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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16852
Location: sticksville, ct.
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 Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 12:21 pm Post subject: Re: Dealer parts? |
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| TDCTDI wrote: |
You better close up shop now.  |
i say that every day i put the key in the door and flip the compressor on
guess i just like the abuse.
when i was at the dealer every monday morning i would sing the line from the muppet show:
"why do we always come here, I guess we'll never know.....it's like some kind of torture to have to watch the show"
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| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21507
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 12:31 pm Post subject: Re: Dealer parts? |
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| SGKent wrote: |
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| Good fucking thing neither one of us has to deal with you. Laughing Rolling Eyes |
Today sure is your day backpedaling. Have a late night? Yes, you can rest assured, you'd never get close to my wallet. Now Don, I do trust him. I'd pay him extra just to be able to say he worked on a car for me.
Ray - I guess honing the old master must have been a mistake since it went 405,000 miles with no problems. Then I sold the bus and it went another 100,000 before a truck hit it while it was parked. Factory finish only lasted 75,000 miles. What did we do wrong to make honing it work so long? I mean we must have made a mistake by your explanation. |
Good for you! And plenty of people get away with it over the years....and just as many more do not.
EPDM seals are NOT piston rings. They neither require or respond well to a "crosshatch" pattern. They need just enough tooth to hold brake fluid as lubricant. That film gets scraped off by the film breaking action of the cup lip.
You get a few microns too much tooth.....and its a short lifespan. Also.....get a thousandth or so too much bore to piston tolerance.....and its either no seal or short life.
I see more people rebuilding that get poor results than excellent results....because they dont know the roughness specs required by the cups .....or pay attention to bore tolerance. They just run on down to the FLAPS and plunk down their $15 on a cheap two leg brake hone with 280 to 360 grit stones.....and whang it in and out of the bore until it looks smooth! ......clean...lube with brake fluid and slap it together with a kit.
Sometimes it works and lasts a long or short time. Sometimes you never got as good of a pedal or bleed. The lack of published specs and variable results are one of the main reasons....coupled with cheap manufacturing....why rebuilding MCs and slaves for home mechanics have largely gone by the wayside.
Lapping....IS a honing process....but at a finer grit and different pattern and speed.
By the way....good brake shops back in the day.....honed to oversize.....then used a 600 grit lqpping tool.....or you can make one from shop roll. Then put in oversized pistons. Both ATE and FAG made oversized piston and cup sets. I still have part number lists for some of those.
Ray |
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SGKent 
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:25 pm Post subject: Re: Dealer parts? |
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ray - have you ever used a Sunnen hone? The hatch can go down to a mirror finish if one chooses a stone that fine. I'd choose that over sand paper any day.
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“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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TDCTDI
Samba Advocatus Diaboli
Joined: August 31, 2013
Posts: 12846
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:13 pm Post subject: Re: Dealer parts? |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| ….but never thought of them as adversaries either. |
There is nothing adversarial about being upfront with the customer about your policy.
Markup on parts is part of business. I will install a customer’s part/s as long as they realize that I will not warranty a damn thing about the job.
| SGKent wrote: |
If someone brought me parts to use and there was a problem with them before using them, I spent time explaining the problem to the client. Then,and only then if they still wanted me to install those parts they signed a waiver or paid me to make the bad parts good - meaning if you give me a box of connecting rods to use, I will check each one and charge you for the time to do that in my bid to you.
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Uhh, this is effectively the exact same policy.
| SGKent wrote: |
To me, if I get a dealer sealed box with a part in it, or you hand me that box there is very little difference to me what the risk is installing the part. It is still my responsibility to check that part before installing it. And you will get billed for my time unless you are getting cousin rates. |
Think of the markup on parts as the income to pay for the shop/insurance/phones/lights. The labor rate pays for the labor, taxes, & the rest of the shit.
In an apples to apples comparison, it is the same, except that the markup on parts is also part of what pays the bills, if said customer doesn’t see the value in paying that markup, then I am not going to warranty it because it technically hasn’t paid the bills, if they don’t like it, I’ll work on something else that does.
HOWEVER! I primarily work on newer cars. Parts for these, from a dealer, tend to be pretty expensive. To do the job right, and to have the least amount of issues, I source as much as I can, from the dealer, or from companies that sell those factory parts with the numbers ground off. Let’s go with a more recent example, say an alternator, from the dealer, costs $580.
Then, a customer, wanting to save a few bucks, sourced a “Reliant” brand from the local FLAPS for $130, I’m the fucking crook. I told them my policy, they agreed. I installed three NFG “Reliant” alternators, at $240 each, before they told me to get the dealer one.
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Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.
GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!
An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.
Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it. |
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Alan Brase
Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2004
Posts: 4532
Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
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| Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:57 pm Post subject: Re: Dealer parts? |
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[quote="raygreenwood"]
| Alan Brase wrote: |
I'm sure that would be pretty good. id of the bore is not real important I'd bet the lip seals can accomodate at least 1mm over size.
.../quote]
NO.
Bore size is VERY important. The lip seals....or homogeneous U-cup.....of which there are about 6 major designs......each with different capabilities.....are very specific as to what they can use without "extruding" the seal body outward causing the ID to leak.
The factory cylinders.....ATE and FAG....used a mixture of square edge and chisel edge. These two styles give a blend of what is described as surface "film" breaking.....meaning less bypass and leakage.....and lomg life from distortion. ..There is a specific Rz and Ra rating in micro inches that each cup type can tolerate.
Ray |
Well I stand corrected.
I admit, I was pretty sleepy when I wrote that and was mostly thinking about the bevel seals in wheel cylinders and not the square edge seals in the piston of the master cylinder.
Please do tell us what Rz and Ra in micro inches are?
More relevant LAPPING vs. HONING?
Ray you constantly amaze me with your deep knowledge on some subjects. How did you come by this hydraulic knowledge? Industry? Is it in SAE papers?
When you say something It certainly gets my attention.
Sounds like engineering to me. Most of my knowledge is gleaned from working in a few shops with old time mechanics and machinists and then from making my own mistakes on my own cars. So I don't have the practical feed back that a career line mechanic would have since he is seeing literally hundred of times the situations that I do.
My own little brother, was a Porsche Audi German car mechanic at the dealer in Omaha and an independent shop for a couple decades. These guys really see which parts work and which do not.
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Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home
Last edited by Alan Brase on Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:50 am; edited 1 time in total |
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:08 pm Post subject: Re: Dealer parts? |
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| Quote: |
| HOWEVER! I primarily work on newer cars. Parts for these, from a dealer, tend to be pretty expensive. To do the job right, and to have the least amount of issues, I source as much as I can, from the dealer, or from companies that sell those factory parts with the numbers ground off. Let’s go with a more recent example, say an alternator, from the dealer, costs $580. |
Yes, I understand, newer cars are a lot different in that new factory parts are more commonly available. .
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“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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