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epowell Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2015 Posts: 4733 Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 11:46 am Post subject: Re: Did I just screw up these REAR BEARINGS, or is this normal? |
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pathao wrote: |
The dirt I am afraid of is not between #14 - #12 - #13 but between #11 and #16 (or #11 - #14). |
Not sure I understand these numbers.
pathao wrote: |
If you are going to disassemble the driveshaft CV joint. You only got 4 more bolts to remove the hub housing assy. I think the castle nut is the toughest to remove and you are way past that. |
What is the advantage of removing the entire hub?? To regrease everything? _________________ www.edwardpowell.com |
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pathao Samba Member
Joined: November 01, 2012 Posts: 289 Location: Montreal, Canada
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Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 12:00 pm Post subject: Re: Did I just screw up these REAR BEARINGS, or is this normal? |
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epowell wrote: |
Not sure I understand these numbers.
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those are the parts numbers of the exploded view in the tread.
epowell wrote: |
What is the advantage of removing the entire hub?? To regrease everything? |
reach the inner seal. That side of the housing is inside the trailing arm. And the dirt I would be weary about is on that side. Inside the trailing arm but outside the housing. When you pushed the hub shaft maybe something felt between the hub shaft shoulder and seal (or the hub shaft shoulder and the inner bearing inner race). The castle nut compress everything between that shoulder and the wheel hub (inner bearing inner race- spacer- outer bearing inner race). _________________ 1982 AC P27 - 2.0 FI FED - 091 - BA6
English is a second language to me |
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9517 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 1:01 pm Post subject: Re: Did I just screw up these REAR BEARINGS, or is this normal? |
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there IS some slop in a VW rear whell bearing. That and the dirt, wears out that inner seal.
If you have it apart renew the inner seal.
That's taking apart more stuff of course. _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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epowell Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2015 Posts: 4733 Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 1:07 pm Post subject: Re: Did I just screw up these REAR BEARINGS, or is this normal? |
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OK, so yes the trailing arms are very rusty inside, and it is possible that even some chunk of rust could conceivably break off and fall down when thumped. (I didn't have a good feeling about thumping that but a very good mechanic was with me and told me to do it - and said I did it properly >>> but he may not have considered the rust inside the arm).
So when I knocked the stub INWARDS, the end of the stub is directly attached to the CV, and because there is some play in the CVs, that stub is able to move backwards an inch or so...
...normally the wide inner flange of the stub rests snug against the INNER SEAL, correct? But the stub gets pushed INWARD an inch or so, then there is a GAP between the flange and the seal, correct?
...if there would be any loose pieces of flakey rust or dirt on the ceiling of the arm on the inside hovering directly above the flange, then when knocked, theoretically that debris could fall and get lodged in that GAP, correct?
Now, if I don't clean out that GAP from any possible debris, and just go ahead and torque down the castle nut, that debris will get compressed between the flange and seal, then the flange will rotate with driving and damage the seal, then more debris will enter the bearing and kill them slowly (or quickly)?
_________________ www.edwardpowell.com |
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turbotype1 Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2005 Posts: 580 Location: seacoast
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Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 1:26 pm Post subject: Re: Did I just screw up these REAR BEARINGS, or is this normal? |
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Sodo wrote: |
No way.
It should push 100% in to seat, "by hand". |
Sodo, Are we talking about the same thing here? That inner race of the outer bearing doesn't go in 100%... if it did, the outer hub would rub on the outer bearing when everything was tightened back up.
Maybe it's the 100% thing that is getting us cross-threaded, but of all the ones I've seen, That inner race is always protruding out of the bearing "some % "... _________________
117harv wrote: |
This new fad of get it the lowest, or run it with the worst looks, (patina) isn't cool, it's for the hey everyone look at me crowd, i'm driving a beat down ratty, unsafe, VW, how cool am I ???...your not....
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Pissing off the purists since 1997
Wanted: Boyd Motors plate frame
57 Turbo Oval Sliding rag
67 13 window delux walk-thru- now 21
64 all original for the misses
83 Sinka m-TDI diesel |
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pathao Samba Member
Joined: November 01, 2012 Posts: 289 Location: Montreal, Canada
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Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 1:54 pm Post subject: Re: Did I just screw up these REAR BEARINGS, or is this normal? |
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epowell wrote: |
...normally the wide inner flange of the stub rests snug against the INNER SEAL, correct? correct But the stub gets pushed INWARD an inch or so, then there is a GAP between the flange and the seal, correct?correct
...if there would be any loose pieces of flakey rust or dirt on the ceiling of the arm on the inside hovering directly above the flange, then when knocked, theoretically that debris could fall and get lodged in that GAP, correct?correct
Now, if I don't clean out that GAP from any possible debris, and just go ahead and torque down the castle nut, that debris will get compressed between the flange and seal (and it could also be that the dirt goes between the flange and the inner bearing inner race --if the outer bearing inner race move maybe the inner bearing inner race as moved also, who knows), so when you tighten the castle nut you would squeeze the dirt in there. Mmmm not very good.), then the flange will rotate with driving and damage the seal, then more debris will enter the bearing and kill them slowly (or quickly)?correct
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And since you are almost there, thump the stub axle out again and change your inner seal also (if you feel you should) _________________ 1982 AC P27 - 2.0 FI FED - 091 - BA6
English is a second language to me
Last edited by pathao on Fri Sep 17, 2021 1:57 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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epowell Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2015 Posts: 4733 Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 1:55 pm Post subject: Re: Did I just screw up these REAR BEARINGS, or is this normal? |
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Mine protrudes by about 2mm.
_________________ www.edwardpowell.com |
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turbotype1 Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2005 Posts: 580 Location: seacoast
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Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:19 pm Post subject: Re: Did I just screw up these REAR BEARINGS, or is this normal? |
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That to me looks pretty normal... 2 mm isn't a whole lot, BUT, if in fact you did get dirt/rust into the inner seal/bearing, the end result will not be good.
Unfortunately, you have to take it all apart, or at least pull out stub axle to know for sure..... _________________
117harv wrote: |
This new fad of get it the lowest, or run it with the worst looks, (patina) isn't cool, it's for the hey everyone look at me crowd, i'm driving a beat down ratty, unsafe, VW, how cool am I ???...your not....
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Pissing off the purists since 1997
Wanted: Boyd Motors plate frame
57 Turbo Oval Sliding rag
67 13 window delux walk-thru- now 21
64 all original for the misses
83 Sinka m-TDI diesel |
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pathao Samba Member
Joined: November 01, 2012 Posts: 289 Location: Montreal, Canada
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Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:36 pm Post subject: Re: Did I just screw up these REAR BEARINGS, or is this normal? |
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I have spares housings lying around in the basement. I've use them but took them out because ... I probably was over thinking it too much ! Anyway !
Hard to see because of the seal, but I agree. Looks like the outer bearing inner race is "higher" then the bearing rollers (I try wipe it and see the grease on top the rollers).
Now you see the inside seal
That is where if the stub axle shaft did pop out, if rust/dirt was squeeze there ...
if short term, don't over think it. But since you said you where to take the axle shaft out to do the CV, 4 bolts now or everything again later.
Enjoy. _________________ 1982 AC P27 - 2.0 FI FED - 091 - BA6
English is a second language to me |
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epowell Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2015 Posts: 4733 Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:51 pm Post subject: Re: Did I just screw up these REAR BEARINGS, or is this normal? |
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So the only way to really make sure it is really clean behind the inner seal is to remove the 4 bolts and entire housing? No big deal.... I'm up for it. Never done that before but looks pretty easy _________________ www.edwardpowell.com |
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32433 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 3:37 pm Post subject: Re: Did I just screw up these REAR BEARINGS, or is this normal? |
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As with most things in life, just do it correctly the first time and be done with it.
Pull the axles, service them.
Pull the hub, clean it well,
Feel the bearings.
Any roughness, scoring, Burns, rust etc…..
Renew them now.
Shortcuts are often only shortcuts to headaches, grief and a waste of time!
Dave _________________ Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos
Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473
Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537
Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert
Last edited by djkeev on Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:59 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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epowell Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2015 Posts: 4733 Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:57 pm Post subject: Re: Did I just screw up these REAR BEARINGS, or is this normal? |
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djkeev wrote: |
As with most things in life, just do it correctly the first time and be done with it.
Pull the axles, service them.
Pull the hub, clean it well,
Feel the bearings.
Any roughness, scoring, Burns, rust etc…..
Renew them now.
Shortcuts are often only shortcuts to headaches, grief and a waste of time!
Dave |
Sounds good... _________________ www.edwardpowell.com |
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pathao Samba Member
Joined: November 01, 2012 Posts: 289 Location: Montreal, Canada
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Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:58 pm Post subject: Re: Did I just screw up these REAR BEARINGS, or is this normal? |
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epowell wrote: |
So the only way to really make sure it is really clean behind the inner seal is to remove the 4 bolts and entire housing? correct No big deal exactly.... I'm up for it Yes , that's the spirit.. Never done that before but looks pretty easy |
When you will 'thump' the axle shaft, the outer bearing inner race and the inner bearing inner race will get freed/loosed. I would keep them separate and keep the orientation. The spacer may or may not come out, I have see thinner spacer that do come out and thicker one that do not pass thru the rollers bearing.
Then you'll have the inner seal facing you. You did take out the the outer seal and put some grease in there. I'm quit sure the temptation will be too much
Let us know.
Have fun _________________ 1982 AC P27 - 2.0 FI FED - 091 - BA6
English is a second language to me |
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epowell Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2015 Posts: 4733 Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:01 pm Post subject: Re: Did I just screw up these REAR BEARINGS, or is this normal? |
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Does anyone know, is the outer seal the same part number as the inner seal?? _________________ www.edwardpowell.com |
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32433 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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Microbusdeluxe Samba Member
Joined: July 26, 2003 Posts: 977 Location: Bellingham, WA
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Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:21 pm Post subject: Re: Did I just screw up these REAR BEARINGS, or is this normal? |
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The seals are the same. My vote is to take it apart, clean, inspect, regrease. Do this once, right and you'll never have to do it again for a couple thousand miles. Here's a youtube on it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_EyutHLY2A _________________ '69 Squareback RIP
'65 21 window deluxe sold before the price spike, damn it.
'70 rhd bay now a taxi in South Sudan
'81 Westy sold
'89 hightop Westy Joker syncro 16" now with Bostig! |
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epowell Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2015 Posts: 4733 Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:52 pm Post subject: Re: Did I just screw up these REAR BEARINGS, or is this normal? |
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djkeev wrote: |
epowell wrote: |
Does anyone know, is the outer seal the same part number as the inner seal?? |
Yes...... it is the same seal. |
Ahhhhh.... I bought 4 in Czech and only brought over 2. _________________ www.edwardpowell.com |
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9517 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2021 7:52 am Post subject: Re: Did I just screw up these REAR BEARINGS, or is this normal? |
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One thing about the rear hubs to note.
There is a little slop/wiggle.
Once the seals get worn, then this wiggle allows dirt in.
For longest bearing/grease life (water out) it's good to KNOW your seals are sealing.
Take it all apart, at least once every 100 or 150k miles and renew the seals.
Renew the grease too of course and the bearings will last a long long time.
I like needle greasing (out with the old, in with the new) but when I saw a seal that was worn loose around it's seal land.....
If ya wanna squirt down the highway like greased lightning ya gotta KNOW that you have good seals.
turbotype1 wrote: |
Sodo wrote: |
No way.
It should push 100% in to seat, "by hand". |
Sodo, Are we talking about the same thing here? That inner race of the outer bearing doesn't go in 100%... if it did, the outer hub would rub on the outer bearing when everything was tightened back up. |
By 100% I meant "home" or "seated" not "flush".
Yes there's 'lingo' involved. No doubt causing problems.
Excuse me now, I just had my morning cup of coffee..... _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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ZsZ Samba Member
Joined: December 11, 2010 Posts: 1642 Location: Budapest Hungary, Europe
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epowell Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2015 Posts: 4733 Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 12:35 am Post subject: Re: Did I just screw up these REAR BEARINGS, or is this normal? |
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Thanks Zoltan...
...here is an update on my situation:
I started to deal with the OTHER side, and the same thing happened. However with this side it was not necessary to tap/hammer on the stub to get it to slide in - rather, it just pushed back in easily by hand pressure. BUT..... after pushing it in, when I pulled it out again it pulled out that sleeve - just like what happened on the other side. However, with this one I pushing the sleeve back in immediately before any of the rollers had a change to 'escape ' their positions
So I noticed that on both sides the sleeve, when pushing all the way in to the "full stop", both protrude about 2.5mm. So I realise that this is the normal correct position - and there is nothing 'wrong' with either side.
I used the needle and injected a LOT of new grease into the outer bearings, and was able to get some of the old dirty grease out.
My neighbor who is an excellent mechanice implored me NOT to open the CVs to change the grease UNLESS a boot has been damaged. He said that if the boots are OK then no dirt can get in there, and that the original grease, even 40 years old, is still better than the crap they pass off as grease today - so I should just leave them alone.
He also suggested leaving the hub and the inner seal alone also. _________________ www.edwardpowell.com |
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