Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
2.0L Aircooled Vanagon cranks but won't start.
Page: Previous  1, 2
Forum Index -> Vanagon Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
Quick sort: Show newest posts on top | Show oldest posts on top View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Magonlia
Samba Member


Joined: September 03, 2021
Posts: 16
Location: Port Alberni, BC
Magonlia is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:49 pm    Post subject: Re: 2.0L Aircooled Vanagon cranks but won't start. Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:
Magonlia wrote:
This is making me think the ECU is bad?


The ECU is the most dependable part of the system and very seldom goes bad.

Have you checked your fuel injection grounds yet? They are hidden under the #3 manifold runner and are known for causing problems.


Yes, i checked the fuel injection grounds and i checked the ground wires that run to the ECU, #5,16, and 17, right?
_________________
1982 2.0L Aircooled Vanagon Camper
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
Magonlia
Samba Member


Joined: September 03, 2021
Posts: 16
Location: Port Alberni, BC
Magonlia is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:56 pm    Post subject: Re: 2.0L Aircooled Vanagon cranks but won't start. Reply with quote

[quote="Wildthings"]
Magonlia wrote:


The fuel pump only runs when one of two conditions is met.

1. It runs while the engine is being cranked, with the fuel pump relay being triggered by the #50 starter circuit.

2. It runs when the door in the AFM is opened by air flow entering the spinning engine.


Thank you, I didn't know that. I tested both conditions and both worked perfectly so fuel pump is no longer something I am considering.

Wildthings wrote:


You need to verify if you have a Hall based ignition system or a contact point based system. In general for a 1980 Vanagon ignition points were used on Federal vans while the Hall system was used on California rigs.


My van is an early (Febuary/March) 1982 Aircooled Federal Vanagon Camper. I am unsure which system this van is but I'm pretty I'd think it would be the hall based system. I wrote earlier that i tested the ignition system with a test lamp with leads running to both sides of the ignition coil and cranking the engine over. With the lamp pulsating, wouldn't this mean the hall generator is working?

Thanks,
_________________
1982 2.0L Aircooled Vanagon Camper
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
Wildthings
Samba Member


Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50338

Wildthings is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 7:24 pm    Post subject: Re: 2.0L Aircooled Vanagon cranks but won't start. Reply with quote

Either points or a Hall unit are going to cause fluctuation in the voltage on the negative side of the coil. They both have to allow current to flow through the coil and then interrupt that current, it is technically more complicated than that, but that is the gist. If you have a three wire plug on the side of the distributor then that would indicate a Hall unit, but if you have a single wire (typically green in color) between the negative post on the coil and the distributor that would indicate points.

If you have your spark plug wires swapped 180° around the distributor cap, you can have fuel and spark and the engine may not even so much as back fire.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Magonlia
Samba Member


Joined: September 03, 2021
Posts: 16
Location: Port Alberni, BC
Magonlia is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 7:33 pm    Post subject: Re: 2.0L Aircooled Vanagon cranks but won't start. Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:
If you have a three wire plug on the side of the distributor then that would indicate a Hall unit, but if you have a single wire (typically green in color) between the negative post on the coil and the distributor that would indicate points.

If you have your spark plug wires swapped 180° around the distributor cap, you can have fuel and spark and the engine may not even so much as back fire.


Then from what you are saying, mine does have a green wire running from the negative side of the ignition coil to the distributor and there isn't a three-wire plug so it sounds like it's a points system. Does this mean that ignition points could be causing lack of grounding for the injectors?

I'm pretty positive my spark plug wires are correct. With van front end being the top. Top left of distributor runs to top left cylinder, bottom right to bottom right, top right to bottom right, and bottom right to top right. [/quote]
_________________
1982 2.0L Aircooled Vanagon Camper
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
Wildthings
Samba Member


Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50338

Wildthings is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:29 pm    Post subject: Re: 2.0L Aircooled Vanagon cranks but won't start. Reply with quote

Bad points and/or a bad connector could effect the wave form being supplied to the ECU. More likely they would create a poor spark though. As mentioned, I would suggest checking your fuel injection grounds as they are a known trouble point. I would also recommend that you buy a couple sets of Echlin ventilated points for your application, install one set according the Muir, and throw the other set along with a spare condenser into the glove box. There is an art to doing points correctly so read and reread Muir and other sources, it intimidating when you haven't done it before but easy as pie once you have done it a handful of times.

The wires may have been on in the correct positions the last time the engine was run, but someone trying to get it to start and run over the last 4 years could have moved the wires around thinking they might cure the no start problem by doing so. The wires will only work when positioned exactly like pictures of factory engines show only if the distributor drive is installed as per factory. If the distributor drive isn't installed as per factory then the wire will need to be in some other position, which is very common.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Magonlia
Samba Member


Joined: September 03, 2021
Posts: 16
Location: Port Alberni, BC
Magonlia is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 1:29 am    Post subject: Re: 2.0L Aircooled Vanagon cranks but won't start. Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:
Bad points and/or a bad connector could effect the wave form being supplied to the ECU. More likely they would create a poor spark though. As mentioned, I would suggest checking your fuel injection grounds as they are a known trouble point. I would also recommend that you buy a couple sets of Echlin ventilated points for your application, install one set according the Muir, and throw the other set along with a spare condenser into the glove box. There is an art to doing points correctly so read and reread Muir and other sources, it intimidating when you haven't done it before but easy as pie once you have done it a handful of times.

The wires may have been on in the correct positions the last time the engine was run, but someone trying to get it to start and run over the last 4 years could have moved the wires around thinking they might cure the no start problem by doing so. The wires will only work when positioned exactly like pictures of factory engines show only if the distributor drive is installed as per factory. If the distributor drive isn't installed as per factory then the wire will need to be in some other position, which is very common.


Isn't the 1982 supposed to have a hall generator? Why does the bentley show that 80,81,82, and 83 all have hall generator? Why does my 1982 have points system when according to the bentley, buses only have it? Is this normal?
_________________
1982 2.0L Aircooled Vanagon Camper
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
Wildthings
Samba Member


Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50338

Wildthings is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 8:13 am    Post subject: Re: 2.0L Aircooled Vanagon cranks but won't start. Reply with quote

Magonlia wrote:
Wildthings wrote:
Bad points and/or a bad connector could effect the wave form being supplied to the ECU. More likely they would create a poor spark though. As mentioned, I would suggest checking your fuel injection grounds as they are a known trouble point. I would also recommend that you buy a couple sets of Echlin ventilated points for your application, install one set according the Muir, and throw the other set along with a spare condenser into the glove box. There is an art to doing points correctly so read and reread Muir and other sources, it intimidating when you haven't done it before but easy as pie once you have done it a handful of times.

The wires may have been on in the correct positions the last time the engine was run, but someone trying to get it to start and run over the last 4 years could have moved the wires around thinking they might cure the no start problem by doing so. The wires will only work when positioned exactly like pictures of factory engines show only if the distributor drive is installed as per factory. If the distributor drive isn't installed as per factory then the wire will need to be in some other position, which is very common.



Isn't the 1982 supposed to have a hall generator? Why does the bentley show that 80,81,82, and 83 all have hall generator? Why does my 1982 have points system when according to the bentley, buses only have it? Is this normal?


Ask VW Wink

Ttbomk MOST federal aircooled Vanagons had points and ALL California aircooled Vanagons had Hall setups.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Vanagon Nut
Samba Member


Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10371
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
Vanagon Nut is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 8:59 am    Post subject: Re: 2.0L Aircooled Vanagon cranks but won't start. Reply with quote

So you have spark and there is some kind of pulsing going on from coil.

I didn't search entire thread but....

Key to ign. on:

- positive at injectors?

- does pushing AFM flap open cause fuel pump run?

Neil.
_________________
1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA

1988 West DIY 50º ABA

VE7TBN
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Magonlia
Samba Member


Joined: September 03, 2021
Posts: 16
Location: Port Alberni, BC
Magonlia is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 9:30 pm    Post subject: Re: 2.0L Aircooled Vanagon cranks but won't start. Reply with quote

Vanagon Nut wrote:
So you have spark and there is some kind of pulsing going on from coil.

I didn't search entire thread but....

Key to ign. on:

- positive at injectors?

- does pushing AFM flap open cause fuel pump run?

Neil.


Pushing AFM flap open does cause fuel pump to run. Confirmed.

Ran some more tests on injectors today:

One lead to known ground, other lead to injector wire.
Ignition off had 0.03V
Ignition on had 10V ish
Cranking had 10V ish

One lead to injector wire, other lead to other injector wire.
Ignition off 0V
Ignition on 0V
Cranking 0V (no pulsation)

This confirms that injectors aren't receiving ground pulsation.

Another test, testing negative pulsation to ECU:

I connect a lamp with one lead to the + side of the battery
and the other lead to pin #1 (runs to - side of the ignition coil)
Ignition off, lamp is on
Ignition on, lamp is off
Cranking, lamp pulsates.

I have checked the injector grounds (wires/pins 5, 16, and 17) numerous times and they are good.

Does this not confirm the ECU is bad???
_________________
1982 2.0L Aircooled Vanagon Camper
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
Vanagon Nut
Samba Member


Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10371
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
Vanagon Nut is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 10:27 pm    Post subject: Re: 2.0L Aircooled Vanagon cranks but won't start. Reply with quote

Magonlia wrote:


One lead to known ground, other lead to injector wire.
Ignition off had 0.03V
Ignition on had 10V ish
Cranking had 10V ish

One lead to injector wire, other lead to other injector wire.
Ignition off 0V
Ignition on 0V
Cranking 0V (no pulsation)

This confirms that injectors aren't receiving ground pulsation.

Another test, testing negative pulsation to ECU:

I connect a lamp with one lead to the + side of the battery
and the other lead to pin #1 (runs to - side of the ignition coil)
Ignition off, lamp is on
Ignition on, lamp is off
Cranking, lamp pulsates.


According to the AFC pro training manual, ~ 10 Volts might be too high. But, you did state that the resistors checked out ok.

Maybe a VOM isn't "quick" enough to pick up and display voltage as it's applied to a given injector? The AFC manual (and Bentley I suspect) shows the test done with a light. (Noid light IIRC). Here's a link on how to make your own LED test light:

http://eva2.homeip.net/eva2/GI01/ch3.2.10.html

AFC manual says: 'Remove all injector connectors, connect test light to one injector connector, operate starter.' The specked measurement also shows 3-5 volts. If you only have a VOM for this test, maybe set VOM to lower range?

IF I'm understanding ignition coil basic theory correctly....

If the points happened to be closed when you did the first test, it would make sense to see battery voltage; a path to ground was provided. Maybe points were open when you did the second test? Third test indicates to me that the points are opening, closing. (breaking, making path to ground). Since you had the test light to battery + ignition switch on or off should make no difference.

Neil.
_________________
1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA

1988 West DIY 50º ABA

VE7TBN
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
jlrftype7
Samba Member


Joined: July 24, 2018
Posts: 3577
Location: Chicago
jlrftype7 is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 11:05 pm    Post subject: Re: 2.0L Aircooled Vanagon cranks but won't start. Reply with quote

Magonlia wrote:
Vanagon Nut wrote:
So you have spark and there is some kind of pulsing going on from coil.

I didn't search entire thread but....

Key to ign. on:

- positive at injectors?

- does pushing AFM flap open cause fuel pump run?

Neil.


Pushing AFM flap open does cause fuel pump to run. Confirmed.

Ran some more tests on injectors today:

One lead to known ground, other lead to injector wire.
Ignition off had 0.03V
Ignition on had 10V ish
Cranking had 10V ish

One lead to injector wire, other lead to other injector wire.
Ignition off 0V
Ignition on 0V
Cranking 0V (no pulsation)

This confirms that injectors aren't receiving ground pulsation.

Another test, testing negative pulsation to ECU:

I connect a lamp with one lead to the + side of the battery
and the other lead to pin #1 (runs to - side of the ignition coil)
Ignition off, lamp is on
Ignition on, lamp is off
Cranking, lamp pulsates.

I have checked the injector grounds (wires/pins 5, 16, and 17) numerous times and they are good.

Does this not confirm the ECU is bad???

An inexpensive tester that will read both pulsing grounds or voltages and is similar to using a Noid Light is a Logic Probe.
They read fast and have an audible sound along with a simple set of LED lights, worth having one in your tool box.

https://www.electronics-notes.com/articles/test-methods/logic-probes/what-is-a-logic-probe.php
_________________
'68 Westy- my first VW and vehicle/Bus- long gone.- sold it to a traveling Swiss couple....
'67 Type 3 Fastback, my 2nd car- gone
'69 Semi-Auto Stick Shift Beetle-gone
2017 MINI Coopers, our current DDs
‘84 Tin Top - Hilga....Auto
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Magonlia
Samba Member


Joined: September 03, 2021
Posts: 16
Location: Port Alberni, BC
Magonlia is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 11:34 pm    Post subject: Re: 2.0L Aircooled Vanagon cranks but won't start. Reply with quote

Vanagon Nut wrote:

According to the AFC pro training manual, ~ 10 Volts might be too high. But, you did state that the resistors checked out ok.

Maybe a VOM isn't "quick" enough to pick up and display voltage as it's applied to a given injector? The AFC manual (and Bentley I suspect) shows the test done with a light. (Noid light IIRC).


I suspected that as well a while ago when i was first diagnosing the issue so I tried it with a test light that i purchased but there was still nothing.

Vanagon Nut wrote:

AFC manual says: 'Remove all injector connectors, connect test light to one injector connector, operate starter.' The specked measurement also shows 3-5 volts. If you only have a VOM for this test, maybe set VOM to lower range.


I didn't unplug all the injector connectors which could indicate why my test voltage was high but that's just a theory. I Will check that next time.
_________________
1982 2.0L Aircooled Vanagon Camper
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
Wildthings
Samba Member


Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50338

Wildthings is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2021 3:39 am    Post subject: Re: 2.0L Aircooled Vanagon cranks but won't start. Reply with quote

If your injectors aren't being triggered you will see near battery voltage on both sides of the injectors.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Vanagon Nut
Samba Member


Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10371
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
Vanagon Nut is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2021 8:46 am    Post subject: Re: 2.0L Aircooled Vanagon cranks but won't start. Reply with quote

Magonlia wrote:
Vanagon Nut wrote:

The AFC manual (and Bentley I suspect) shows the test done with a light. (Noid light IIRC).


I suspected that as well a while ago when i was first diagnosing the issue so I tried it with a test light that i purchased but there was still nothing.

Vanagon Nut wrote:

AFC manual says: 'Remove all injector connectors, connect test light to one injector connector, operate starter.' The specked measurement also shows 3-5 volts. If you only have a VOM for this test, maybe set VOM to lower range.


I didn't unplug all the injector connectors which could indicate why my test voltage was high but that's just a theory. I Will check that next time.


Oh my bad then. I assumed you were using a regular test light/probe thing. i.e. not one with an LED bulb.

fwiw, the injection system is batch fired, not sequential.

It appears the injectors are wired in parallel. So, I think one should see the same voltage at any point in that circuit.

Neil.
_________________
1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA

1988 West DIY 50º ABA

VE7TBN
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Magonlia
Samba Member


Joined: September 03, 2021
Posts: 16
Location: Port Alberni, BC
Magonlia is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2022 12:49 pm    Post subject: Re: 2.0L Aircooled Vanagon cranks but won't start. Reply with quote

Update for those curious.

I took the van to a shop (Bavarian Imports Auto) in Nanaimo, BC. They were very helpful and diagnosed my issue rather quickly. Turns out the problem was the timing. Apparently, it was way out of timing which was leading to the ECU not grounding the injectors.

With that issue solved, the van runs (not very well) but unfortunately has low compression in cylinders 1 & 3 so it's looking like the heads are going to have to be replaced.

Does anyone know what are some common issues with low compression before i replace the heads? And if i have to replace the heads, what are some good preliminary measures to increase reliability?
_________________
1982 2.0L Aircooled Vanagon Camper
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
MarkWard
Samba Member


Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 17121
Location: Retired South Florida
MarkWard is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2022 1:27 pm    Post subject: Re: 2.0L Aircooled Vanagon cranks but won't start. Reply with quote

It was not uncommon for the 2.0 to melt a piston. You'll know if you melted a piston when you get the heads off. A cylinder leak down test could give you a clue as to what is not sealing properly.
_________________
☮️
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Wildthings
Samba Member


Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50338

Wildthings is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2022 2:18 pm    Post subject: Re: 2.0L Aircooled Vanagon cranks but won't start. Reply with quote

Since #1 & #3 share cam lobes, you might want to rig up a way to measure the lift and/or visually inspect the cam through the lifter bores.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Wildthings
Samba Member


Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50338

Wildthings is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2022 2:18 pm    Post subject: Re: 2.0L Aircooled Vanagon cranks but won't start. Reply with quote

Since #1 & #3 share cam lobes, you might want to rig up a way to measure the lift and/or visually inspect the cam through the lifter bores.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Vanagon All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page: Previous  1, 2
Page 2 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2023, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB
Links to eBay or other vendor sites may be affiliate links where the site receives compensation.