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John Moxon 
Samba Moderator
Joined: March 07, 2004
Posts: 13955
Location: Southampton U.K.
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Marcdeb
Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2019
Posts: 3033
Location: Vermont
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 Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:15 pm Post subject: Re: Karmanns & Bring-a-Trailer Auctions |
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I find it interesting that some modified Ghia's are bringing more money than nearly perfect originals with minimal miles. Seems illogical to me since modified cars have can be built every day of the week. I get that some of these cars have a lot of money invested, but finding a rare original low mileage car is like finding a needle in a haystack. Right now the record price for a Ghia on Bat, $65,000, is a heavily modified convertible. Everybody's different, I get that these cars have a following and will appeal to certain people. What I don't understand is that those who are purists, and prefer originality don't seem to be bidding equally high.
The Karmann Ghia is not alone in this trend. Today a new record was set on BAT for a Volvo P1800S. A car that would have been built in the Karmann Factory if not for VWs objections. In 7 years of BAT history only one Volvo P1800 had exceeded $52,000. Today a modified P1800 sold for $110,000. The final 40 minutes of the auction brought a flurry of bids.
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1963-volvo-p1800-7/
I guess tastefully modified cars really seem to interest bidders with deep pockets.
_________________
Marc
68 Karmann Ghia Cabrio Autostick
71 Karmann Ghia Cabrio
Previously Owned:
2011 VW EOS Hard Top Conv
2008 Saab 9-3 2.0T Conv
2003 Saab 9-3 SE Conv
2001 Saab 9-3 Conv
1998 BMW 3 Series Conv
1997 Saab 900 Conv
1997 Mazda Miata
68 Ghia Vert Survivor with 22,350 miles: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=768107&highlight=
71 Ghia Vert Restoration: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=726710&postorder=asc |
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Braukuche
Samba Member
Joined: September 03, 2004
Posts: 11004
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 5:01 pm Post subject: Re: Karmanns & Bring-a-Trailer Auctions |
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| Marcdeb wrote: |
I find it interesting that some modified Ghia's are bringing more money than nearly perfect originals with minimal miles. Seems illogical to me since modified cars have can be built every day of the week. I get that some of these cars have a lot of money invested, but finding a rare original low mileage car is like finding a needle in a haystack. Right now the record price for a Ghia on Bat, $65,000, is a heavily modified convertible. Everybody's different, I get that these cars have a following and will appeal to certain people. What I don't understand is that those who are purists, and prefer originality don't seem to be bidding equally high.
The Karmann Ghia is not alone in this trend. Today a new record was set on BAT for a Volvo P1800S. A car that would have been built in the Karmann Factory if not for VWs objections. In 7 years of BAT history only one Volvo P1800 had exceeded $52,000. Today a modified P1800 sold for $110,000. The final 40 minutes of the auction brought a flurry of bids.
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1963-volvo-p1800-7/
I guess tastefully modified cars really seem to interest bidders with deep pockets. |
A lowered big engined and color changed nice but far from exemplary 15 window bus just sold for over $120k. Thats a lot more than any stock 15 I’ve see sell for unless it was a barndoor.
I’ve been in the Porsche 356 world for a while and it’s like opposite world.
Those guys are into arguments over plating issues on bolt heads and have the money to pay for correct restorations that are so common that they are numbing. But they are also into performance. Nearly all of them run big bore kits or go from 60hp normal spec engines to at least 75hp S or C spec and many change out heads and carbs to SC spec engines. These are all old slow cars compared to what’s out there now and people want to keep up with traffic.
This doesn’t mean you can’t do an aesthetically correct restoration, I think that will happen eventually to early Ghias but that time is not now. Now is a new audience that likes the way the cars look but want something that performs well on the street. Or has a more attractive interior than the mundane late terrors. They aren’t collectors who want to putz around in their 36 and 40hp numbers matching cars on side streets or drive their cars off flatbeds onto the lawn at car shows. Theres a few maybe but I don’t think enough to create a large enough market to fuel an industry around it unlike with Porsche 356s.
_________________
Go Reds! Smash state!
Retirement is here!
1956 Ghia
1959 SO-23 Westfalia
1960 double cab
1960 Baja Bug
1963 stretched double cab
1962 Golde sunroof Ghia
1963 356 B coupe
1963 Notchback
1967 21 window less rusty now |
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Braukuche
Samba Member
Joined: September 03, 2004
Posts: 11004
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 5:08 pm Post subject: Re: Karmanns & Bring-a-Trailer Auctions |
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| kingkarmann wrote: |
| John Moxon wrote: |
| kingkarmann wrote: |
Word is a heavily modified 60's Ghia will be coming to BAT soon.
Should be interesting |
Sure to polarise opinion.  |
The seller has posted a teaser on FB "Karmann Ghia Fan Club" group in case anyone wants a peek. |
Looks like a typical 90s style Ghia. The type that used to be listed all day long on the Samba for around $10k nice the velour seat covers wore down so would the price.
I’m curious to see how the BAT crowd reacts. Hopefully negatively so this doesn’t become a new/old trend.
_________________
Go Reds! Smash state!
Retirement is here!
1956 Ghia
1959 SO-23 Westfalia
1960 double cab
1960 Baja Bug
1963 stretched double cab
1962 Golde sunroof Ghia
1963 356 B coupe
1963 Notchback
1967 21 window less rusty now |
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kingkarmann
Samba Member
Joined: November 05, 2003
Posts: 4111
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blue72beetle
Samba Member
Joined: April 23, 2008
Posts: 846
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
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| Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:35 pm Post subject: Re: Karmanns & Bring-a-Trailer Auctions |
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Earlier decklid that originally had a larger Karmann Ghia script, that's why there's extra holes in it.
_________________
-Andy-
-1970 Ghia-
-1971 Bus 1776 Microsquirt EFI- |
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Marcdeb
Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2019
Posts: 3033
Location: Vermont
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| Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:46 pm Post subject: Re: Karmanns & Bring-a-Trailer Auctions |
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Looks like it could be a nice car if it was put back to original. Why would anybody put 68/69 reflectors on a 64? Or on any year for that matter? Those wheels are way too much. My guess is it will do quite well because a lot of BAT bidders seem to go for modified/altered cars.
_________________
Marc
68 Karmann Ghia Cabrio Autostick
71 Karmann Ghia Cabrio
Previously Owned:
2011 VW EOS Hard Top Conv
2008 Saab 9-3 2.0T Conv
2003 Saab 9-3 SE Conv
2001 Saab 9-3 Conv
1998 BMW 3 Series Conv
1997 Saab 900 Conv
1997 Mazda Miata
68 Ghia Vert Survivor with 22,350 miles: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=768107&highlight=
71 Ghia Vert Restoration: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=726710&postorder=asc |
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Rome
Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2004
Posts: 9651
Location: Pearl River, NY
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| Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:09 pm Post subject: Re: Karmanns & Bring-a-Trailer Auctions |
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Very nice overall; get in and go. It has the details of a mid-model year '64, with the front blinker style, perforated dash pad for the radio speaker vs the separate grill, and the small-rectangle depressions in the engine surround panels. It would just need all-black wheels and trim rings/thin-slot beauty rings to be visually accurate. And that would be easy to do for the discerning new owner if he/she cared.
Those '68/'69 round reflectors in the rear quarter panels are a black eye for the otherwise clean '64 panels. Too bad that by removing them, you'd have a small hole which would need to be covered. Even if you fit a flat metal or aluminum snap-in plug, you'd have to find the exact matching paint color to paint them. |
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rcooled
Samba Member
Joined: September 20, 2008
Posts: 2506
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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| Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 9:51 pm Post subject: Re: Karmanns & Bring-a-Trailer Auctions |
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| Marcdeb wrote: |
| Looks like it could be a nice car if it was put back to original. |
A hurry-up paint job (body & pan), cheezy carpet, ugly door panels & hinge covers, poor-quality canvas top (rear window heat-seamed in place, not stitched in), missing parts, and lax attention to small details. All signs that this car is just a quick flip 
Not that there's anything wrong with that...
_________________
'63 Ragtop (current)
'65 Ghia coupe (totaled)
'67 Ghia convertible (current)
'69.5 Ghia convertible and
'62, '63, '65, '69 Bugs (all long gone) |
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Marcdeb
Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2019
Posts: 3033
Location: Vermont
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:59 am Post subject: Re: Karmanns & Bring-a-Trailer Auctions |
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Every time I go through the pictures, I see more. Lots of these are easily resolved, and some are just the owners choices. The car has an otherwise nice appearance but if I was looking to buy I would wonder what's under the paint and what other issues might have been treated in a similar fashion. Hopefully lots more pictures are coming. I still think it will sell for a more than its worth.
Interior in general looks ok, but nothing I would want.
No rubber seal around the doors.
No rubber seals on the hinge pillars.
Can't tell for sure but, looks like head light seals are missing.
No bumper bracket covers.
Engine compartment seal goes all the way around.
Incorrect Engine lid or script, leaving open holes in lid.
Back seat bottom appears to be from a later model.
Appears to be no way to attach boot around back of top??
Comes with Tonneau cover but I don't see any way to install it??
Black wipers.
Red wheels.
Trim around windshield left off.
No front or rear windlace.
Missing chrome trim at forward top of hinge covers.
No rubber bumpers for glove box door.
Plastic reproduction glove box.
Carpet has holes for seat belts, but no seat belts.
No vinyl covers over sides of back seat.
Missing engine seal.
_________________
Marc
68 Karmann Ghia Cabrio Autostick
71 Karmann Ghia Cabrio
Previously Owned:
2011 VW EOS Hard Top Conv
2008 Saab 9-3 2.0T Conv
2003 Saab 9-3 SE Conv
2001 Saab 9-3 Conv
1998 BMW 3 Series Conv
1997 Saab 900 Conv
1997 Mazda Miata
68 Ghia Vert Survivor with 22,350 miles: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=768107&highlight=
71 Ghia Vert Restoration: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=726710&postorder=asc |
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kingkarmann
Samba Member
Joined: November 05, 2003
Posts: 4111
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:52 am Post subject: Re: Karmanns & Bring-a-Trailer Auctions |
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^^^^^
Oh but it does have an engine seal. It's installed around the entire circumference. It's really sealed 
_________________
"Depression is a malfunction of the instrument we use to determine reality.”
Mike Gerson
What is your "Bespoke Reality"? |
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Marcdeb
Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2019
Posts: 3033
Location: Vermont
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:39 am Post subject: Re: Karmanns & Bring-a-Trailer Auctions |
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| kingkarmann wrote: |
^^^^^
Oh but it does have an engine seal. It's installed around the entire circumference. It's really sealed |
Maybe they thought the complete engine lid seal would negate the need for the engine surround seal??
Hopefully the new owner will give it a bit better care. It looks like it deserves it.
_________________
Marc
68 Karmann Ghia Cabrio Autostick
71 Karmann Ghia Cabrio
Previously Owned:
2011 VW EOS Hard Top Conv
2008 Saab 9-3 2.0T Conv
2003 Saab 9-3 SE Conv
2001 Saab 9-3 Conv
1998 BMW 3 Series Conv
1997 Saab 900 Conv
1997 Mazda Miata
68 Ghia Vert Survivor with 22,350 miles: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=768107&highlight=
71 Ghia Vert Restoration: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=726710&postorder=asc |
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Braukuche
Samba Member
Joined: September 03, 2004
Posts: 11004
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:02 am Post subject: Re: Karmanns & Bring-a-Trailer Auctions |
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| rcooled wrote: |
| Marcdeb wrote: |
| Looks like it could be a nice car if it was put back to original. |
A hurry-up paint job (body & pan), cheezy carpet, ugly door panels & hinge covers, poor-quality canvas top (rear window heat-seamed in place, not stitched in), missing parts, and lax attention to small details. All signs that this car is just a quick flip
Not that there's anything wrong with that... |
That’s my sense too. It’s obviously done by a non VW generic shop that probably picked it up cheap did it cheap and is trying to flip it for strong money.
There’s a subset of the restoration industry that moves from make to another depending on what is just getting hot on the market. They buy cars while they are still cheap and do quick and dirty “restorations” until they flood the market with mediocre turds to the point people get picky and their junk no longer sells high enough to make a profit and they move on to the next victim.
That’s why I think for those of us who love these cars to call out this shoddy workmanship in order to up the game by educating buyers.
_________________
Go Reds! Smash state!
Retirement is here!
1956 Ghia
1959 SO-23 Westfalia
1960 double cab
1960 Baja Bug
1963 stretched double cab
1962 Golde sunroof Ghia
1963 356 B coupe
1963 Notchback
1967 21 window less rusty now |
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wheel607
Samba Member
Joined: May 30, 2004
Posts: 1847
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:59 am Post subject: Re: Karmanns & Bring-a-Trailer Auctions |
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| Braukuche wrote: |
| rcooled wrote: |
| Marcdeb wrote: |
| Looks like it could be a nice car if it was put back to original. |
A hurry-up paint job (body & pan), cheezy carpet, ugly door panels & hinge covers, poor-quality canvas top (rear window heat-seamed in place, not stitched in), missing parts, and lax attention to small details. All signs that this car is just a quick flip
Not that there's anything wrong with that... |
That’s my sense too. It’s obviously done by a non VW generic shop that probably picked it up cheap did it cheap and is trying to flip it for strong money.
There’s a subset of the restoration industry that moves from make to another depending on what is just getting hot on the market. They buy cars while they are still cheap and do quick and dirty “restorations” until they flood the market with mediocre turds to the point people get picky and their junk no longer sells high enough to make a profit and they move on to the next victim.
That’s why I think for those of us who love these cars to call out this shoddy workmanship in order to up the game by educating buyers. |
So when will this happen to BEVERLY HILLS..............been waiting for the other shoe to finally drop. Selling TURDS for years! Now resorting to selling VWs and other vehicles. Used to be all Porsche. |
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kingkarmann
Samba Member
Joined: November 05, 2003
Posts: 4111
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 6:46 am Post subject: Re: Karmanns & Bring-a-Trailer Auctions |
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https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1964-volkswagen-karmann-ghia-convertible-8/
Has the BAT 64 had an alleged nose job?
I recall when Sophia was media blasted the panel seals were removed and ended up not being replaced. She also need a panel replacement just under the spare. I believe that replacement part did not have the drain hole.
It should almost be a requirement for the seller to provide an opening statement when the car goes live, a bio if you will.
This auction may likely go off the rails if the seller can't provide some history.
This one is 57 years old. It may have been a former Baja competitor for all they know. The way Sophia looked back then when the paint was stripped convinced me that was her previous occupation!
_________________
"Depression is a malfunction of the instrument we use to determine reality.”
Mike Gerson
What is your "Bespoke Reality"? |
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Braukuche
Samba Member
Joined: September 03, 2004
Posts: 11004
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:13 am Post subject: Re: Karmanns & Bring-a-Trailer Auctions |
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I wonder if he is consciously taking vague pictures of the inside nose or is trying to hide something. From the few pix posted I don’t see the tell tale signs of front end damage which is distortion of the inner fender panels or the bumper brackets. The missing rubber is an indication but it could also have been rot there that was cut out when they replaced the spare tire well? On a nose replacement the seam is usually going to be in the inside front wheel well and not visible from the trunk, so he would need to post shots from there.
I agree with KingK it’s not a deal breaker, but it does affect value and unhit car is always going to be worth more than a hit car.
I know it was mentioned but the deck lid replacement is also an indication of the lack of detail and even concern over final product. The person who built it could have easily bought the early emblem and used the existing holes vs drilling three new ones and leaving the old holes showing! Who does that other than a flipper looking to maximize their investment?
_________________
Go Reds! Smash state!
Retirement is here!
1956 Ghia
1959 SO-23 Westfalia
1960 double cab
1960 Baja Bug
1963 stretched double cab
1962 Golde sunroof Ghia
1963 356 B coupe
1963 Notchback
1967 21 window less rusty now |
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Marcdeb
Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2019
Posts: 3033
Location: Vermont
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:27 pm Post subject: Re: Karmanns & Bring-a-Trailer Auctions |
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The seller says he's not a VW expert. He's a 356 restorer! So don't 356s have rubber seals around the engine? Don't they have rubber seals on the doors? Don't they have windlace? Don't they remove parts before painting them? Do Porsche have fuel filters dangling over the engine? Oh and do Porsche have painted wheel weights? He knows the car's history going back 33 years but has not addressed the front nose questions.
I think it's a good solid car that can easily be made into a beautiful correct car, but he's casting unnecessary doubt. He should just spell it out and offer up all the facts about the car.
_________________
Marc
68 Karmann Ghia Cabrio Autostick
71 Karmann Ghia Cabrio
Previously Owned:
2011 VW EOS Hard Top Conv
2008 Saab 9-3 2.0T Conv
2003 Saab 9-3 SE Conv
2001 Saab 9-3 Conv
1998 BMW 3 Series Conv
1997 Saab 900 Conv
1997 Mazda Miata
68 Ghia Vert Survivor with 22,350 miles: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=768107&highlight=
71 Ghia Vert Restoration: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=726710&postorder=asc |
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Braukuche
Samba Member
Joined: September 03, 2004
Posts: 11004
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 5:36 pm Post subject: Re: Karmanns & Bring-a-Trailer Auctions |
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| Marcdeb wrote: |
The seller says he's not a VW expert. He's a 356 restorer! So don't 356s have rubber seals around the engine? Don't they have rubber seals on the doors? Don't they have windlace? Don't they remove parts before painting them? Do Porsche have fuel filters dangling over the engine? Oh and do Porsche have painted wheel weights? He knows the car's history going back 33 years but has not addressed the front nose questions.
I think it's a good solid car that can easily be made into a beautiful correct car, but he's casting unnecessary doubt. He should just spell it out and offer up all the facts about the car. |
I detect a certain amount of dismissiveness toward Ghias by the seller. Since when is mounting a decklid with extra emblem holes a “trivial” issue? In the 356 world you’ll get slammed for using a skim of bondo let alone leaving random holes in the bodywork.
_________________
Go Reds! Smash state!
Retirement is here!
1956 Ghia
1959 SO-23 Westfalia
1960 double cab
1960 Baja Bug
1963 stretched double cab
1962 Golde sunroof Ghia
1963 356 B coupe
1963 Notchback
1967 21 window less rusty now |
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Marcdeb
Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2019
Posts: 3033
Location: Vermont
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:01 pm Post subject: Re: Karmanns & Bring-a-Trailer Auctions |
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| Braukuche wrote: |
| Marcdeb wrote: |
The seller says he's not a VW expert. He's a 356 restorer! So don't 356s have rubber seals around the engine? Don't they have rubber seals on the doors? Don't they have windlace? Don't they remove parts before painting them? Do Porsche have fuel filters dangling over the engine? Oh and do Porsche have painted wheel weights? He knows the car's history going back 33 years but has not addressed the front nose questions.
I think it's a good solid car that can easily be made into a beautiful correct car, but he's casting unnecessary doubt. He should just spell it out and offer up all the facts about the car. |
I detect a certain amount of dismissiveness toward Ghias by the seller. Since when is mounting a decklid with extra emblem holes a “trivial” issue? In the 356 world you’ll get slammed for using a skim of bondo let alone leaving random holes in the bodywork. |
His list of comments is not helping the auction at all. I like the car but I almost get the feeling he doesn't. He seems to be going out of his to degrade it. The front nose looks like it was well repaired so he should want to take credit for it - show us the pictures!
_________________
Marc
68 Karmann Ghia Cabrio Autostick
71 Karmann Ghia Cabrio
Previously Owned:
2011 VW EOS Hard Top Conv
2008 Saab 9-3 2.0T Conv
2003 Saab 9-3 SE Conv
2001 Saab 9-3 Conv
1998 BMW 3 Series Conv
1997 Saab 900 Conv
1997 Mazda Miata
68 Ghia Vert Survivor with 22,350 miles: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=768107&highlight=
71 Ghia Vert Restoration: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=726710&postorder=asc
Last edited by Marcdeb on Thu Sep 16, 2021 11:58 am; edited 2 times in total |
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rcooled
Samba Member
Joined: September 20, 2008
Posts: 2506
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 11:03 am Post subject: Re: Karmanns & Bring-a-Trailer Auctions |
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| Marcdeb wrote: |
| The seller says he's not a VW expert. He's a 356 restorer! |
I can only imagine what his 356 "restorations" must look like. With vintage Porsche prices being what they are these days, he'd never get away with with a half-assed job like this. The purists in the 356 community would instantly rip a car like this to shreds if it were put up on BaT
_________________
'63 Ragtop (current)
'65 Ghia coupe (totaled)
'67 Ghia convertible (current)
'69.5 Ghia convertible and
'62, '63, '65, '69 Bugs (all long gone) |
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