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KTPhil 
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34009
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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 Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 9:57 am Post subject: Re: Dealer parts? |
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When I first started restoring Clemmie ('71 FI Fastback) back about 15 years ago I went to the local (Santa Clarita back then) dealer for fuel line. I knew not to expect many parts, but fuel line should be pretty common, right?
Ummm, no. 
They told me they hadn't carried any air cooled parts for more than 10 years. So that was about 1995, some 18 years after they sold them new in the USA.
Lesson learned. I came here to the Samba and find members and vendors linked here are the best sources.
Last edited by KTPhil on Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:21 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50347
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:36 am Post subject: Re: Dealer parts? |
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| 15-20 years ago there was a real dearth of fuel injection line. Dealers didn't stock it as the line on new cars easily lasted ten years, and most FLAPS only stocked low pressure fuel line that was short lived even when used at the low pressure required to feed carburetors. I remember ordering FI hose through a FLAPS for $11/ft, but not long afterwards found a source of European line for $6/meter, or about 1/6th as much. |
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Oil Phil-M
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2005
Posts: 541
Location: Vancouver, BC
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:59 pm Post subject: Re: Dealer parts? |
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The last time I was at a VW dealer was about 20 years ago and it was for those long flat bladed electrical connectors that fit inside the square plastic connection blocks as well as the female ends which lock into the fuse boxes so I could add a few relays. Not exactly T2 specific parts but they did have them.
Some time earlier I took my gas heater into the same place looking for some advice. Some crudgy old German guy showed me the location where to add the gas followed by where to throw the lit match and then walked away. I guess he was not that fond of working on those things. |
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Clatter
Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003
Posts: 7544
Location: Santa Cruz
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:32 pm Post subject: Re: Dealer parts? |
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| airschooled wrote: |
I refunded some clients for half a day's labor when we couldn't...
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And so goes it.
Who gets left holding the bag?
You either work for free,
or you're a "scammer"..
_________________
Bus Motor Build
What’s That Noise?!? |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16878
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 4:38 pm Post subject: Re: Dealer parts? |
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| Clatter wrote: |
| airschooled wrote: |
I refunded some clients for half a day's labor when we couldn't...
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And so goes it.
Who gets left holding the bag?
You either work for free,
or you're a "scammer".. |
or, you're like me who lays it out the way it is no matter what.
i'm not (nor would i expect anyone) working for free. unless a part i installed fell off, i'm not responsible for poor quality parts.
my job as a tech is to diagnose the issue in a reasonable amount of time and install QUALITY parts. when i can't offer quality parts i tell people the pitfalls of the job and what to expect.
the other thing i tell folks is they are more than welcome to do it themselves.... you know, share the misery.
it's sad that every single thing we do on this old junk takes a four day exercise in rebuilding or making a 'new' product work. doesn't matter if it's a gas cap seal or a piston. they all need work.
good on robbie for not charging. i use to do that. seeing i log all of my time (been pounded in my head since my dealer days) i looked at how much time i gave away each year when i went off on my own.
it only took a year for me to realize it wasn't sustainable. told a few people 'sorry your hobby is my profession. i still need to get paid' those that stick it out with me are happy in the end. those that don't can have their neighbors brothers kids uncles daughters boyfriend do it in the front yard. i just don't care enough to try and retain such people as clients
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21518
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:16 pm Post subject: Re: Dealer parts? |
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| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
| Clatter wrote: |
| airschooled wrote: |
I refunded some clients for half a day's labor when we couldn't...
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And so goes it.
Who gets left holding the bag?
You either work for free,
or you're a "scammer".. |
or, you're like me who lays it out the way it is no matter what.
i'm not (nor would i expect anyone) working for free. unless a part i installed fell off, i'm not responsible for poor quality parts.
my job as a tech is to diagnose the issue in a reasonable amount of time and install QUALITY parts. when i can't offer quality parts i tell people the pitfalls of the job and what to expect.
the other thing i tell folks is they are more than welcome to do it themselves.... you know, share the misery.
it's sad that every single thing we do on this old junk takes a four day exercise in rebuilding or making a 'new' product work. doesn't matter if it's a gas cap seal or a piston. they all need work.
good on robbie for not charging. i use to do that. seeing i log all of my time (been pounded in my head since my dealer days) i looked at how much time i gave away each year when i went off on my own.
it only took a year for me to realize it wasn't sustainable. told a few people 'sorry your hobby is my profession. i still need to get paid' those that stick it out with me are happy in the end. those that don't can have their neighbors brothers kids uncles daughters boyfriend do it in the front yard. i just don't care enough to try and retain such people as clients |
Yep....as you noted earlier....Cardone parts (among many brands) have been junk for a long time.
For a very short period ....they were pretty decent. Mind you....they were never what I would consider "remanufactured". I always thought from what I saw that they were just hot tanked....maybe painted...and a new rubber kit (strictly calipers I am speaking of).
Being that this was about 1981-82 ....the calipers that fit my cars (type 3, type 4...quite a few Toyotas....were probably not even 10 year old cores.
But hit the late 80's...into early 90's and they are junk. I think they they were just washing and refurbing and the slobs ran out of cores.
So you had TRW MC's crap out?.....new build stock?....or some kind of NOS?
TRW at one time had fantastic parts. A lot of original VW valves were either TRW or ATE. High quality.
By the middle 90's.....TRW...or various divisions of it...were getting traded around like a hooker on fleet night!
Sometime in the 80's/90's they had a joint operation in Brazil (Cofap was TRW of Brazil)....the Kelsey Hayes had a chunk of it for brake parts.....and now since maybe 2014 a big chunk of it (safety systems, airbags, sensors, other components) ....owned by Germany's ZF Friedrichshafen.....and they opened three new TRW plants in Brazil in the 2015-2017 range.
So what did teh MC's do? No bleed? Hold no pressure?
Ray |
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Alan Brase
Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2004
Posts: 4532
Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:28 pm Post subject: Re: Dealer parts? |
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| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
At one point in time.....Cardone.....had excellent parts. This started to cease....in my experience.....right in the mid 90's. |
Cardone = Car Done. they have been epic trash right along with Dorman, FEQ and anything URO.
anyway, parts are shit today. i just went thru 3, yes THREE master cylinders on a split window bus before i got one that wasn't trash....and those were TRW.
the hobby as we know it is circling the drain and leaving shit stains in the bowl as the velocity of the flush continues downward. 9 hours fucking around with a master cylinder. for what? to have it die in 18/20 months? the juice isn't worth the squeeze anymore folks |
This right here is why I'm almost to the point of never again buying new brake cylinders if I can buy kits. Then sending the cylinders out to get brass sleeved. White Post used to be the place, but I think there is a place in Minnesota that is good. And literally local to me.
Any drum braked vehicle is likely not getting daily driven so the brass sleeves are a real bonus.
Your "circling the drain" has to be Skills' best ever!
_________________
Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home |
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 9:38 pm Post subject: Re: Dealer parts? |
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| Alan Brase wrote: |
| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
At one point in time.....Cardone.....had excellent parts. This started to cease....in my experience.....right in the mid 90's. |
Cardone = Car Done. they have been epic trash right along with Dorman, FEQ and anything URO.
anyway, parts are shit today. i just went thru 3, yes THREE master cylinders on a split window bus before i got one that wasn't trash....and those were TRW.
the hobby as we know it is circling the drain and leaving shit stains in the bowl as the velocity of the flush continues downward. 9 hours fucking around with a master cylinder. for what? to have it die in 18/20 months? the juice isn't worth the squeeze anymore folks |
This right here is why I'm almost to the point of never again buying new brake cylinders if I can buy kits. Then sending the cylinders out to get brass sleeved. White Post used to be the place, but I think there is a place in Minnesota that is good. And literally local to me.
Any drum braked vehicle is likely not getting daily driven so the brass sleeves are a real bonus.
Your "circling the drain" has to be Skills' best ever! |
1971 factory master rebuilt at 75,000 miles was still going strong at 480,000 miles. All I did is honed on a Sunnen hone machine and used a factory rebuild kit. Back in those days (1976) it was common to rebuild them if they weren't too pitted. We were not fully in the throw away society like today.
_________________
“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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Alan Brase
Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2004
Posts: 4532
Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 9:44 pm Post subject: Re: Dealer parts? |
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I'm sure that would be pretty good. id of the bore is not real important I'd bet the lip seals can accomodate at least 1mm over size.
Besides you and me I bet there are not 50 people on theSamba that even know what you're talking about.
Shit, I used to resize rods, hone out old pistons for bigger pins. All when I was 19-20 years old. I had a great teacher. he taught me how to used every machine in the shop. Nice machine
_________________
Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home
Last edited by Alan Brase on Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:24 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16878
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 9:48 pm Post subject: Re: Dealer parts? |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
So you had TRW MC's crap out?.....new build stock?....or some kind of NOS?
TRW at one time had fantastic parts. A lot of original VW valves were either TRW or ATE. High quality.
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these were new, as in very recently made. not old TRW sitting on a shelf
first master was a rock hard pedal (think power brake car that just lost all vacuum assist) and if you stood on it with both feet until your legs were shaking like noodles the pedal would s-l-o-w-l-y sink and the bus would begin to stop
second master was mint....but if you did 3,4,5 rapid pumps it did the same thing as the one i mention above. it was like the valving was wrong or the piston was binding in the bore.
the first (rock hard) one couldn't be pressed in with a screwdriver on the bench.
yea, car-done and MAVAL.... oh my fucking God is MAVAL junk. we have been calling them 'rattle can rebuilds' for a long time
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21518
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 7:24 am Post subject: Re: Dealer parts? |
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| Alan Brase wrote: |
I'm sure that would be pretty good. id of the bore is not real important I'd bet the lip seals can accomodate at least 1mm over size.
Besides you and me I bet there are not 50 people on theSamba that even know what you're talking about.
Shit, I used to resize rods, hone out old pistons for bigger pins. All when I was 19-20 years old. I had a great teacher. he taught me how to used every machine in the shop. Nice machine |
NO.
Bore size is VERY important. The lip seals....or homogeneous U-cup.....of which there are about 6 major designs......each with different capabilities.....are very specific as to what they can use without "extruding" the seal body outward causing the ID to leak.
The factory cylinders.....ATE and FAG....used a mixture of square edge and chisel edge. These two styles give a blend of what is described as surface "film" breaking.....meaning less bypass and leakage.....and lomg life from distortion.
Contrasting with this you have the current range of Raybestos kits with a thin beveled edge that seals slightly better on rougher surfaces.....but has a shorter lifespan.....and is weaker in flex and is slightly LESS sensitive to bore oversize. (Sorry....had to edit as I misstated).
There are also distinct and precise differences in u-cup body cross section that work with specific gland sizes and shapes.
The factory ATE and FAG cylinders are allowed a range of 0.002" to 0.005" bore to piston tolerance MAXIMUM. Thats all their seals can handle. When you get over 0.005"......the stock chisel edge seal has to expand outward father to seal. This changes the angle of the molded chisel edge and defeats the film breaking ability. This allows fluid and pressure to bypass on hard braking......and.....causes the cross section ID to bulge.....causing wear.
Yes.....you can use a stock seal on a bore that is 0.005" to 0.007" oversized.....but it makes for weeping from the open end (whkxh promotes the rust ridge there) slow air infiltration.....and short life. Typically oversized bores last 20k miles at most.
This is precisely why Raybestos uses that crappy seql edge design ....in their rebuild kits.....because it seals a little more reliably on oversized, worn/rougher bores. They know these rebuild kits are going into old cylinders.
I will post a seal edge comparison shortly.
Also......brake MC bores NEVER came honed from the factory and should never get honed. They were LAPPED. The lapping hone is usually between 600 and 800 grit. There is a specific Rz and Ra rating in micro inches that each cup type can tolerate.
Ray
Last edited by raygreenwood on Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:23 am; edited 1 time in total |
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TDCTDI
Samba Advocatus Diaboli
Joined: August 31, 2013
Posts: 12854
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 7:36 am Post subject: Re: Dealer parts? |
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| airschooled wrote: |
I refunded some clients for half a day's labor when we couldn't get two master cylinders to bleed.
Robbie |
Yeah… fuck that.
If a customer brings me their part, it gets installed. If there is a problem with the part that they provided, that’s on them, they get to pay me again. If it doesn’t fit or doesn’t work, they also get to pay for the time it takes up on the lift, or for the time it takes to reassemble it enough to shove it out the door.
I just had to charge a customer twice for doing a cylinder head on a TDI because he sourced one online. The seller swapped cam caps from another cylinder head to make the sale, once torqued to spec, the cam was locked solid in the head.
_________________
Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.
GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!
An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.
Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it. |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16878
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:15 am Post subject: Re: Dealer parts? |
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| TDCTDI wrote: |
Yeah… fuck that |
i never let people bring me parts unless it's for the classic stuff. even then i call my insurance girl and get a rider for that job.
too many judges have shoved a verdict up a shop owners ass when a customer part fails. usually the ruling goes "you're the professional, you should know better"
with the classic stuff i usually don't mind working on it if the customer is reasonable. if i sense a hint of 'ever since ya...' in our conversation i decline the work.
i've come too far in life to lose it all on some chinese piece of shit part.
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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TDCTDI
Samba Advocatus Diaboli
Joined: August 31, 2013
Posts: 12854
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:44 am Post subject: Re: Dealer parts? |
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| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
i've come too far in life to lose it all on some chinese piece of shit part. |
You better close up shop now. 
_________________
Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.
GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!
An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.
Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it. |
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:57 am Post subject: Re: Dealer parts? |
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| TDCTDI wrote: |
| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
i've come too far in life to lose it all on some chinese piece of shit part. |
You better close up shop now. |
So I get a FU and an attitude from you if I hand you my NOS perfectly made German part to install it, or I get a smile and pay you to install a Chinese part that I will have to argue with you on when it breaks. Hmmmmm, Maybe I should let Don install it instead of you.
_________________
“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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TDCTDI
Samba Advocatus Diaboli
Joined: August 31, 2013
Posts: 12854
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:22 am Post subject: Re: Dealer parts? |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| TDCTDI wrote: |
| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
i've come too far in life to lose it all on some chinese piece of shit part. |
You better close up shop now. |
So I get a FU and an attitude from you if I hand you my NOS perfectly made German part to install it, or I get a smile and pay you to install a Chinese part that I will have to argue with you on when it breaks. Hmmmmm, Maybe I should let Don install it instead of you. |
If you bring me your part, I will install it, you assume all issues that may arise with it & can take it up with your supplier.
If I supply the part, then I will warranty it. If it fails, then I have to eat the labor & deal with the supplier.
Good fucking thing neither one of us has to deal with you.
_________________
Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.
GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!
An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.
Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it. |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21518
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:36 am Post subject: Re: Dealer parts? |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| TDCTDI wrote: |
| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
i've come too far in life to lose it all on some chinese piece of shit part. |
You better close up shop now. |
So I get a FU and an attitude from you if I hand you my NOS perfectly made German part to install it, or I get a smile and pay you to install a Chinese part that I will have to argue with you on when it breaks. Hmmmmm, Maybe I should let Don install it instead of you. |
Just remember....NOS master cylinders (not so much calipers but they have some issues too)....are junk.
NOS MC's are good for a cylinder and piston core and not much else. The failure rate on NOS MC's over 7-10 years old is about 90%. The seals harden and stay in fixed position.
Ray |
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:27 am Post subject: Re: Dealer parts? |
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| Quote: |
| Good fucking thing neither one of us has to deal with you. Laughing Rolling Eyes |
Today sure is your day backpedaling. Have a late night? Yes, you can rest assured, you'd never get close to my wallet. Now Don, I do trust him. I'd pay him extra just to be able to say he worked on a car for me.
Ray - I guess honing the old master must have been a mistake since it went 405,000 miles with no problems. Then I sold the bus and it went another 100,000 before a truck hit it while it was parked. Factory finish only lasted 75,000 miles. What did we do wrong to make honing it work so long? I mean we must have made a mistake by your explanation.
_________________
“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin
Last edited by SGKent on Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:35 am; edited 1 time in total |
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TDCTDI
Samba Advocatus Diaboli
Joined: August 31, 2013
Posts: 12854
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:31 am Post subject: Re: Dealer parts? |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Good fucking thing neither one of us has to deal with you. Laughing Rolling Eyes |
Today sure is your day backpedaling. |
I fail to see where I did any backpedaling.
_________________
Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.
GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!
An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.
Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it. |
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| Back to top |
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:42 am Post subject: Re: Dealer parts? |
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| TDCTDI wrote: |
| SGKent wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Good fucking thing neither one of us has to deal with you. Laughing Rolling Eyes |
Today sure is your day backpedaling. |
I fail to see where I did any backpedaling. |
I wouldn't expect you would. What I would expect with today being a work week day, and people beating the door down to get in your shop, you'd be more focused on making money than jousting with me. I never left a dime on the table when doing work for someone, but never thought of them as adversaries either. If someone brought me parts to use and there was a problem with them before using them, I spent time explaining the problem to the client. Then,and only then if they still wanted me to install those parts they signed a waiver or paid me to make the bad parts good - meaning if you give me a box of connecting rods to use, I will check each one and charge you for the time to do that in my bid to you. To me, if I get a dealer sealed box with a part in it, or you hand me that box there is very little difference to me what the risk is installing the part. It is still my responsibility to check that part before installing it. And you will get billed for my time unless you are getting cousin rates.
_________________
“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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