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Dummy Learns Transaxle
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Clatter
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 11:20 am    Post subject: Re: Dummy Learns Transaxle Reply with quote

OK, here's a shrimp-load of pics and prattle...
I'm a gonna load it on here.
Sure warms my heart that y'all share the wisdom and answer my stupid questions.
Thanks in advance. Wink

First off, the 'dirt' box keeps getting nicer and nicer.
Since i ordered a bunch of expensive parts from Weddle,
I'm kind of in over my head.

First question..
This 091 pinon bearing works with the shift housing with the little 'shelf' at the bottom of the bearing bore, right?
All the other shift housings i have here, the bore for the main-shaft bearing goes clear thru with no 'shelf'.
Like this here.. These parts work together?
(Bearing is upside-down here from how it goes in)
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

The 091 also eliminates the thrust washer at this bearing, it has the inside race fatter so the thrust washer doesn't go in.
Same with the 091 pinion bearing - thicker so no thrust washer.
Correct?


Dag, here diggin thru junk i found a whole stock bus 091 gear stack in good shape! Shocked
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This got me thinking evil thoughts about the 091 1st gear idler and slider mod, and then i just had to back up a bit..
This Dirt Box uses a fine-tooth 4th, and isn't even getting a super diff.
Need to not be stupid..

Have two '75-up 'Zig-Zag'/'Shift-rib' boxes here, that i haven't taken apart to make my dream trans out of once i know how.
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And that led me to drinking beer and staring and thinking...
(Never a good thing)
And it came to me.
Have the whole IRS diff and parts left over from the Mystery trans to convert one of the swing boxes to IRS.
Both of those swing boxes were good shape and recent rebuilds.
Why not build a box from those parts?
A quick-n' dirty slam-it-together like i shoulda done in the first place! Idea
Then i can get thru one rebuild and stab it in and try it out and see what i did wrong.
The parts are all clean and sitting here.
Needed carrier bearings and diff shims and gasket set and one of those adaptor sleeves for the throwout..
So ordered all that from Weddle, packed away all the nice new expensive stuff for the Dirt box, and broke out the Failed Rebuild box.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Time for the 'ol Quick N' Dirty i shoulda been doing all along!
Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 11:48 am    Post subject: Which R&P? Reply with quote

First thing... R&P.

Hoping someone who knows can help look at these.. Pray

Are these OK to run Question

Looking at these two G 4.12 ring n' pinions;
Failed Rebuild on the right (with bearing) Dirt Box on the left (bare)..
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Failed Rebuild has these pitted areas. think it's OK?
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Seems the Dirt one is better?
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What you think?
Are these any good?
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 1:08 pm    Post subject: Failed Rebuild Details Reply with quote

Really digging into the Fail box has been good.
A lot of things i've been learning by reading the last couple of weeks make sense now.
That a major rebuilder would sell this to a customer says a bit about parts and availability and whatnot.


In no particular order:

They 'broke the edges' as we called it in a prototype machine shop BITD.
A.k.a. the sharp edges of the gears were ground away to a little radius.

Before:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


After:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Same with the edges of the pinion:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Looking at the teeth themselves, there is a burr all along the tips of the teeth on the OG R&P,
That was ground away on the rebuilt one.
Is that what Gears and others call "Tip Relieved"?
That's a generally-accepted good practice, right?
To take and round any sharp edges a bit, especially on gear teeth..


Got these diamond-tip Dremel bits for cheap a couple years ago when i did my Porsche trans.
Guessing these are good for breaking the edges of all the gear teeth,
Making them "Tip Relieved"?
Or are these just way too small?
Maybe use a roloc?
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Interesting how wide they opened up the retaining wires for keys:
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They seemed to think this reverse gear was in good enough shape to sell to a customer with a warranty:
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Here's something else i read about,
Sometimes you have to take these splines down on a grinder to make all different years of 3-4 hubs fit the splines:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Maybe one of the reasons the box failed?
That the synchros were the new Brazil Diehl brand that sit too high on the cones?
Will need to measure the height,
But,
That's what we have here?
The D means new Brazil synchros, right?
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Started playing with a pinion stack:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


They didn't get 3rd gear clip very tight.
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First gear kind of sucks.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Got a way better one from the other swing core.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Since i bought all new steel-caged rollers for the Dirt box i have a bunch of longer paired-needle rollers in steel cages.
Makes me want to change out this short-needle plastic-cage bearing here.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Since i don't have an early pinion nut tool,
I was going to leave this together.
If the shim can give me good clearance with sanding 1st gear,
then that might be fine to just leave.

But then,
Was thinking of grabbing my bigass pipe wrench and making sure that nut is good and tight.
And if it's not, then change a bearing.

It's a quick-n-dirty here..

Hhmmm... Think

Anything any of you guys have to say about any of this I'm all ears.

What do i got wrong?
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Dummy Learns Transaxle Reply with quote

You are looking at so much that is irrevelant it is uncanny, you are making mountians from gopher hills, and just scaring yourself and others who have no clue. My offer stands, problem is your pics clearly(to me) show massive mix match in parts.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 8:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Dummy Learns Transaxle Reply with quote

mcmscott wrote:
You are looking at so much that is irrevelant it is uncanny, you are making mountians from gopher hills, and just scaring yourself and others who have no clue. My offer stands, problem is your pics clearly(to me) show massive mix match in parts.


How about Friday?
I can drive down there and camp in my bus nearby Thursday night,
To be there early Friday.

Does that work?

I can be there anytime.
Just say when.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2021 11:21 am    Post subject: Re: Dummy Learns Transaxle Reply with quote

Yes! Get there! You will love it!
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GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! Smile
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2021 3:39 pm    Post subject: Pinion Shaft Reply with quote

Doing hours and hours of homework every day..

Starting to appreciate how right Scott is about the mishmash these boxes really are.
Many places that do these just rip them down and separate the parts.
Mainshaft spacers in one box, snap rings in another..
When a transaxle gets built, it might come from a bunch of different cores.
This makes it tough for a newbie rebuilder when thereís not a complete factory set of parts.

Keeps me on my toes learning. Wink

For example:
The early 4-tab pinion nut on right isnít usually on a splined-4th snap-ring pinion shaft.
Itís usually on a keyed-4th nut-type pinion like on the left.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Makes for some interesting adventures..
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2021 6:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Dummy Learns Transaxle Reply with quote

Clatter wrote:
mcmscott wrote:
You are looking at so much that is irrevelant it is uncanny, you are making mountians from gopher hills, and just scaring yourself and others who have no clue. My offer stands, problem is your pics clearly(to me) show massive mix match in parts.


How about Friday?
I can drive down there and camp in my bus nearby Thursday night,
To be there early Friday.

Does that work?

I can be there anytime.
Just say when.



I'll give you Friday, 830 am is good. Please bring a complete core and parts.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 10:25 am    Post subject: Re: Dummy Learns Transaxle Reply with quote

mcmscott wrote:
Clatter wrote:
mcmscott wrote:
You are looking at so much that is irrevelant it is uncanny, you are making mountians from gopher hills, and just scaring yourself and others who have no clue. My offer stands, problem is your pics clearly(to me) show massive mix match in parts.


How about Friday?
I can drive down there and camp in my bus nearby Thursday night,
To be there early Friday.

Does that work?

I can be there anytime.
Just say when.



I'll give you Friday, 830 am is good. Please bring a complete core and parts.


Nice. Cool

See you then.

Let me know if there's anything else i can get or bring.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 10:50 am    Post subject: Re: Dummy Learns Transaxle Reply with quote

In the meantime i tore into the Failed Rebuild box..

Figured I'd use the 2nd-best parts to throw an IRS box together and learn.

Also, the pressure is off to make it nice,
And we'll use what's here.

Mostly i gotta get SOMETHING done already.
Super sick of just spending money and cleaning parts! Evil or Very Mad

First off, i wanted to get the pinion nut off to inspect this pinion bearing.
Since the box was a fresh rebuild and it had a new mainshaft bearing i was curious if the pinion bearing was new.
Sure looks like it.
But i didn't have one of the early pinion nut tools...

So i tried to get it off with a pipe wrench, and kind of mangled it a bit,
But it was TIGHT, so i couldn't get it to budge, so I'm happy.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.




Turns out that these early nuts take smaller shims, and i didn't have any more of those.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Looking at my collection of 3.80 first idler gears i have three. Cool
The other swing box had these oil grooves added, but really crudely.
Plus, they surfaced the face of the gear there, but it looks like it was done with an angle grinder.
Super rough and un-even..
The thing ran fine for years for me like that so i guess you never know.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Decided to add those oiling grooves to the gear i used.
WTH, right?
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Of all the 1St gears i had, only the one that came from the box originally was short enough to go on with any end-play.
But not enough, only like .002 or so.
All the others were too thick and the clearance went away when they went on.
And since i couldn't get the nut off to use a later nut/shims, and didn't have any more shims, i sanded down the gear to get a few more thou clearance.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Damn! LOT if humping on the old 220 wet/dry to get a couple more thou clearance! Shocked

Washer under there was pretty crooked, but at least .005 all the way around.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Weddle only has a couple sizes of 3rd gear snap rings in stock and a got a few for to surface grind and get a variety of sizes.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


One was SO close! but sanding and sanding i finally gave up.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


One from the other box was -almost thick enough to fit tight,
Gave about .003 - .004, which is what the Bible says it should have,
So i went with that one.
No need to fuss getting this snap ring tight on a stock junker box anyways.. Right?
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Got the pinion stack assembled,
Drug out the cleaned case,
blasted up some side covers,
And sat there making VROOM noises.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


VROOM!! Cool
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 6:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Dummy Learns Transaxle Reply with quote

Geezhus, Clatter! So after 4- trans teardowns, you seem to have gotten really good at teardowns. Laughing

You could not learn from 1 or 2 cores?? Now you got enough loose spares to start 2 tranny shops.

If you are going to reverse-engineer rebuilding a VW trans, you may be doing this the long way.

Have you even looked at the VW factory manuals?

And the way you are pressing the mainshaft out of the carrier is a really good way to lose an eyeball. The pin-pusher has to be captured in the press...or it will fly out and put your eye out. The wood blocks for stands are fine if you are in the middle of a desert. You know there is actually a stand you can make designed for that.

And you don't need to heat the carrier to remove the mainshaft bearing. Just tap the damn thing out.

And the ring/pinions combos - now that you have removed them from their components, you have to start from scratch to re-fit them in the case.

Maybe make the trip to Scott's and it will be a nice learning on your part. I hope he will not charge you too much to watch. Laughing

Motivation is not a replacement for skill - my sergeant used to tell me that.

I am happy you are taking the initiative though. Nobody can fault you for trying. My advice to you - DO NOT THROW ANYTHING OUT! ...just yet. Just trust me on that.

stay safe.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 3:12 pm    Post subject: Vapor Blast Reply with quote

Thanks for the advice Nick, much appreciated.

And for reminding me to not be lazy and to raise the press bed..
I'll slack sometimes, that's for sure.


By factory manual, you mean there's something else besides the Bentley?
All the Bentley seems to have is a ton of expensive tools that aren't available anyways.
You see four tools to press off a bearing that you can just use a socket or two and a bearing splitter.


I saved the case, diff, R&P, shims, etc. for each box; at least that I'm keeping.
Didn't mix the parts up..
They should be able to just go back together.
If they need carrier bearings or a pinion bearing there's nothing you can do to prevent the numbers from moving around then anyways, right?


As for my blocks of wood, I'm thinking they might be modified a bit, maybe screw a couple of 2x4s to hold them in place,
But I'm not planning on building more than a few transaxles.
The 456a tool might be easy to build if a guy had his own machine shop...
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Got my case back from vapor-blast over the weekend.
It was $50 for the sandblast, then $100 for the vapor.
Woulda cost a LOT more if i didn't have the major dirt crust sandblasted off first.
This particular case spent it's life on dirt roads. It was BAD.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


There's still some bits of black goo at the bottoms of pits and crevices.
Plus, they doused it with some kind of thin oil afterwards.
Betting that paint won't stick to it even with a tanking or a couple trips thru the dishwasher.
Maybe I'll try the Gibbs on it after it's all re-assembled..? Think
We'll see what Scott says; This case is coming along with me to see him Friday. Very Happy
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



And Jimbo, for the record.. Was able to confirm that Scott likes Bug Light... Cool
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 3:41 pm    Post subject: Gear Carrier Question Reply with quote

Any of you guys know anything about gear carriers?

Which one of these is an 002 gear carrier?
Both?
Will either one of them work with a 091 pinion bearing?
Damn things both have the same part number! Mad

Think Think Think
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 4:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Dummy Learns Transaxle Reply with quote

On the 3rd gear clip that was too tight, sometimes it's easier to machine the gear than try and sand a clip down. I actually preferred machining some of the gears down as I felt they were too rounded where they presented themselves to the clip anyways.

Technically the 091 gear carriers had coring on the front and a oil drip thing inside, but the 091 bearing will be fine in either of those two.

The factory had a manual which the Bentley's took section of to make their books that you see in the Bentley Manuals. There were also factory bulletins on updates and changes that I feel like are where the real gold nuggets can be at times, or at least were the most enjoyable for me to read.

Go to Scott, I would have loved to learn directly from him. I live in the Midwest (Kansas City) so flying out there wasn't in the cards for me back then. If you're in driving distance I would suggest meeting up with him.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Dummy Learns Transaxle Reply with quote

Actually the carrier on the left uses a 113 bearing, the right one uses 002 but can also use 091 without the 4th thrust washer. I prefere to use a 002 bearing with the cage toward 4th.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:01 am    Post subject: Re: Dummy Learns Transaxle Reply with quote

Spent yesterday getting things ready for the BIG DAY Friday.

Stupid Bus has a battery discharge somewhere - likely an old stereo system i did years ago.
Got it charged back up and put a disconnect on.

Drug out the shift-rib (other one is still in the car, unfortunately)
Just in case all of this other stuff ends up being junk maybe we can rip this one apart and it'll be worth messing with?
Plan B..
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Had some aluminum oxide in the blasting cabinet,
So i did a bunch of steel parts like clutch release and cable bracket, etc.
Swapped out to glass beads and finished off shift housing, nose cone, etc.
Going to sneak these into Mom's dishwasher tonight. Shhh
Don't want to be messing around with cleaning at MCM; want to be doing smart stuff.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



The oldest swing box from my car had a rebuild at least 25+ years ago.
Looks like they had nice German FAG mainshaft bearings back then.
Low miles and smooth as silk..
Also,
This shows the 'cage flip' that Scott mentioned, right?
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Kids have surf team tonight, and i have to get everything boxed up,
plus extract the Bus from the back yard.
Plan is to leave day after tomorrow and camp near Fresno.

Scott says i can take pics. Smile

Hopefully this thread can go from:
"Joker Stacks Junk"
To:
"Building a Transaxle".

Cool
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:53 am    Post subject: Re: Dummy Learns Transaxle Reply with quote

You might start a new thread that just contains what scott shows you. That way people dont have to read the first 5 pages and give up before getting some organized info.

Just link the new thread here so people that did make it to page 5 here can continue to the new thread
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 11:48 am    Post subject: Re: Dummy Learns Transaxle Reply with quote

If I wasn't going out of town I`d come out and hang with you guys. Scott is the best at what he does. You won`t be disappointed.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Dummy Learns Transaxle Reply with quote

Pause for family crap going on, flying out of Fresno tommorow, can we kick it back 1 week? Sorry for short notice, I just found out.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:41 am    Post subject: Re: Dummy Learns Transaxle Reply with quote

mcmscott wrote:
Pause for family crap going on, flying out of Fresno tommorow, can we kick it back 1 week? Sorry for short notice, I just found out.


No Sweat, man..

I'll try and get another day off, and arrange child care;
might be weekend after next.

Take care.
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