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fl59bug Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2005 Posts: 1976 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2021 3:11 pm Post subject: Rear Brake Shoes Wet With Gear Oil |
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My car has horrible brakes, even though there is good pedal pressure.
I traced this to the rear brakes being wet with gear oil. My car is a '59 bug, and I'm not running the slingers, which didn't come with my car. I've changed the bearings and seals before, and the brake shoes have plenty of meat on them.
Do the slingers make that big of a difference?
Has anyone else had this problem and if so how did you fix it? I have new seals and brake shoes but don't want to put them on until I get this fixed so that it doesn't repeat.
thanks everyone,
Ted |
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6T5 square Samba Member
Joined: September 15, 2005 Posts: 1081 Location: Dover, DE
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Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2021 3:38 pm Post subject: Re: Rear Brake Shoes Wet With Gear Oil |
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Yes they make a difference. That's why they are there.
Also remember to support the rear axles when jacking up the car. Since they hang down lower than the fill hole on the transmission, oil will flow down the axle to the wheel _________________ John
65 square 1500S (weezer) sold but always on my mind
60 beetle (Ned)
Quoting John Muir -- Open the rear boot. Get out the stool and sit down. Contemplate the air-cooled beauty before you. - How to Keep Your Volkswagen Alive -- Step-By-Step Procedures for the Compleat Idiot |
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rcooled Samba Member
Joined: September 20, 2008 Posts: 2493 Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 3:12 pm Post subject: Re: Rear Brake Shoes Wet With Gear Oil |
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fl59bug wrote: |
I traced this to the rear brakes being wet with gear oil. Do the slingers make that big of a difference? |
Yes, but they're only meant to handle just so much oil. If your brake shoes are completely oil-soaked, it's probably coming from the seal and/or the bearing cover gasket. _________________ '63 Ragtop (current)
'65 Ghia coupe (totaled)
'67 Ghia convertible (current)
'69.5 Ghia convertible and
'62, '63, '65, '69 Bugs (all long gone) |
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ZENVWDRIVER Samba Member
Joined: November 07, 2008 Posts: 3340 Location: N.E. Oklahoma
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Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 4:39 pm Post subject: Re: Rear Brake Shoes Wet With Gear Oil |
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fl59bug wrote: |
My car has horrible brakes, even though there is good pedal pressure.
Do the slingers make that big of a difference?
Ted |
Daaaaa! Study the situation, a little- where will the fluid that comes out of the weep-hole go?
_________________ 5/50, pastel green 11G - SOLD
8/50, gray 11A Beetle
6/52, pastel green 11C - SOLD
11/4/52, black Zwitter - SOLD to my little bro.
1954 Porsche, pre A, with VW 36 horse- SOLD
1/54, black 11C Beetle - TRADED
2/55 Iceland green Beetle, on a 1965 pan
3/55 113 Beetle, stratos silver
1955 Messerschmitt KR175 - SOLD, sadly
1960 single cab
1962 SO33, with SO 42 interior
9/63 Pacific blue, Ghia
'87 Toyota MR2
'02 WestFORDia E-150, GAVE TO OUR SON
All super-heroes, wear a MASK |
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Cusser Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006 Posts: 31272 Location: Hot Arizona
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Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 9:24 pm Post subject: Re: Rear Brake Shoes Wet With Gear Oil |
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MAKE SURE that it's smelly gear oil, and not water-miscible brake fluid before you overthink this. _________________ 1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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slayer61 Samba Member
Joined: June 01, 2021 Posts: 999 Location: CA
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Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 3:19 pm Post subject: Re: Rear Brake Shoes Wet With Gear Oil |
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When doing tear down on my swing axle for the buggy, I found that the side with wet, nasty oily yucky parts had the axle seal installed wrong way 'round. It was no doubt easier to install, but it didn't seal at all. Previous Owners have horrible mechanical skills |
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fl59bug Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2005 Posts: 1976 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:25 pm Post subject: Re: Rear Brake Shoes Wet With Gear Oil |
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Cusser wrote: |
MAKE SURE that it's smelly gear oil, and not water-miscible brake fluid before you overthink this. |
Yeah its definitely pungeant, and plentiful, gear oil. No brake fluid at all.
I changed the seals, and have the slingers on order. They should be here in a few days. The old shoes were completely ruined, but I've replace them with new ones too. |
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fl59bug Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2005 Posts: 1976 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:31 pm Post subject: Re: Rear Brake Shoes Wet With Gear Oil |
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I believe my Bentley manual shows the seals having the flat side facing outward with the u-shaped channel facing inward, and that is how I've installed the one that I've so far replaced (driver's side). I'll get to the passenger side tomorrow. I ended up installing the seal from the inside of the bearing cover since it didn't want to go in from the outer facing side of the cover.
Bentley manual says to recess the seal about .197" into the bearing cover, so that is what I'll shoot for. I'm really hoping this reseal along with adding the slingers will prevent this mess from happening again anytime soon.
Ted |
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fl59bug Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2005 Posts: 1976 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:34 pm Post subject: Re: Rear Brake Shoes Wet With Gear Oil |
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slayer61 wrote: |
When doing tear down on my swing axle for the buggy, I found that the side with wet, nasty oily yucky parts had the axle seal installed wrong way 'round. It was no doubt easier to install, but it didn't seal at all. Previous Owners have horrible mechanical skills |
Agreed, PO cut a jagged hole in the tunnel of my car - didn't even try to be neat with it. They also filled all the rust up with Fiberglass, which I got rid of and did proper rust repair instead. |
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fl59bug Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2005 Posts: 1976 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:17 am Post subject: Re: Rear Brake Shoes Wet With Gear Oil |
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I purchased 2 of the following:
https://www.wolfsburgwest.com/cart/DetailsList.cfm?ID=111501631
As an alternative to the above type of slinger, if I understand correctly, some vws came with another type of slinger and which is a washer of sorts. This slinger/washer sits inside the seal cover behind the seal and serves the same purpose as the external slinger with extension arm. Anyone sell those or can I just use an oversize washer and make my own?
Once again this is for my 1959 Beetle, and I forgot to mention that is has a 1961 transaxle.
Thanks for answering all my questions!
Ted
Last edited by fl59bug on Wed Sep 22, 2021 1:44 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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fl59bug Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2005 Posts: 1976 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 11:59 am Post subject: Re: Rear Brake Shoes Wet With Gear Oil |
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Why are there 2 washers in the WW axle kit I ordered? I know one of them, the smaller one I think, is what the outer thicker spacer rides on, but what about the other one?
Could the larger of them be the alternate washer-type of oil deflector/slinger? If so I'd rather use that than the snouted oil slinger to avoid having to drill into the drum so the snout can drain excess gear oil.
Ted |
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VOLKSWAGNUT Fastest VW Belt Changer
Joined: October 14, 2007 Posts: 11053 Location: Flippin' a Belt........ .... Off-n-On ... NC USA
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Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:18 am Post subject: Re: Rear Brake Shoes Wet With Gear Oil |
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Universal kit
1965 model year the drum slinger was deleted and the bearing cap was redesigned.
New design uses an internal washer deflector , shrouded bearing cap with a weep passage that directs most oil towards a the brake backing plate with a weep hole.
VOLKSWAGNUT wrote: |
Here.. you can see the different parts..
VOLKSWAGNUT wrote: |
"oil deflector"
or convert to the 65-67 style internal deflector and shrouded bearing cap and drill the weep hole in the backing plate.
IMO... 65-67 is a better design and option.
glutamodo wrote: |
and yes, if you drill a hole in the backing plate, you can use the 65 style rear bearing cap.
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_________________ aka Ken {o\!/o}
Its your vehicle- stop askin' for approval-do what YOU like for cryin' out loud
Better to roll em' how you want and wear em' out-than lettin' em' rot out
Its about the going not the showing
Rebuilt to drive not decorate
WANTED: Local Eatin' Joints, Triple D for TheSamba contributions here http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=570510
Search "VOLKSWAGNUT" on YouTube since you cant watch a "certain" BELT change video round here
Usually and often edited |
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fl59bug Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2005 Posts: 1976 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:29 am Post subject: Re: Rear Brake Shoes Wet With Gear Oil |
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Ok thanks Volkswagnut, I'll need to use the drum slinger then, since my car has the earlier housing. I think too I will need to drill out the drum so the tip of the slinger arm can stay in place. Guess I'll get started working on that.
Ted |
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Eric&Barb Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004 Posts: 24671 Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 4:34 pm Post subject: Re: Rear Brake Shoes Wet With Gear Oil |
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Both axle bearing setups can have the outer spacer (#10) worn enough by the inner lip of the axle seal to end up leaking even with a new axle seal installed. Put a straight edge across the outer diameter of the outer spaces and see if there is a slight gap.
_________________ In Stereo, Where Available! |
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fl59bug Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2005 Posts: 1976 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 5:24 pm Post subject: Re: Rear Brake Shoes Wet With Gear Oil |
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Good point Eric & Barb... I replaced the inner and outer spacers with a new set of unknown manufacturing origin (China?), but which I purchased from CIP1, about 6k miles ago. I'll check them again though in the manner in which you described, since new seal kits were also installed at the same time, yet they leaked.
I'm still confused though as to whether it was the seals going bad or the fact I wasn't running the oil slingers that caused my brake shoes to get soaked and be like, only 25% effective at stopping the car!
Some people say the seal alone can stop an oil leak but that without the slinger, if the seal goes bad its all over with.
I've changed out the seals once again, and replaced the rear brake shoes, and the only thing left is to fit the slingers depicted in the 1st drawing you provided.
Ted |
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Eric&Barb Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004 Posts: 24671 Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 5:36 pm Post subject: Re: Rear Brake Shoes Wet With Gear Oil |
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fl59bug wrote: |
Good point Eric & Barb... I replaced the inner and outer spacers with a new set of unknown manufacturing origin (China?), but which I purchased from CIP1, about 6k miles ago. I'll check them again though in the manner in which you described, since new seal kits were also installed at the same time, yet they leaked. |
Good, but even new ones could be a few thousands too small or not polished up properly so they wear out the seal all too soon. Not saying they absolutely are, but with new parts made in who knows where for the lowest bucks... _________________ In Stereo, Where Available! |
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fl59bug Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2005 Posts: 1976 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 11:13 am Post subject: Re: Rear Brake Shoes Wet With Gear Oil |
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Another good point Eric & Barb.
Does anyone have a photo of the old-style slinger installed in a rear brake drum, specifically the where the tube exits the brake drum. I can't find any pictures that show whether the tube exists the outer front edge, or side of the brake drum. Several of the photos I see have the slinger, but don't appear to have an exit hole even drilled! that would make a big mess all over the inside of the drum and I'd be right back to where I started if the new seals don't properly do their job.
I'm ready to drill the hole in my aftermarket drums, but don't want to mess it up and/or drill more than one hole.
Ted |
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Ovally Samba Member
Joined: June 14, 2014 Posts: 476 Location: Belgium
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Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 11:34 am Post subject: Re: Rear Brake Shoes Wet With Gear Oil |
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Regards. _________________ VW Bug Oval 1953
VW Bug 1200 D motor
Porsche 911S MFI 1970
Mazda 929 Hardtop 1977
Mercedes SLC 180 Roadster 2018 |
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VOLKSWAGNUT Fastest VW Belt Changer
Joined: October 14, 2007 Posts: 11053 Location: Flippin' a Belt........ .... Off-n-On ... NC USA
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Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 12:51 pm Post subject: Re: Rear Brake Shoes Wet With Gear Oil |
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I drove a 64 eight years without slingers... Never really had an issue with good seals. Only had a small amount of gear oil residue that would cake up with brake dust near the seal edge that Id clean off once a year ..
IMO the drum slinger is a "just in case" part.
. _________________ aka Ken {o\!/o}
Its your vehicle- stop askin' for approval-do what YOU like for cryin' out loud
Better to roll em' how you want and wear em' out-than lettin' em' rot out
Its about the going not the showing
Rebuilt to drive not decorate
WANTED: Local Eatin' Joints, Triple D for TheSamba contributions here http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=570510
Search "VOLKSWAGNUT" on YouTube since you cant watch a "certain" BELT change video round here
Usually and often edited |
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fl59bug Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2005 Posts: 1976 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 1:21 pm Post subject: Re: Rear Brake Shoes Wet With Gear Oil |
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Many thanks Ovally, a picture is worth at least 1000 words!
Are those new drums that are being sold with the holes already drilled or did someone drill them after purchasing?
Ted |
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