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Towing A Trailer: Why Don't These Buggies Flip Over Backward?
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nicholastanguma
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 4:46 am    Post subject: Towing A Trailer: Why Don't These Buggies Flip Over Backward? Reply with quote

Buggies are short wheelbase vehicles; even those built on full length pans are still pretty short. And of course having engines at the rear of the vehicle also means huge weight bias toward the back. Yet clearly these buggies are towing some serious weight behind them.

How are they able to do this without flipping over backward?

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Pruneman99
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:04 am    Post subject: Re: Towing A Trailer: Why Don't These Buggies Flip Over Backward? Reply with quote

Because, gravity.

In all seriousness, all you need is to have the rolling resistance of the trailer less than all the weight forward of the rear axle. So unless you really dropped some power into it, the trailer would just roll forward before you lift the buggy up.
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oprn
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:08 am    Post subject: Re: Towing A Trailer: Why Don't These Buggies Flip Over Backward? Reply with quote

There should not be that much weight on the hitch of the trailer. If there is then you have better look at how the trailer is loaded and re-balance your load. On all the trailers I pull with my Buggy I can lift the hitch with one hand. Also when pulling the hitch ball is at or below the center of gravity of the tow vehicle which should not translate into an upward force on the front of the tow vehicle.

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nicholastanguma
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Towing A Trailer: Why Don't These Buggies Flip Over Backward? Reply with quote

Pruneman99 wrote:
Because, gravity.

In all seriousness, all you need is to have the rolling resistance of the trailer less than all the weight forward of the rear axle. So unless you really dropped some power into it, the trailer would just roll forward before you lift the buggy up.


Thank you.
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nicholastanguma
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Towing A Trailer: Why Don't These Buggies Flip Over Backward? Reply with quote

oprn wrote:
There should not be that much weight on the hitch of the trailer. If there is then you have better look at how the trailer is loaded and re-balance your load. On all the trailers I pull with my Buggy I can lift the hitch with one hand. Also when pulling the hitch ball is at or below the center of gravity of the tow vehicle which should not translate into an upward force on the front of the tow vehicle.

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Helpful. Thanx for taking the time to post pics!
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Busstom
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Towing A Trailer: Why Don't These Buggies Flip Over Backward? Reply with quote

Research "tongue weight"
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nicholastanguma
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Towing A Trailer: Why Don't These Buggies Flip Over Backward? Reply with quote

Busstom wrote:
Research "tongue weight"



Thank you, I will.
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MrGoodtunes
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:00 am    Post subject: Re: Towing A Trailer: Why Don't These Buggies Flip Over Backward? Reply with quote

Flipping over backward was not a problem for my 1,300 mile tow trip pulling a Beetle behind my 70" short wheelbase buggy; but, I was regularly struggling to keep it from going into a jack-knife, especially driving downhill on a curve.

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You can just barely see the blue metalflake fenders of my buggy towing the Beetle. The tail was wagging the dog all the way. When going downhill, I could feel the push from behind; and it was trying to move my buggy's rear to the outside while also making me go faster when I was already going too fast. But putting on brakes would've surely resulted in disaster. So I gave all the gas pedal would give to that old 40-horse and she'd pull out of the jacknife. Couldn't apply brakes until thru the curve into a straight away, and even then the trailing load would try to push buggy's rear right, left, right, etc. Got the trip done successfully, but will never consider doing such ever again.
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nicholastanguma
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 12:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Towing A Trailer: Why Don't These Buggies Flip Over Backward? Reply with quote

MrGoodtunes wrote:
Flipping over backward was not a problem for my 1,300 mile tow trip pulling a Beetle behind my 70" short wheelbase buggy; but, I was regularly struggling to keep it from going into a jack-knife, especially driving downhill on a curve.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

You can just barely see the blue metalflake fenders of my buggy towing the Beetle. The tail was wagging the dog all the way. When going downhill, I could feel the push from behind; and it was trying to move my buggy's rear to the outside while also making me go faster when I was already going too fast. But putting on brakes would've surely resulted in disaster. So I gave all the gas pedal would give to that old 40-horse and she'd pull out of the jacknife. Couldn't apply brakes until thru the curve into a straight away, and even then the trailing load would try to push buggy's rear right, left, right, etc. Got the trip done successfully, but will never consider doing such ever again.



Wow, terrifying! Shocked But very helpful to me that you've survived to tell the tale, thanks.

Out of curiosity, would a longer wheelbase on your buggy have cured the jacknifing issue? Say, a Manxter 2+2 wheelbase, for instance?
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MrGoodtunes
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 12:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Towing A Trailer: Why Don't These Buggies Flip Over Backward? Reply with quote

nicholastanguma wrote:
... would a longer wheelbase on your buggy have cured the jacknifing issue? Say, a Manxter 2+2 wheelbase, for instance?


I'll let someone more knowledgeable tackle that question, but I can't see it changing the dynamics very much. Buggy had big wide rear tires but weigh'd only 1200 lbs, Beetle was loaded with my wife's heavy chinaware, my tools, and everything we own'd including 2 cats! The Buggy+Beetle combo was our moving van, got us outa Detroit and down to South Florida in 1980.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Towing A Trailer: Why Don't These Buggies Flip Over Backward? Reply with quote

Two things going on there.

First is that the vehicle doing the towing should not be that much lighter than the one being towed. Second is slop in the towing system. The tow bar had too much looseness in it's joints. I suspect the Beetle's steering was badly worn too and the two combined worked together to produce an oscillation that was self feeding/propagating. Unless I miss my guess it happened in a specific speed range and was ok below that. Feels like the vehicle being towed just took over steering the whole issue!

Been there done that! Shocked You need change your underwear when you get home!
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Towing A Trailer: Why Don't These Buggies Flip Over Backward? Reply with quote

As far as wheel base making a towing duo stable or unstable the tow vehicle's wheel base makes very little difference. The wheel base of the trailer makes a HUGE difference. A short coupled trailer is a total nightmare on the road! Also a tail heavy trailer is horrible. The C of G of the trailer should be just a bit ahead of the axle(s). Doesn't need to be much and can even be right on but when it is rear biased the trailer wags it's tail like a dog!

With 500 gallons of water on this trailer is really too heavy for the Buggy but there is very little tongue weight and it has a long wheel base. Also I mostly travel across the fields and up the back roads to water my garden so speeds are low.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 7:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Towing A Trailer: Why Don't These Buggies Flip Over Backward? Reply with quote

I worked at a dune buggy and VW sedan rental agency as mechanic in 1974-1975. We always towed a dune buggy or a sedan with one of the dune buggies, even on the freeways 2 hours to smaller towns where "the boss" decided we needed to have a couple of rental vehicles there for tourists to rent.

Rental agency was based in Scottsdale, AZ and the "satellite" stations I towed vehicles to were in Payson and Prescott.
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