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Max Welton
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Joined: May 19, 2003
Posts: 10697
Location: Black Forest, CO
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Max Welton
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2003
Posts: 10697
Location: Black Forest, CO
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Max Welton
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2003
Posts: 10697
Location: Black Forest, CO
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 Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 3:43 pm Post subject: Re: Performance intake and exhaust? |
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Alrighty. Figured I would mount the exhaust. Couple of problems.
First, the heat exchangers are not straight.
I will probably bolt them to something, apply heat to the elbows and bend to into the correct shape.
Max
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1967 Type-3 Fastback
Under the Knife https://shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=151582
Home Stretch https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=767836
Last edited by Max Welton on Mon Sep 13, 2021 3:48 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Max Welton
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2003
Posts: 10697
Location: Black Forest, CO
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ataraxia
Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010
Posts: 4504
Location: Illinois
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| Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:58 pm Post subject: Re: Performance intake and exhaust? |
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| Max Welton wrote: |
I assume this is a gasket?
Max |
Yes - that's what they supply for the exhaust gasket - I didn't use them. I bought CB Performance Graphite Compression gaskets (that I haven't installed yet). When using the standard metal gaskets - I've got an exhaust leak on the #4 side.
| Max Welton wrote: |
The port side exchanger is also not straight but the main problem (for me) is that I'm going to have to move the oil filter. 
Max |
I ran into the same issue - I made probably 8 different versions of the oil filter bracket before the right one was made. Part of the issue was that I originally planned to install an oil cooler and that thermostat/bracket was different from what I ultimately wound up using. I got a lot of help getting the first few passes down in AutoCAD until I shook the rust off (I hadn't used it to design anything in a VERY long time). After that - I made several test pieces until I was satisfied with the result.
The oil filter is easy to reach - isn't in the direct path of anything coming off the rear tire and it won't spill oil on the exhaust when removed. It looks a lot closer to the exhaust than it is because of camera angles. |
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ataraxia
Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010
Posts: 4504
Location: Illinois
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| Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:02 pm Post subject: Re: Performance intake and exhaust? |
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The J Tubes they supply are not straight - they angle down similar to your heat exchangers - I thought they were defective until I fiddled around with it for a while. The collector pieces have a specific way of going together as well.
I don't have experience with the CSP heat exchangers but I would contact CSP before you do anything to them - experience with their other products had led me to understand that they have a slightly different way of fitting parts together that sometimes doesn't make a lot of sense right off the bat.
Another word of caution: You probably won't be able to install the complete engine with the muffler and heat shield in one go - it's a VERY tight fit when it's all together. |
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Max Welton
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2003
Posts: 10697
Location: Black Forest, CO
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| Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:43 pm Post subject: Re: Performance intake and exhaust? |
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| ataraxia wrote: |
The J Tubes they supply are not straight - they angle down similar to your heat exchangers - I thought they were defective until I fiddled around with it for a while. The collector pieces have a specific way of going together as well.
I don't have experience with the CSP heat exchangers but I would contact CSP before you do anything to them - experience with their other products had led me to understand that they have a slightly different way of fitting parts together that sometimes doesn't make a lot of sense right off the bat.
Another word of caution: You probably won't be able to install the complete engine with the muffler and heat shield in one go - it's a VERY tight fit when it's all together. |
Mine did not come with instructions. Did yours?
My plan was to put the heat exchangers, headers and collector on the engine and then put the engine in the car.
Then put the cooling boot on the car and the heat shield on the muffler. The muffler will go on the car last.
I hope.
But I truly don't see how droopy j-tube or heat exchangers could be intentional or a good thing. To get them on the head studs will but significant spring load on them any way you do it.
Max
_________________
1967 Type-3 Fastback
Under the Knife https://shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=151582
Home Stretch https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=767836
Last edited by Max Welton on Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:14 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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ataraxia
Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010
Posts: 4504
Location: Illinois
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| Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:13 pm Post subject: Re: Performance intake and exhaust? |
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| Max Welton wrote: |
| ataraxia wrote: |
The J Tubes they supply are not straight - they angle down similar to your heat exchangers - I thought they were defective until I fiddled around with it for a while. The collector pieces have a specific way of going together as well.
I don't have experience with the CSP heat exchangers but I would contact CSP before you do anything to them - experience with their other products had led me to understand that they have a slightly different way of fitting parts together that sometimes doesn't make a lot of sense right off the bat.
Another word of caution: You probably won't be able to install the complete engine with the muffler and heat shield in one go - it's a VERY tight fit when it's all together. |
Mine did not come with instructions. Did yours?
My plan was to put the heat exchangers, headers and collector on the engine and then put the engine in the car.
Then put the cooling boot on followed by the heat shield. The muffler will go on last.
I hope.
But I truly don't see how droopy j-tube or heat exchangers could be intentional or a good thing. To get them on the head studs will but significant spring load on them any way you do it.
Max |
Mine did come with instructions - and they have them online to download from their site if yours didn't make it into the box.
I found the most success and least amount of frustration installing it this way (install everything 'loosely' and once it's all fit together, tighten it up):
1. Install engine and muffler support brackets
2. Install #2 & #4 pipes (one is the collector)
3. Install J tubes/heat exchanger (#1 )
4. Connect long/crossover pipe from #3 to collector (collector end first)
5. Loosely set the heat shield on top of the collector pipe (it'll be very close to the pulley shroud - I was able to get a finger between the two)
6. Attach the muffler to the collector (don't attach to the support brackets)
7. Connect the heat shield to the muffler
8. Install the bellows boot and the oil fill boot
I don't have any spring load on my J tubes - it's just a weird 'feature' of the CSP exhaust, I guess. It all fits together but not in the order you'd think...
This is the method I've used several times. You cannot install the heat shield on the muffler then install them together because it won't fit - very snug against the rear apron.
Another word of caution: I had to trim my heat shield because it was rubbing on the body. I also dented the top corner on the heat shield down because it was rubbing the bellows boot. |
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Max Welton
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Posts: 10697
Location: Black Forest, CO
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ataraxia
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Posts: 4504
Location: Illinois
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Max Welton
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Joined: May 19, 2003
Posts: 10697
Location: Black Forest, CO
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Max Welton
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Location: Black Forest, CO
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Clatter
Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003
Posts: 7537
Location: Santa Cruz
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 11:33 am Post subject: Re: Performance intake and exhaust? |
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FWIW, I've had to 'stress relieve' exhausts on a couple of occasions.
What it involved for me was to take an extra case, cylinders and heads to make a mock-up motor - using the cylinder shims to get the width the exact same size as the real motor.
Put it on the stand and hauled it all to a guy with a bigass torch.
We heated the exhaust red-hot in places as the mounting bolts were all drawn in.
Then it also got heated in various places while bolted down tight to stress-relieve.
End result is an exhaust that doesn't 'spring away' when the mounting bolts are removed.
Alternately, you can get some of these same things accomplished from the heat of the motor running over time,
As an exhaust that's been run for while always seems to fit better.
But it all depends on how bad it is to start with.
I've never had any aftermarket exhaust fit well ever.
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Bus Motor Build
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Max Welton
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Joined: May 19, 2003
Posts: 10697
Location: Black Forest, CO
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Max Welton
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2003
Posts: 10697
Location: Black Forest, CO
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 2:10 pm Post subject: Re: Performance intake and exhaust? |
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So the 1, 2 and 4 exhausts are connected.
The #3 heat exchanger has a particular problem. The back part hits the mustache bar before the flange goes over the #3 studs. Short term solution is probably to double-nut those studs and pull them.
What I really should do is replace the slip joints on each heater box with weld-on flanges. That would make this whole assembly process easier. 
I need a refill for my MIG gas bottle.
Max
_________________
1967 Type-3 Fastback
Under the Knife https://shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=151582
Home Stretch https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=767836 |
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Max Welton
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2003
Posts: 10697
Location: Black Forest, CO
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ataraxia
Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010
Posts: 4504
Location: Illinois
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:10 pm Post subject: Re: Performance intake and exhaust? |
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| Max Welton wrote: |
Hey ataraxia, did you use those gaskets that CSP provides? How well do they work?
Max |
I have not used them. |
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22407
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:55 pm Post subject: Re: Performance intake and exhaust? |
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| Max Welton wrote: |
The #3 heat exchanger has a particular problem. The back part hits the mustache bar before the flange goes over the #3 studs. Short term solution is probably to double-nut those studs and pull them.
What I really should do is replace the slip joints on each heater box with weld-on flanges. That would make this whole assembly process easier.
I need a refill for my MIG gas bottle.
Max |
The flange set up is the way to go. I did that on my stock muffler too. Doing it on a header arrangement is the way to go as well. It makes it easier to bolt up, and eliminates a potential exhaust leak.
I'm looking at the 2 pics you posted up, and I'm trying to figure out what is wrong. Something doesn't look right. I only say that as it looks like you could/have room for it to go forward, but the air inlet pipe is hitting on the hanger (it shouldn't). Normally there a good 1/2 inch of clearance there, versus being tight. I don't think heating it up with a rose bud would remove that much space, so something else is going on. Is the engine hanger bar straight? You might try unbolting it, and see if that gives you a little more room to play (moving it around).
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Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
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Max Welton
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2003
Posts: 10697
Location: Black Forest, CO
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:34 pm Post subject: Re: Performance intake and exhaust? |
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| Bobnotch wrote: |
| I'm looking at the 2 pics you posted up, and I'm trying to figure out what is wrong. Something doesn't look right. I only say that as it looks like you could/have room for it to go forward, but the air inlet pipe is hitting on the hanger (it shouldn't). Normally there a good 1/2 inch of clearance there, versus being tight. I don't think heating it up with a rose bud would remove that much space, so something else is going on. Is the engine hanger bar straight? You might try unbolting it, and see if that gives you a little more room to play (moving it around). |
I had to do some surgery on the hanger bar to clear the full-flow pump and oil plumbing but that had nothing to do with how it seats on the case. That said, this is also the first time I've used a hanger bar.
I just held up a stock heater-box and it has the same issue. So it isn't a problem with the CSP heater box.
Ugh. Guess I'll have to take all that off again.
But not tomorrow. My wife has cataract surgery in the morning.
Max
_________________
1967 Type-3 Fastback
Under the Knife https://shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=151582
Home Stretch https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=767836 |
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Max Welton
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2003
Posts: 10697
Location: Black Forest, CO
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