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Message |
Paul.H
Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2015
Posts: 613
Location: England
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 Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 8:21 am Post subject: Re: More power please |
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| baz76 wrote: |
| Paul.H wrote: |
| baz76 wrote: |
Few more details, compression is 10.2.1, I don't want to go higher on pump gas.
Exhaust is 1 5/8 speedshop hideaway.
Induction is 45mm throttle bodies from vwspeedshop. I don't particularly like these as plugs and manifold nuts are a nightmare to access due to manifold shape. I was considering getting idf manifolds with the super pros and switch to idf style throttle bodies. |
Baz
If I remember correctly at the time I advised you against the heads you had ordered and apart from the personal logistical issues you had getting the heads you ended up having to actually weld up the manifolds because the cast in port was too large for the head flange (and it ain't that big) so that says the port on the heads is too small for your application and mis matched to the 45mm throttle bodies. My advice was just get some CB Wedgeports.
Regarding plug access and nuts on the manifolds. If you want a little more convenience you can reshape the nut area to accept regular manifold nuts 11mm and don't bother with the third stud. you can also grind away some of flange . I mean you've ground the shit out of everything else so it shouldn't be a problem.
So OK you decide to change the manifolds for IDF big beef which is the only option you have then try and match port them to the super pro heads If you are really careful you may have a 1mm wall thickness next to nut and will have to weld it up. At this point you will realise why the manifolds you have were designed the way they are and you will still have the same shitty plug access.
If you need more runner volume (probably not) then the manifolds are available in a 50mm version which have an as cast port almost the same as the CB Wedgeports . Someone on here will tell you all about that as they just match ported a pair of each size.
Exhausts- If you want the full top end performance of a 2276 with wedgeports you will need to put a merged header with a straight through muffler Cal Look style. You get a choice with exhaust quiet or lound what's it going to be ?
An engine is only as good as it's it's weakest link and that in your case was the heads you bought. I even vaguely rember telling you after you had received the heads to get rid while they were still new and unused ?
PS What exactly do you want more power for anyway ? |
Hi Paul, I decided to stick with the heads for now, torben has addressed some problems so hopefully they should be better now.
I don't use the third stud nut, I kept the stud though to help intake gasket stay in place and not get sucked in. There wouldn't be an issue with access if I had hi pacs, and I appreciate all hi po motors have access issues on the plugs and manifold nuts so it's not strictly a problem with your manifolds, I considered idf pattern manifolds as they appear a little more slender and perhaps access a little improved. For now though I'm gonna live with what I got, next motor will be centre mount turbo.
Why do I want more power? Seriously? Don't we all? To be honest I never felt the motor lived up to its full potential and that bothered me, so fixing it rather than ditching parts seems the logical thing to do.
Ps I'd like to get my car to your dyno if possible sometime over the winter. When this engine was originally built and seized on the dyno I'm sure I saw a flat torque curve from 2500-5500 before the seizure took place.
There's now a big dip after 2500 that doesn't recover until 3600. It's the same spec engine just with a different tuner. I stupidly over wrote the map that was in the ecu from the initial tuning session. |
Dyno isn't going to solve any of your problems and you can just data log to a laptop and have a look at the AFR and timing in the dip.
Once you ditched carbs there really is only one formula for "boulevard blaster" type engines.
I used this formula on the drag strip to pound anyone who thought differently  Because as you know when the lights drop the bullshit stops |
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Alstrup
Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 7208
Location: Videbaek Denmark
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| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 9:28 am Post subject: Re: More power please |
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Well, I for one couldīnt care less about how fast it gets on the strip. For me its all about driveability and good power at the same time. You canīt do that on the strip. WOT tuning is easy. Its the lower end and midrange that is the tricky part.
Datalogging can get you a looong way in the quest of getting the engine in tune. Probably to the point where most people are accepting it as "good enough" But it canīt tell you the last 5% or so, because the datalogging canīt determine whether the engine like X or Y afr and or timing in a specific area. And even getting to that level requires a pretty stout ECU. (This is one of the areas where I have to admit that the MS Tuner studio does a great job in most cases)
I/we use both the engine, and the chassis dyno (or hubs dependant on how much power) extensively. The engine dyno is almost constantly backed up by 4 weeks, sometimes more, and that is exactly because of that, that you can find little things during part load, part rpms or WOT from lower rpms where you get all the engine data AND the power output at the same time.
Most of the engines that go on the dyno are track engines and a few drift engines too.
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Paul.H
Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2015
Posts: 613
Location: England
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| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 11:11 am Post subject: Re: More power please |
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Back in the day I didn't have a dyno and didn't need one. All the motors were street motors and tuned to perfection. They would idle at 500rpm and pull clean away without stutter and the power delivery was like a jet turbine. Dynos are convenient and great for motors that aren't driven on the street but not that great for tuning cruise and low load.
For most customers if they don't know what they are doing they have to get someone else to do it and the tuner probably won't be too keen on driving around for hours in someone else vehicle-so dyno it is |
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ralf
Samba Member
Joined: July 08, 2008
Posts: 1215
Location: r4
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| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 12:47 pm Post subject: Re: More power please |
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| baz76 wrote: |
| ralf wrote: |
if i may chime in
what ecu/management are you using because you are on ITB i read earlier
nice set up btw |
Thanks. I've an ancient dta s40 ecu, it's what came with the complete efi kit from vwspeedshop. |
hey i know dts!! wow havnt seen one in ages, a mentor of mine used to favor that and he did have his own engine dyno too so it taught me alot.
you may pm me if you'd like...
but il say this ahead of time. Before spending on new heads or other things? perhaps what you have now you are just getting 80% out of it...
i am not sure if Alstrup has used or tried DTS but i know he has tuned some efi units with experience. what i say here is.. even today Honda/toyota tuning and even evo... to even SR20's for drifting...
alot cant tune for isht... its half the time tuning "according to" their experts wisdom and never according to what the engine likes or needs...
on carb stuff we are limited to idles, mains and airs.. and the imulsion tube + fuel pressure does dictate the characteristics... correct me if im wrong guys.
but in ur DTS , like cb's black box on ur ignition map alone, u have 8-10 cells
in laymans term thats like having 8-10 different distributor curves in one engine! i am sure there are segments there that can be tweaked or tuned to near perfect and that may be a nigh n day difference for you.
the thing is on na steady state dyno... allwe do is the fullthrottle tune aka the last 2 columns on ur efi map table... so how about the previous 6-8 columns?? right? and that may mean a big difference on how it drives...
i just share this cuz in honda's ive been efi tuning sinc 2006 and til now im kinda shocket ALOT of self "proclaimed" tuners do not even understand engine dynamics, its always "buy this change this or this is better cuz we used this"
not saying theyre wrong its just, that isnt always the case in my book.
to emphasize on this, Motogp fo sho got their teams dynoing their engines multiple hours at a time right? with load varying changes etc... BUT
on a friday they go to the track with 40 different map tune variations
by saturday (qualifying) theyre down to 20 best ones including their best qualifying tune
by sunday Raceday they will choose their best out of the remaining 4 choices
these guys have way more funds than us yet they tune it to that much precision.
so basically all im saying is maybe bfor spending much? get a decent wideband and since u are efi it is rather something u can tweak etc
just a thought. as i have tuned some engines to improve that had the sh!ttest parts imaginable, simply means u can still get 100% out of them ?
like lets imagine u are getting 70% of what u have?
change to better catalog parts and make more power?
but still on that 70% of what u have so yes u got stronger performance...
then the next guy comes next to you that has it on 95% of what u have...
we know who will want more power then right?
besides a wideband is like a timing light u can use it on all ur cars or different cars to know its status
HTH
_________________
Flow Through a Curved Conduit
porting my SP head for my brother's project
https://youtu.be/OS_mVjQuqgk |
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Paul.H
Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2015
Posts: 613
Location: England
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| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 1:31 pm Post subject: Re: More power please |
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Here's a motor similar to yours. I'm sure you've seen it before.
It's got wedgeports,and 86b cam and a turbo muffler
The different ECU,sequential,larger throttles and extra 50cc won't make much change.
It had valve float and oil cavitation so had to cap it at about 6700rpm but still made good power. Don't know who built it but It was just an engine assembled from out of the box parts
Link
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challomoner
Samba Member
Joined: October 13, 2010
Posts: 1209
Location: IRELAND
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| Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:38 am Post subject: Re: More power please |
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| ralf wrote: |
| baz76 wrote: |
| ralf wrote: |
if i may chime in
what ecu/management are you using because you are on ITB i read earlier
nice set up btw |
Thanks. I've an ancient dta s40 ecu, it's what came with the complete efi kit from vwspeedshop. |
hey i know dts!! wow havnt seen one in ages, a mentor of mine used to favor that and he did have his own engine dyno too so it taught me alot.
you may pm me if you'd like...
but il say this ahead of time. Before spending on new heads or other things? perhaps what you have now you are just getting 80% out of it...
i am not sure if Alstrup has used or tried DTS but i know he has tuned some efi units with experience. what i say here is.. even today Honda/toyota tuning and even evo... to even SR20's for drifting...
alot cant tune for isht... its half the time tuning "according to" their experts wisdom and never according to what the engine likes or needs...
on carb stuff we are limited to idles, mains and airs.. and the imulsion tube + fuel pressure does dictate the characteristics... correct me if im wrong guys.
but in ur DTS , like cb's black box on ur ignition map alone, u have 8-10 cells
in laymans term thats like having 8-10 different distributor curves in one engine! i am sure there are segments there that can be tweaked or tuned to near perfect and that may be a nigh n day difference for you.
the thing is on na steady state dyno... allwe do is the fullthrottle tune aka the last 2 columns on ur efi map table... so how about the previous 6-8 columns?? right? and that may mean a big difference on how it drives...
i just share this cuz in honda's ive been efi tuning sinc 2006 and til now im kinda shocket ALOT of self "proclaimed" tuners do not even understand engine dynamics, its always "buy this change this or this is better cuz we used this"
not saying theyre wrong its just, that isnt always the case in my book.
to emphasize on this, Motogp fo sho got their teams dynoing their engines multiple hours at a time right? with load varying changes etc... BUT
on a friday they go to the track with 40 different map tune variations
by saturday (qualifying) theyre down to 20 best ones including their best qualifying tune
by sunday Raceday they will choose their best out of the remaining 4 choices
these guys have way more funds than us yet they tune it to that much precision.
so basically all im saying is maybe bfor spending much? get a decent wideband and since u are efi it is rather something u can tweak etc
just a thought. as i have tuned some engines to improve that had the sh!ttest parts imaginable, simply means u can still get 100% out of them ?
like lets imagine u are getting 70% of what u have?
change to better catalog parts and make more power?
but still on that 70% of what u have so yes u got stronger performance...
then the next guy comes next to you that has it on 95% of what u have...
we know who will want more power then right?
besides a wideband is like a timing light u can use it on all ur cars or different cars to know its status
HTH |
The guy who tuned my car knows dta inside out, its the only reason he agreed to tune it. He never tuned an air-cooled vw before though. There were issues with different readings from my lambda and his which was shoved up the tail pipe, he tuned to his readings and it was pig rich, but started and ran very well. I corrected most of the richness over time and the motor did liven up a bit but its still rich in places.
I agree with you that I need to have what I have got already working 100%, there's probably more in it if it was tuned correctly. I need to study some more and spend some time learning more about ignition tables, that's something I'm pretty clueless about😉 |
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challomoner
Samba Member
Joined: October 13, 2010
Posts: 1209
Location: IRELAND
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| Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:43 am Post subject: Re: More power please |
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| Paul.H wrote: |
Here's a motor similar to yours. I'm sure you've seen it before.
It's got wedgeports,and 86b cam and a turbo muffler
The different ECU,sequential,larger throttles and extra 50cc won't make much change.
It had valve float and oil cavitation so had to cap it at about 6700rpm but still made good power. Don't know who built it but It was just an engine assembled from out of the box parts
Link
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Yep I've seen all your videos, nice engine for sure, I know my heads will never make that power but I still think they do perform good enough and will perform even better now with the latest work I'm having done . When I chose the components of my engine I had low to mid range torque as my priority, I'm not fussed about chasing numbers, a nice torquey engine with great driveability is what I'm after and I think with it correctly tuned I'll be where I want to be. |
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challomoner
Samba Member
Joined: October 13, 2010
Posts: 1209
Location: IRELAND
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| Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:48 am Post subject: Re: More power please |
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The graph for anyone interested. It feels a bit faster since then since I leaned it out.
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ralf
Samba Member
Joined: July 08, 2008
Posts: 1215
Location: r4
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| Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:26 pm Post subject: Re: More power please |
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| baz76 wrote: |
| ralf wrote: |
| baz76 wrote: |
| ralf wrote: |
if i may chime in
what ecu/management are you using because you are on ITB i read earlier
nice set up btw |
Thanks. I've an ancient dta s40 ecu, it's what came with the complete efi kit from vwspeedshop. |
hey i know dts!! wow havnt seen one in ages, a mentor of mine used to favor that and he did have his own engine dyno too so it taught me alot.
you may pm me if you'd like...
but il say this ahead of time. Before spending on new heads or other things? perhaps what you have now you are just getting 80% out of it...
i am not sure if Alstrup has used or tried DTS but i know he has tuned some efi units with experience. what i say here is.. even today Honda/toyota tuning and even evo... to even SR20's for drifting...
alot cant tune for isht... its half the time tuning "according to" their experts wisdom and never according to what the engine likes or needs...
on carb stuff we are limited to idles, mains and airs.. and the imulsion tube + fuel pressure does dictate the characteristics... correct me if im wrong guys.
but in ur DTS , like cb's black box on ur ignition map alone, u have 8-10 cells
in laymans term thats like having 8-10 different distributor curves in one engine! i am sure there are segments there that can be tweaked or tuned to near perfect and that may be a nigh n day difference for you.
the thing is on na steady state dyno... allwe do is the fullthrottle tune aka the last 2 columns on ur efi map table... so how about the previous 6-8 columns?? right? and that may mean a big difference on how it drives...
i just share this cuz in honda's ive been efi tuning sinc 2006 and til now im kinda shocket ALOT of self "proclaimed" tuners do not even understand engine dynamics, its always "buy this change this or this is better cuz we used this"
not saying theyre wrong its just, that isnt always the case in my book.
to emphasize on this, Motogp fo sho got their teams dynoing their engines multiple hours at a time right? with load varying changes etc... BUT
on a friday they go to the track with 40 different map tune variations
by saturday (qualifying) theyre down to 20 best ones including their best qualifying tune
by sunday Raceday they will choose their best out of the remaining 4 choices
these guys have way more funds than us yet they tune it to that much precision.
so basically all im saying is maybe bfor spending much? get a decent wideband and since u are efi it is rather something u can tweak etc
just a thought. as i have tuned some engines to improve that had the sh!ttest parts imaginable, simply means u can still get 100% out of them ?
like lets imagine u are getting 70% of what u have?
change to better catalog parts and make more power?
but still on that 70% of what u have so yes u got stronger performance...
then the next guy comes next to you that has it on 95% of what u have...
we know who will want more power then right?
besides a wideband is like a timing light u can use it on all ur cars or different cars to know its status
HTH |
The guy who tuned my car knows dta inside out, its the only reason he agreed to tune it. He never tuned an air-cooled vw before though. There were issues with different readings from my lambda and his which was shoved up the tail pipe, he tuned to his readings and it was pig rich, but started and ran very well. I corrected most of the richness over time and the motor did liven up a bit but its still rich in places.
I agree with you that I need to have what I have got already working 100%, there's probably more in it if it was tuned correctly. I need to study some more and spend some time learning more about ignition tables, that's something I'm pretty clueless about😉 |
pardon me for not reading all of your thread, aft my post i realized you already have a wideband which is good.
nothing to take away from the DTS tuning guy? but here i know of a tuner that knows AEM inside out and is a dealer of it... yet he/they cant match the record we had when we (me and him were together in one shop) our record stands to this day... we ran 2.2bar boost... they pushing now up to 4bar boost still not close to the record... they do melt the injector tips doe 
so nothing against anyone... like you said ignition map and its correlation means night and day in difference... we not even factoring in the difference of each degree of timing per what a/f u tune at cuz that changes alot too!
the good thing here is you are there working on it and u know ur dts that solves half the problem vs guessing... while we all use a different software to tune? the ignition pattern/algorithm remains consistent and yes aircooled may like and react different , thats where i believe ALstrup will have more than great inputs for you. other than that, i certainly wont mind sharing scnippets of ignition tables with you etc
and yes.. having the wideband sniffer at the exhaust tip vs 3-5inches aft the collector reads waaaaaay different...
its why when i dyno tune (local dynojet) we use their wideband sniffer yes but i still have my personal wideband installed on each customer i tune... as i can correlate differences better and maximize a tune...
its real nice you checking details like this... and once you get near 100% of its potential (your current)
then going to what Paul.H suggested? wedge ports and 86b oh man u might see urself in a "faster class" as i agree with his suggestions its gonna liven it up indeed... just not if you only get 70% of it , as you do now
_________________
Flow Through a Curved Conduit
porting my SP head for my brother's project
https://youtu.be/OS_mVjQuqgk |
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Paul.H
Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2015
Posts: 613
Location: England
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 2:09 am Post subject: Re: More power please |
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| baz76 wrote: |
The graph for anyone interested. It feels a bit faster since then since I leaned it out.
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If I saw that dip on a graph I'd set the dyno to hold it at 3500rpm and go up and down with the timing and afr in real time and see what difference it made.
I had a similar thing on a Porsche 911 it did it with carbs and also the same with efi . The whole shape of the graph just moved up in the mid range and sky rocketed on the top end. I changed the throttle sizes,the intake lengths,injector positions ,injector size, timing afr eveything possible but the dip remained |
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challomoner
Samba Member
Joined: October 13, 2010
Posts: 1209
Location: IRELAND
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:26 am Post subject: Re: More power please |
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| Paul.H wrote: |
| baz76 wrote: |
The graph for anyone interested. It feels a bit faster since then since I leaned it out.
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If I saw that dip on a graph I'd set the dyno to hold it at 3500rpm and go up and down with the timing and afr in real time and see what difference it made.
I had a similar thing on a Porsche 911 it did it with carbs and also the same with efi . The whole shape of the graph just moved up in the mid range and sky rocketed on the top end. I changed the throttle sizes,the intake lengths,injector positions ,injector size, timing afr eveything possible but the dip remained |
Thanks Paul that's the type of guidance I need 👍🏻 |
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Alstrup
Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 7208
Location: Videbaek Denmark
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:36 am Post subject: Re: More power please |
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That dip is exhaust related most of the time. I know what youre talking about on the 911. The only way to cure it is to switch to another type of exhaust (header) On ACVWīs you can shout, curse, pray, do the raindance and whatnot. If the exhaust reversion, - or extraction is bad, no timing change or induction length change will cure it. You can smooth it out a good deal, but not cure it. - Once in a blue moon you can also reduce it with a change in cam timing. (advancing or retarding the cam) But as said, the exhaust is the main factor.
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Paul.H
Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2015
Posts: 613
Location: England
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:53 am Post subject: Re: More power please |
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I guess the test was carried out with belt and muffler without which for comparative purposes it'd be showing more like 170hp most of this would be the belt. It may pick up some more if the tune is off. I wouldn't expect any more from this engine with those heads
| Quote: |
Ps I'd like to get my car to your dyno if possible sometime over the winter. When this engine was originally built and seized on the dyno I'm sure I saw a flat torque curve from 2500-5500 before the seizure took place.
There's now a big dip after 2500 that doesn't recover until 3600. It's the same spec engine just with a different tuner. I stupidly over wrote the map that was in the ecu from the initial tuning session. |
In this case the dip would be a tune issue.
Looking on the CB Performance "Builders Choice" 2276cc they claim 180hp with 48mm IDF which from memory have a 38mm venturi. A very reasonable estimate |
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madmike
Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2005
Posts: 5292
Location: Atlanta,Michigan
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 4:54 pm Post subject: Re: More power please |
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"And that's all I'm gonna say about that" quote from Forest 
_________________
'Black Ice'Drag Buggy 'Turbo'
Rail Buggy 1915 turbo
76 Drag/Street bug 2180cc 'Turbo' 11:85 @113 mph"If I go any faster I'll burn up the Hamster" ,gets 28 mpg. also 10/09/22 11.90 @115 mph
"If I'm ever on Life Support,UNPLUG Me, Then Plug me back In see if that Works" |
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Paul.H
Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2015
Posts: 613
Location: England
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| Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 12:37 am Post subject: Re: More power please |
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| madmike wrote: |
"And that's all I'm gonna say about that" quote from Forest |
Can't argue with that |
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StefansBus
Samba Member
Joined: November 20, 2015
Posts: 242
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 12:45 am Post subject: Re: More power please |
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| Paul.H wrote: |
| madmike wrote: |
"And that's all I'm gonna say about that" quote from Forest |
Can't argue with that |
I would argue that if your turbo lag is really a "few seconds" long then there is something wrong with your set-up. Note: Turbo lag is not the time it takes to reach boost RPM. It's the time it takes to build boost when accelerating from within the boost RPM range. |
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Paul.H
Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2015
Posts: 613
Location: England
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| Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:08 am Post subject: Re: More power please |
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| StefansBus wrote: |
| Paul.H wrote: |
| madmike wrote: |
"And that's all I'm gonna say about that" quote from Forest |
Can't argue with that |
I would argue that if your turbo lag is really a "few seconds" long then there is something wrong with your set-up. Note: Turbo lag is not the time it takes to reach boost RPM. It's the time it takes to build boost when accelerating from within the boost RPM range. |
It's just a meme
For real world turbo lag problems just give it a 30 shot and move on to clutch problems |
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madmike
Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2005
Posts: 5292
Location: Atlanta,Michigan
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| Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:39 am Post subject: Re: More power please |
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Ha,, had a tiny bit when I had a Weber Sidedraft 
upgraded ,, no 'Lag' with a Holley 680 Quickfuel ,runs 11.85 @113mph(17 psi boost) and gets 26-28 mpg on Premium Pump gas,, I do spray water/meth(pissor juice) aka: windshield solvent
_________________
'Black Ice'Drag Buggy 'Turbo'
Rail Buggy 1915 turbo
76 Drag/Street bug 2180cc 'Turbo' 11:85 @113 mph"If I go any faster I'll burn up the Hamster" ,gets 28 mpg. also 10/09/22 11.90 @115 mph
"If I'm ever on Life Support,UNPLUG Me, Then Plug me back In see if that Works" |
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Paul.H
Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2015
Posts: 613
Location: England
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| Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:47 am Post subject: Re: More power please |
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| madmike wrote: |
Ha,, had a tiny bit when I had a Weber Sidedraft
upgraded ,, no 'Lag' with a Holley 680 Quickfuel ,runs 11.85 @113mph(17 psi boost) and gets 26-28 mpg on Premium Pump gas,, I do spray water/meth(pissor juice) aka: windshield solvent |
Ah that's slow as f*** are you sure you had all the plug wires on ? |
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madmike
Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2005
Posts: 5292
Location: Atlanta,Michigan
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| Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:58 am Post subject: Re: More power please |
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Yae I know,, I'm an old Man ,, Car has full carpet and a headliner too and a heavy full roll cage
_________________
'Black Ice'Drag Buggy 'Turbo'
Rail Buggy 1915 turbo
76 Drag/Street bug 2180cc 'Turbo' 11:85 @113 mph"If I go any faster I'll burn up the Hamster" ,gets 28 mpg. also 10/09/22 11.90 @115 mph
"If I'm ever on Life Support,UNPLUG Me, Then Plug me back In see if that Works" |
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