Starter

[professor229]

I will try to relate the problem and then ask for advice... I own a VW based kitcar that has an electrical gremlin. I figured it out, and read a few articles on this website about installing a Ford solenoid as a replacement for the OEM solenoid that comes on a VW starter. Essentially, what happens is that I use an expensive trickle charger to maintain the battery so when I punch the ignition button, the engine starts fine.... but the draw from the battery to start this reduces the voltage to an unacceptable level and if I don't drive the car for a distance to recharge the battery, and instead just back it out of storage and leave it in the driveway, the electrical voltage drop is enough to where the starter will not activate.... and I mean nothing. If I plug in the charger or use jumper cables, the starter engages fine and I am back in business..... but all this is a hassle and annoying. Installing a old school Ford solenoid will work on this, but I also wonder if I am dealing with an aging starter. The motor, I think, is a 1971 1600...... and I am 99% sure the starter/solenoid is original.... So instead of doing the gimmicky Ford solenoid install, I am contemplating replacing the starter. On the kitcar website, I got a link to what is supposed to be the premium of all VW starters... for over $300...... THAT is not in the budget. I went to Rock Auto and a few local parts store websites along with Bosch to look at the prices of new and rebuilt. My question is if there is a replacement starter that is superior to the others that is more forgiving on a voltage drop? Any recommendations? My other thought was that I am dealing with a nearly 50 year old starter and any new/rebuilt starter I install would probably fix this problem..... And... a PS... I have installed starters on a ton of cars in my life but never on a VW.... Is there oddities on this that I should be aware of??? As always... thanks for your help, advice, and suggestions... They are greatly appreciated!!! Dennis

[AirHead1966]

This one works great for me. Comes with a lifetime warranty.
Installation is simple, just two bolts hold it to the bellhousing. This one does not need to be supported at the other end with a bushing.

https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/c/ultima/ultima...&pos=0

[Dale M.]

Possibly three issues here, battery in poor shape (yes it can happen even with full time trickle charger) and lacks capacity...

A actually defective starter... IF so, replace with SR 17 from VW "auto stick"

Or a wiring issue in that the solenoid is not getting enough voltage from ignition switch and will not engage starter.... Solution here is what is called a "hard start relay" (same as the FORD starter relay (?)) ....

It simply takes a solid 12 volts from (battery) solenoid terminal and apply it to solenoid engagement terminal (50) to engage starter, its done through the relay contacts when the ignition switch is turned in to start position...

You can get a "kit" from several suppliers or DYI it your self... It's probably the cheapest solution to try first...
_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.

"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ...

[oprn]

I doubt it's the starter. The wiring with all it's connections from back to front and back to the starter again is old and gaining in resistance. The Busses were bad for this. You can fix it by running new wire and cleaning up all the contact points including the ones inside the ignition switch. Voltage drop is caused by high resistance. Or put in the relay...

Replacing the starter is a waste of money without trying this first.
_________________
We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age)

[Q-Dog]

A worn out starter bushing can also make the starter act funny. This would not apply if you have an autostickshift starter.
_________________
Brian

'69 Dune Buggy
'69 Beetle Convertible
'70 Beetle

[Gwoolsey56]

Yes Starters do go bad.....mine went bad a month ago. acted like a bad battery, so i replaced the battery.....still acted the same. It could have just been the bushing, but I have a 12 volt starter on a 6 volt trans....so I opted for the auto stick starter, you won't regret that. If it is your starter.
It also has a 1969 engine with 12 volt flywheel....

[MrGoodtunes]

[professor229]

Just a quick update...... This is not the original wiring and is modern wiring running to the battery. The battery is in the front of the car but I bought a very decent system to run from the battery to the starter.... The problem existed with a newer Exide battery and continued with a replacement new Interstate battery.... too much of a coincidence that two batteries would cause the same problem.... Since this is a donor base for this car I am not absolutely sure of what the motor actually is.... years ago we determined, somehow, that it was a 1971 VW 1600..... I am still suspecting a 50 year old starter problem but need to check all the connections as suggested... Thanks for everyone's advice and if anyone knows a sure fire way to determine the exact age of the motor, please let me know... stamped number somewhere? Thanks

[jspbtown]

There will be a serial number stamped just below the Alternator/Generator stand.

Post it here.....people will tell you.

[Dale M.]

[professor229]

Thanks for that information and I think this is what I did use years ago to determine the engine to be a 1971 but over time, I guess i had forgotten about this.... I will check on it and confirm what it is but it does lead to more and more possible problems.... the first being, doing I have an alternator or a generator? I had a 1962 Chevy that definitely had a generator and you could tell by just looking at it compared to a Chevy one wire alternator that is so common... but how do you tell on a VW? So I did google that, and came up with Dave and Rob again which raised even yet another possible problem.... Here is the link to this research and the next possible problem

http://www.vw-resource.com/alternator_replacement.html

So... now the discussion turns to the "grounding" of the alternator, engine etc. and remember, this is a fiberglass kitcar.... so grounding is ALWAYS a problem and an issue. An electrician friend of mine gave me the best advice on this when I began the restoration and I bought/installed grounding blocks... three of them.... on the car but I never considered the engine grounding part of the discussion.....

Winter is coming soon.... and I have plenty of other projects to complete so this is going on the back burner for now.... It's like throwing a tarp over a restoration project you grow tired of working on..... I am at that point of frustration with all this too.... but I will look for that number below "whatever" I have.....alternator or generator....

Again.. thanks and I am getting an education....

[Dale M.]

IF it looks like either one of these two its a alternator.... Alternators were first produced on 1974 models using a Motorola (and some Bosch) 4 wire alternators (AL78), in 75 the BOSCH 1 wire alternator (AL82)replaced the Motorola 4 wire...

As for grounding, usually the chassis is major ground conductor... Be sure to have a good ground strap between chassis and engine/transaxle... You can connect negative side of battery to chassis or transaxle... Generally anything requiring power and mounted on fiberglass require a ground wire (mostly lighting)... All things mounted on engine block which are metal to metal contact, (alternator to alternator stand, alternator stand to engine block) should not require additional ground wire...
_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.

"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ...

[professor229]

I won't post the pictures I took but I clearly have a generator, not an alternator... I also found a number stamped near the carb on the left side...

113129701AC and thought that would be the engine number... apparently it is not... It is the manifold number..... so I will do some more checking...

[jspbtown]

Stamped below the generator mount.

[Dale M.]

Just like in picture below...

_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.

"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ...

[professor229]

Good morning....

Found it... thanks... but now decoding it.... ?? I went to several decoding sites and don't really have a definitive answer.... just a guess.... any help would be appreciated....

AE015989

and the charts all say that is a 1971 as I thought I had been told years ago but I also see the AE prefix could be a 1972 or 1973 too..... ideas?

Is the 015989 just the production number?

Thanks... Dennis

[jspbtown]

AE015989 produced in August 1970

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/info/bugchassisdating.php

[professor229]

Got a second opinion too from the good folks at JBUGS who said it was a 1971 motor "at birth" but these were mostly heavily modified through their life.... and mine is no exception to that.... I suspect that, like the GM products I am used to working on, that anti-pollution equipment was added to this motor in subsequent years..... so a 1970-1971 motor was very desirable....

I also watched a few videos on how to upgrade to an alternator and it was interesting to read the comments after.... predictable... some guys said it was super simple and others said there were a lot of plan B interventions and all the parts were not included in the Ebay kits they bought....

The older I get the more I have changed philosophies.... and now, "if it works don't fix it" is my primary philosophy....

Thanks for all the help... I think next spring the car will come out of its winter storage and the first change will be to install a Ford solenoid and see if it cures this situation......