| Author |
Message |
Peter T.
Samba Member
Joined: October 09, 2006
Posts: 259
Location: Long Island, New York
|
 Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2021 7:30 pm Post subject: Kadron drivability issue |
 |
|
I have Kadrons on my 1776 with stock heads, w100 cam and a Pertronix 009 distributor. compression is between 130-135, fuel pressure is 1.75 and I have maybe 2000 miles on it.
The Issue: There is a slight lope at idle (1000rpm) and when Im coasting I get a slight reverberation at 2000 rpms.pretty annoying. As soon as Im higher rpms it totally smooths out.
What I did so far:
Got the correct jets and 30 Venturi from Kaddie Shack
Even though these were NOS 25 years old I rebuilt them which helped.
Any thoughts? |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Lingwendil
Samba Member
Joined: February 25, 2009
Posts: 3988
Location: Antioch, California, a block from the hood
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Peter T.
Samba Member
Joined: October 09, 2006
Posts: 259
Location: Long Island, New York
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2021 8:25 pm Post subject: Re: Kadron drivability issue |
|
|
Aluminum Empi manifolds, the carbs are Brazilian
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Alstrup
Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 7212
Location: Videbaek Denmark
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 4:19 am Post subject: Re: Kadron drivability issue |
|
|
An "out of the box" set up will not idle perfect. But you can help it.
Set idle timing to 12-13 degrees and adjust max timing to what you want. (Typically 30-32) Readjust sync and linkage, and then idle mix
_________________
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=435993 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Peter T.
Samba Member
Joined: October 09, 2006
Posts: 259
Location: Long Island, New York
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 5:58 am Post subject: Re: Kadron drivability issue |
|
|
I got the idle timing at 10 degrees which gives 35 at full advance.If I go to 12-13 I would get 37-38.
I spent many hours on these carbs between rebuilding them(NOS needle valves leaking)setting the linkage and adjusting the mixture screws.
I don't mind the very slight lope at idle, its the "reverberation" around 2000 rpms while Im driving that is annoying. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
DerrickfromNC1
Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2008
Posts: 1300
Location: North Carolina
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 6:29 am Post subject: Re: Kadron drivability issue |
|
|
| Due you have the balance tube installed? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Peter T.
Samba Member
Joined: October 09, 2006
Posts: 259
Location: Long Island, New York
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 6:44 am Post subject: Re: Kadron drivability issue |
|
|
| DerrickfromNC1 wrote: |
| Due you have the balance tube installed? |
Yes balance tube is installed. I actually pinched it off to see if it would make a difference, It ran a little rougher. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Alstrup
Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 7212
Location: Videbaek Denmark
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 6:50 am Post subject: Re: Kadron drivability issue |
|
|
| Peter T. wrote: |
I got the idle timing at 10 degrees which gives 35 at full advance.If I go to 12-13 I would get 37-38.
I spent many hours on these carbs between rebuilding them(NOS needle valves leaking)setting the linkage and adjusting the mixture screws.
I don't mind the very slight lope at idle, its the "reverberation" around 2000 rpms while Im driving that is annoying. |
1. You need to limit the advance in that distributor, or find one that that the correct advance. If you want to keep it full mechanical I suggest a CB Magnaspark with appropriate wires, or, you need to dive into the one you have, or, ultimately go programmable.
My vocabulary doesnt cover that word "reverberation" You may want to explain in other words what the engine does.
_________________
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=435993 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Peter T.
Samba Member
Joined: October 09, 2006
Posts: 259
Location: Long Island, New York
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 7:17 am Post subject: Re: Kadron drivability issue |
|
|
| Alstrup wrote: |
| Peter T. wrote: |
I got the idle timing at 10 degrees which gives 35 at full advance.If I go to 12-13 I would get 37-38.
I spent many hours on these carbs between rebuilding them(NOS needle valves leaking)setting the linkage and adjusting the mixture screws.
I don't mind the very slight lope at idle, its the "reverberation" around 2000 rpms while Im driving that is annoying. |
1. You need to limit the advance in that distributor, or find one that that the correct advance. If you want to keep it full mechanical I suggest a CB Magnaspark with appropriate wires, or, you need to dive into the one you have, or, ultimately go programmable.
My vocabulary doesnt cover that word "reverberation" You may want to explain in other words what the engine does. |
What I mean by reverberation is a slight vibration around 2000 rpms, as soon as I give it gas it clears up. could I have mismatched idle jets? The ones from Kaddie shack have the numbers ground off.
I thought about swapping in a 010 or 019 distributor. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Alstrup
Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 7212
Location: Videbaek Denmark
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 7:33 am Post subject: Re: Kadron drivability issue |
|
|
OK. That is 90% certain a syncronization issue.
If youre ready to pay for a distributor in that price range I definitely recommend a 123 Bluetooth, or if it has to look "009" the CSP Pacemaker. Then you can also upgrade to use the vacum advance at a later date if you want that (which I can also recommend.)
_________________
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=435993 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Peter T.
Samba Member
Joined: October 09, 2006
Posts: 259
Location: Long Island, New York
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 8:28 am Post subject: Re: Kadron drivability issue |
|
|
| Alstrup wrote: |
OK. That is 90% certain a syncronization issue.
If youre ready to pay for a distributor in that price range I definitely recommend a 123 Bluetooth, or if it has to look "009" the CSP Pacemaker. Then you can also upgrade to use the vacum advance at a later date if you want that (which I can also recommend.) |
From all the reading I have done on kadrons the way to synchronize them is the mixture screw and listening to the rpms.I have had a very tough time adjusting the right side carb because the fan housing is in the way. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
volksworld
Samba Member
Joined: November 26, 2011
Posts: 2529
Location: formerly NY currently NC
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 8:42 am Post subject: Re: Kadron drivability issue |
|
|
| AJ Sims LowBugget website has great tech articles to help you sort out kadrons...more than anyone can realistically post here...but one issue with them is that the location of the idle mixture discharge port/ manifold design tends to get more fuel in one cylinder than the one next to it...so the idle is generally not that smooth favoring 2 cyls over the other 2....usually any of the new needle and seats leak under the normal pressure of a stock fuel pump and require a fuel pressure regulator to stop the dripping...are you using a uni-syn to sync them? you'll need a piece if exhaust tubing to put on top of the carb to clear the air cleaner hold down stud to make the uni syn work...both carbs need to be open the same amount at idle and as they open in addition to the mixtures being adjusted or you wind up with each side of the engine trying to run at a different rpm...iirc the adjustment of the accelerator pump is also critical or the nozzle will drip |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Alstrup
Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 7212
Location: Videbaek Denmark
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 10:41 am Post subject: Re: Kadron drivability issue |
|
|
What Volksworld said. Which is the reason to why I recommend to mod the manifolds. That works better than a balance tube.
Also, you do not sync them on the mixture screws. You sync them on the air consumption, so that you know both butterfly´s are very close to the same. Then you adjust the mixture screws. when you have done that you may have to do it again, especially if the sync was a good deal off.
_________________
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=435993 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
evanfrucht
Samba Member
Joined: July 24, 2016
Posts: 2180
Location: Laurel Canyon, CA
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 11:01 am Post subject: Re: Kadron drivability issue |
|
|
You mess with the mixture screws as part of tuning your idle and such. The mixture screws only meter FUEL.
Synchronization only deals with AIR FLOW and refers the to vaccum pull of each carb throat. You want those numbers to match. Sometimes the idle stop screws need to be adjusted to get the throttle plates all open equally (make sure progression holes are covered accordingly.) I'm not sure if Kadrons have bypass screws or air bleed screws but those can be adjusted last.
Get a genuine German SK Snail tool and completely start over and your problem will be fixed.
_________________
1967 Bug ( the daily rod )
1964 Fury Wagon ( the pavement shredder ) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Peter T.
Samba Member
Joined: October 09, 2006
Posts: 259
Location: Long Island, New York
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 12:25 pm Post subject: Re: Kadron drivability issue |
|
|
I watched the Kaddie Shack videos and read Lo Bugget article on adjusting Kads and neither sync the carbs with the snail due to planeum design of the manifolds. Its basically adjusting by listening.
My biggest issue in adjusting is getting to the left side screw which is next to impossible. That might be the real issue,,,,not being able to truly adjust the left.
Kaddie Shack selling a thumb screw style mixture screw but they are on back order. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Peter T.
Samba Member
Joined: October 09, 2006
Posts: 259
Location: Long Island, New York
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 12:28 pm Post subject: Re: Kadron drivability issue |
|
|
| Also from what I've found is that Kadrons rely on the idle circuit just past 2000 rpms. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Alstrup
Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 7212
Location: Videbaek Denmark
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 12:40 pm Post subject: Re: Kadron drivability issue |
|
|
The fact that they do not use a vacum snail is not the same as it cannot be a beneficial tool, also on Kads. If you use a balance tube you close that while syncing. then when youre done you open it again. Then you recheck and you might have to do a small adjustment again to compensate for the side y side pulsing.
Wrt adjusting the left side. Finger adjusters may make it easier, but with a medium size 11-12" screwdriverit is easy to access the screw from the back side of the fan housing. But if the engine is so much out of adjustment that it is shaking a good deal you may want to do the initial tuning on the right side first. Then stop and adjust the left side to thesame setting and then start and do the final tuning from there.
- This is partly why I want you to get a better distributor, - preferably a programmable, because ignition timing alone at idle can make a major difference, especially if/when the engine is low compression and maybe even have large deck heights. It all matters.
_________________
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=435993 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Peter T.
Samba Member
Joined: October 09, 2006
Posts: 259
Location: Long Island, New York
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 12:56 pm Post subject: Re: Kadron drivability issue |
|
|
| Alstrup wrote: |
The fact that they do not use a vacum snail is not the same as it cannot be a beneficial tool, also on Kads. If you use a balance tube you close that while syncing. then when youre done you open it again. Then you recheck and you might have to do a small adjustment again to compensate for the side y side pulsing.
Wrt adjusting the left side. Finger adjusters may make it easier, but with a medium size 11-12" screwdriverit is easy to access the screw from the back side of the fan housing. But if the engine is so much out of adjustment that it is shaking a good deal you may want to do the initial tuning on the right side first. Then stop and adjust the left side to thesame setting and then start and do the final tuning from there.
- This is partly why I want you to get a better distributor, - preferably a programmable, because ignition timing alone at idle can make a major difference, especially if/when the engine is low compression and maybe even have large deck heights. It all matters. |
Totally see your point.I just got the 3/16" 11" screw driver which worked better.
I just need to wear a long sleeve shirt so I don't burn my arm on the oil filter hoses.  Im going to start with trying out and 019, 010 and a German 009 distributor and see how they work. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mikedrevguy
Samba Member
Joined: October 15, 2008
Posts: 2237
Location: Medford, OR
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 6:22 pm Post subject: Re: Kadron drivability issue |
|
|
| Alstrup wrote: |
| Peter T. wrote: |
I got the idle timing at 10 degrees which gives 35 at full advance.If I go to 12-13 I would get 37-38.
I spent many hours on these carbs between rebuilding them(NOS needle valves leaking)setting the linkage and adjusting the mixture screws.
I don't mind the very slight lope at idle, its the "reverberation" around 2000 rpms while Im driving that is annoying. |
1. You need to limit the advance in that distributor, or find one that that the correct advance. If you want to keep it full mechanical I suggest a CB Magnaspark with appropriate wires, or, you need to dive into the one you have, or, ultimately go programmable.
My vocabulary doesnt cover that word "reverberation" You may want to explain in other words what the engine does. |
I’m running the MagnaSpark with Kads and think it’s great.,
1680 with a w100 .
Use the black bushing , limiting the timing to 15ish degrees. All in by 28, then falls to where it does.
Idles at 1000.
_________________
74 1303 (RevBug): plan for German Look
76 914 with 2260
79 VW Iltis
69 Bwajaja
"The wise speak because they have something to say; while the foolish speak because they have to say something." Plato
Illigitimi non-Carborundum!! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
earthquake
Samba Member
Joined: January 10, 2008
Posts: 3984
Location: SANDY VALLEY, NEVADA
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 10:31 pm Post subject: Re: Kadron drivability issue |
|
|
I seem to recall a empty Pringles potato chip can fits on a K dog pretty good, cut a hole in the bottom of the can to fit a snail type sync tool, that will make it easier to sync a set Kadron's.
eQ
_________________
74 CLASS 11 LOOK-A-LIKE
69 DUNE BUGGY
79 INTERNATIONAL SCOUT II
05 SCION XB SERIES RELEASE 2[#437]
95 Chevy C3500 dually
98 Ford E150
Link to Kelly J. Nolte 3/20/53 - 11/6/08
https://time-zonelabs.blogspot.com/p/about-kelly.html
DEATH TO CHINGERS!
[From a military recruitment poster in the novel "The Stainless Steel Rat" By Harry Harrison] |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
