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90weekender Samba Member
Joined: February 17, 2015 Posts: 183
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Posted: Mon Aug 30, 2021 9:49 am Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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Installed these wiring fixes yesterday but it wont start...can anyone tell me if did something to screw up the electrical system? I fear the computer is fried.
I disconnected the positive battery terminal and then installed:
Hall sensor harness (3 pin connector)
Ground from the hall sensor harness to drivers side head bolt (brown wire)
Power steering connector at the switch (90 degree female connector next to PS pump)
I've got zero spark from the coil. Yet the battery is strong and all the accessories are energized when I turn the key. Engine has 750 miles on the rebuild, but is a little low on torque under 2k rpm.
Last thing....my hall sender connector(male side integrated into the distributor) is very loose in the vertical dimension. Moves maybe 1/4" total up and down if I wiggle it with my fingers. |
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4Gears4Tires Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2018 Posts: 2982 Location: MD
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Posted: Mon Aug 30, 2021 9:55 am Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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Won't start is not descriptive enough. To clarify, the starter is engaged and it's turning over, right?
I would verify if the spark plugs are wet after cranking or not. That way you can start from a no spark / no fuel situation.
No spark situations usually mean the computer isn't seeing timing data, IME. And considering you switched around wires / replaced the hall sender connector previously, I would start there. It ran before you started replacing connectors, right? _________________ '87 Syncro
Ferric Oxyhydroxide Superleggera Edition |
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AceTaylor Samba Member
Joined: July 15, 2009 Posts: 137 Location: PERKASIE, PA
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Posted: Mon Aug 30, 2021 10:21 am Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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Just a note. When you rewired the hall sensor pigtail, did you match the color of the wire? When I checked my new pigtail from VanCafe some years ago two colors were reversed. You might want to look into that. |
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Vanagon Nut Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008 Posts: 10347 Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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Posted: Mon Aug 30, 2021 11:08 am Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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90weekender wrote: |
Does this new connector look like it’s wired backwards?
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Maybe. I was curious.
For various years, even 1985 Digijet, Bentley shows a brown/white wire for 1/- The original plug should have tiny numbers for each pin. And IIRC, those numbers should be shown in Bentley Digifant or ignition sections.
It seems to me that the brown wire on new harness should be at pin 1.
As mentioned, a VOM is a must for this type of work. Not too hard to learn how to use it to check wire continuity. Always check test probes for continuity before using VOM to test a part or wire.
Neil. _________________ 1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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90weekender Samba Member
Joined: February 17, 2015 Posts: 183
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Posted: Mon Aug 30, 2021 3:30 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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Thanks for the responses Guys.
4Gears4Tires:
Yes the engine cranks really strong...starter and battery are working great.
I think you may be right about the hall sender not supplying a timing signal to the ECU.
AceTaylor:
I did recieve a "reversed" wire pig tail from VC and did rewire it to follow the original pin/color configuration.
Vanagon Nut:
I'm buying a VM and checking Benley next. It's the next frontier in my vanagon journey. I wish I had that EPROM Emulator right about now.
BTW - the very loose hall sender seems like an obvious culprit...but nobody mentioned that. Is it that durable/flexible? |
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felixbobcat Samba Member
Joined: December 13, 2017 Posts: 173 Location: Los Angeles
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Posted: Mon Aug 30, 2021 4:14 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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The connector on the Hall unit itself typically breaks loose as it exits the distributer, however the wires usually make a connection. It can be replaced but you have to remove the distributer to take it apart. It's not difficult to replace just make note of the position of of all the parts when you take it apart. Bus Depot was selling new Hall Units at a good discount a few months ago. |
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felixbobcat Samba Member
Joined: December 13, 2017 Posts: 173 Location: Los Angeles
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Posted: Mon Aug 30, 2021 4:16 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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Just a thought, did you pull the rotor when working on the hall unit? |
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felixbobcat Samba Member
Joined: December 13, 2017 Posts: 173 Location: Los Angeles
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Posted: Mon Aug 30, 2021 4:24 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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Also, you said you grounded the hall to the head bolt, isn't supposed to b grounded to the distributer? |
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DanHoug Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2016 Posts: 4715 Location: Bemidji, MN
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Posted: Mon Aug 30, 2021 4:42 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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i know this isn't realistic but i just gotta say it... make yer self a Hall tester. it is such an important juncture in troubleshooting to know whether the Hall is putting out a signal or not. that said, i fully acknowledge not everyone will have the gumption to build one. i should really make up 20 or so and sell them at an obscene gross profit. maybe in November when i leave my current job.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=701391&highlight= _________________ -dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.
'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd
Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com |
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natejohn Samba Member
Joined: February 20, 2020 Posts: 57 Location: Vancouver, BC
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Posted: Mon Aug 30, 2021 5:26 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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DanHoug wrote: |
i know this isn't realistic but i just gotta say it... make yer self a Hall tester. it is such an important juncture in troubleshooting to know whether the Hall is putting out a signal or not. that said, i fully acknowledge not everyone will have the gumption to build one. i should really make up 20 or so and sell them at an obscene gross profit. maybe in November when i leave my current job.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=701391&highlight= |
I think I'll be making myself one of these... _________________ 1990 Vanagon Westfalia |
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90weekender Samba Member
Joined: February 17, 2015 Posts: 183
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Posted: Mon Aug 30, 2021 8:35 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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felixbobcat:
Thanks for the tip wrt replacing the hall sender. VanCafe has them too.
As mentioned I have no spark from the coil. I'm not aware that a displaced rotor would effect that. Also the ground to the head bolt is separate branch off the hall sender pig tail.
BTW - can you share of photo of the correct location of the big drivers side engine ground strap? Mine is secured by the bolt holding the 1/2" metal water line at the top-rear of the drivers side head. Is that correct?
DanHoug:
Your technical depth continues to impress me. I don't have the capability to build that thing...but sell me one and I promise not to complain, nor blame you. Pinky swear!
BTW - Any recommendations on a affordable but good quality Digital Volt meter. The selection on amazon is bewildering and I don't know enough about the tech requirements to choose one from Orielly...or wherever.
One last thing for today...what retailers(brick and mortar) sell good brass terminal connectors....like the OEM parts. All I'm finding at auto parts places are white metal...aluminum I think.
Thanks everyone for circling back to my benefit.
R |
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Vana Guy Samba Member
Joined: August 23, 2016 Posts: 212
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Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2021 7:30 am Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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Harbor Freight used to give digital VMs away with purchase and coupon. They want about 10 bucks now. Those will do the job. Set the dial to ohm - 200 (upside down U - 200). Now touch leads together, should be 0 - 2 or 3 ohms. When you test a length of wire there will be a few more ohms, depending on length. Be sure you are touching the probes to CLEAN metal.
https://www.harborfreight.com/7-function-digital-multimeter-63759.html
Ohms are a unit of resistance to electricity. A wire or piece of metal has very low resistance, but the longer the wire, the more resistance.
Plastic, wood, glass, air, has very high resistance.
All Volt Meters do these basic functions... AC volts, DC volts, Ohms and Amps. The difference is in range and added functions.
A very good function that you may want to look for is continuity check. Very useful for what you want to do. It makes a beep when a wire has good continuity. |
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felixbobcat Samba Member
Joined: December 13, 2017 Posts: 173 Location: Los Angeles
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Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2021 8:56 am Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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Location of my Engine Ground strap above the number four cylinder
And ground wire from Hall Sensor Harness
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Vanagon Nut Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008 Posts: 10347 Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2021 10:46 am Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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90weekender wrote: |
BTW - can you share of photo of the correct location of the big drivers side engine ground strap?
BTW - Any recommendations on a affordable but good quality Digital Volt meter.
One last thing for today...what retailers(brick and mortar) sell good brass terminal connectors....like the OEM parts. All I'm finding at auto parts places are white metal...aluminum I think.
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For engine head to frame ground, I'd use a suitably sized braided OE type or covered wire with fine higher than normal count strands. i.e. the type used in marine applications.
It's possible the connectors you're seeing are not aluminum. As an example, this page shows material types:
https://www.mcmaster.com/electrical-connectors/quick-disconnect-terminals/
Personally I'd find a smaller VOM with good probes. And this likely isn't available but I'd prefer a VOM with a switchable display light that doesn't time out. I've never had a VOM fail. What usually fails early are the test leads. Especially cheap leads. Two ways to eye ball if leads are super cheap or not:
- is the wire cover thin, shiny, (cheap) or thicker, rubbery (better)?
- where wire enters connector (to meter) and probe, is there added material for strain relief? (better). Do the probe housings feel cheap?
Thinking now, two bad work habits one might develop (me? No ): pushing probe too hard, especially laterally, onto test surface, using probe tip to scrape at slightly dirty metal to get to clean metal. These will cause a cheaply made probe to fail early.
The HF offering is useful to some degree but is an example of a VOM with low quality test leads.
Neil. _________________ 1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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crazyvwvanman Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2008 Posts: 9895 Location: Orbiting San Diego
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Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2021 12:16 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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That ground wire has nothing to do with the hall unit other than it comes out of the same bundle. It needn't be attached to the distributor though people often put it there.
That ground wire is used by the ECU for the Oxygen Sensor Circuit ground reference. It needs to have a reliable connection to engine metal so the ECU can accurately interpret the O2 sensor reading.
Mark
felixbobcat wrote: |
.......
And ground wire from Hall Sensor Harness
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90weekender Samba Member
Joined: February 17, 2015 Posts: 183
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Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:43 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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Getting the Hall sender wiring sorted
Installed new wiring connectors and the engine fires strong and smooth. As usual, the lack of spark was my mistake. A little rechecking of the wiring colors to the Hall Sender revealed that the shipped part from VC was correct. And I did not need to rewire it.
OEM wires exiting boot:
OEM wires twisted inside boot:
Bentley 1987 wiring diagram has correct colors for my 1990 (don't use the 1990 diagram....it's wrong)
Last edited by 90weekender on Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:20 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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4Gears4Tires Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2018 Posts: 2982 Location: MD
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Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 2:03 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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I'm glad to hear you got it figured out and the engine is now running really well! _________________ '87 Syncro
Ferric Oxyhydroxide Superleggera Edition |
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90weekender Samba Member
Joined: February 17, 2015 Posts: 183
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Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 2:14 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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4Gears4Tires,
Thanks for supporting me when I was stuck.
R |
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90weekender Samba Member
Joined: February 17, 2015 Posts: 183
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Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:21 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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300-1000 mile progress report:
I've had very little to report on the 1.35 ratio rockers as precise adjustment was nearly impossible until around 500 miles of break in because several lifters were too soft. After 500, they held oil and firmed up, so I followed felixbobcat's recommendation of .004" of lash. At .004" lash the engine started with some clacking from the new lifters and would settle to a light clicking after warmed up. To me it's sounded just like an aircooled engine.
At 750 miles the morning start up clacking stopped and things smoothed out more. (Mark Ward recommended I not drive on the highway until I after have 1000 miles on it and I was skeptical....but it seems to be true.) Still the .004" lash on the rockers made it sound like an aircooled engine after warm up.
I have not put this engine on a dyno, but to me it feels like the power has been improved in the mid-range and it keeps delivering power to 4500 rpm. The stock engine torque fell off sooner. Power delivery feels smoother...more like a "normal" engine now.
At 900 miles I wanted it as smooth quiet as stock, so adjusted the valves to 0-lash plus 1 turn of the adjuster screw. And WOW it's soooooo quiet and smooth. There is a little more "chuff" exhaust sound at idle, but overall it's better than when I purchased the van with 70k original miles on it. However, this new .004" + 1 turn setting has reduced power across the rev range, so I'm thinking the valves need to be set at 0-lash + 1/2 turn...maybe even less.
I just talked to Scott at MansiSpeed and he explained the valve setting may be slightly different for each engine due to the variety of valves seat depths and valve stem lengths that come with rebuilt or very used heads. My heads are very well rebuilt AMC units from Chris at Intrepid Overland that look like new when I received them. But I will take the valves to 0-lash + 1/4-1/2 turn until they are all quiet. I'll let you know.
Interestingly, at 1000 miles the slight front seal oil weeping stopped! (tencentlife predicted this and I did not believe him). |
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90weekender Samba Member
Joined: February 17, 2015 Posts: 183
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Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 11:13 am Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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3000 Mile update.
After following the break in procedure I changed the oil at 1500 miles to normal oil (no zinc) and headed to Zion Utah for a thanksgiving camping trip with friends.
The trip there from Los Angles is 450miles of climbing and headwinds, and our first real test of this rebuild. I drove it hard up the hills in 3rd and 4th and it performed very well considering its a 100hp and a 4500lb rig. Keeping the revs above 3000rpm it never went under 55mph on the hardest climbs, but it's a lot of revving and full throttle most of the time. That said, it's a smoother and quieter engine than before the rebuild.
The trip back was super easy. Cruising at 70 is comfortable. I think the key is the 1.35 ratio rockers give the 2.1 more power from 3000rpm and it keeps giving past 4500. The stock engine was not as powerful and torque seemed to drop off sooner after 3500rpm.
I am hereby declaring victory on this engine rebuild. Thank you All for being there for me through this rebuild project. There is absolutely no way I could have done this without you.
Zion is glorious and an appropriately church-like space to restart my camping adventures.
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