |
Just to give you an idea...On my flow bench an out-of-the-box AA500 head with 35x32 valves flows around 115cfm @.500". They are pretty much done at .300" lift. Same CFM from .300-.500" so they are choked.
After porting, and a proper valve job, they flow 142cfm @.450" and right at 280ft/sec average port velocity. These numbers were all done at 28" with a matching IDF manifold and a radius-ed inlet.
The standard off the shelf 40x35 heads really don't flow any better than the regular 35x32 heads, and sometimes they are worse. What people don't realize is the valve throat under the seat, and the rest of the ports are identical to the 35x32 heads. The 40x35 heads have a nasty bowl hog cut under the seat that causes all kinds of problems and turbulence in the port. The larger valve needs complementing larger port to work. Can't just cram a big valve in a small hole and hope it works.
Brian
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modok
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Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26790
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 3:52 pm Post subject: Re: Yet another 1776 build thread (My Son's 1st car, a Baja) |
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I would say....if ONLy a 1776
a CB cheater cam, or at most an engle 100, better yet something in the middle
8-1 compression, detailed stock heads with better springs, 8-dowel the flywheel, replace rocker spring washers with solid washers that's it.
in other respects just fix what's broke, and don't fix what isn't.
This will work OK with a wide range of carburetors and exhaust systems.
Enough low end to at least drivable even if the gearing is too high.
If you LOVE the idfs.....then maybe you will learn to modify the airfilters to be waterproof, or maybe you won't
Maybe you will like a single Dellorto, or maybe you will like ICTs Who knows. You can find out.
Cammed up high strung combos NEED dual IDFs to work, but on mild general purpose engines...... it is more of a personal preference. |
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