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CVanagon
Samba Member
Joined: November 01, 2020
Posts: 6
Location: BC
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 Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 8:50 am Post subject: Best engine conversion 2016 VW TDI mod by boxeer? |
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1. engine conversion types
Currently I am looking at the online engine
2016 VW TDI vanagon kit for engine. Any thought? Is this going to be better ( lighter, faster, better torque, more reliable, easier install?) then getting a 2.5l Subaru TDI used from donor. Was going back and forth on models of the Subaru vehicles also and a bit confused on exactly what models are the best to go for? Seems like a lot of options and years to choose from. Rebuild engine and cam shaft prior to install?
Any information or direction and thoughts appreciated!
Cvanagon |
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Bleyseng
Samba Member
Joined: July 03, 2005
Posts: 4752
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 9:44 am Post subject: Re: Best engine conversion 2016 VW TDI mod by boxeer? |
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The higher torque numbers scare me=Engine. 2.0L Turbo Inline-4 Diesel · Horsepower. 150 hp @ 4000 rpm · Torque. 236 lb-ft @ 1750
The stock Vanagon transmission was developed for a 95hp/120ftlbs of torque. It means lots of breakage of metal parts inside the transmission.
Plan of swapping in a different transmission too.
So $15k for the TDI
another $5000 to install a transmission
Atleast $20k to change over...
Subaru EJ2.5 runs 165 hp and 167ftlbs of torque which is much easier on the transmission
_________________
70 Ghia Black convert-9/69 build date-stock w/133k 1600 SP-barn find now with a rebuilt tranny and engine
77 Westy 2.0L w/Ljet, Camper Special engine-95hp and with LSD!(sold)
76 Porsche 914 2.1L L20c, 120hp Djet (sold)
87 Syncro Westy Titan Red 2.1L 2 knob 100k miles |
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0cean
Samba Member
Joined: February 29, 2012
Posts: 1149
Location: California
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| Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 12:57 pm Post subject: Re: Best engine conversion 2016 VW TDI mod by boxeer? |
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| CVanagon wrote: |
1. engine conversion types
Currently I am looking at the online engine
2016 VW TDI vanagon kit for engine. Any thought? Is this going to be better ( lighter, faster, better torque, more reliable, easier install?) then getting a 2.5l Subaru TDI used from donor. Was going back and forth on models of the Subaru vehicles also and a bit confused on exactly what models are the best to go for? Seems like a lot of options and years to choose from. Rebuild engine and cam shaft prior to install?
Any information or direction and thoughts appreciated!
Cvanagon |
There is only one way to really go: https://www.boxeer.com/ and http://www.subarugears.com/
Your asking for a lot of work and trouble trying to reinvent the wheel if you do it yourself. Yes its expensive, but all the development is done.
_________________
I'm not a mechanic, I just play one on the internet
Cluster Rebuild:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=569920&highlight=
Left for Dead the Resurrection Story Build:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=613669
(Number of Different Donor VW Vans Body Parts Used: 12)
(Number of completely different vehicles parts used: 3) |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9603
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 1:58 pm Post subject: Re: Best engine conversion 2016 VW TDI mod by boxeer? |
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| Bleyseng wrote: |
| Subaru EJ2.5 runs 165 hp and 167ftlbs of torque which is much easier on the transmission |
Easier on the transmission than a Boxeer; is likely true but incomplete.
How is it driven?
The transaxle is grossly overloaded undef both engines thus tiny changes in driving style will have a significant effect on the longevity.
As do tiny changes in transaxle condition.
Whaddya got in there, got xray vision? Solid tranny or unknown? Big hairy drain magnet, covered with bearing shards that looks like everybody else’s worn out trans?
The overload and variability of the equipment condition practically nullifies any blanket claims that can be made about the platforms.
But claims are made!!
Especially by engine conversion sellers and proponents.
And levels of satisfaction differ too.
One guy might be satisfied with 60,000 miles transaxle life.
Another might drive 5,000 miles per year and it hasn’t busted yet.
Its too soon to claim that the Subaru transmissions last longer than Vanagon transaxles.
Won’t this take some time to prove?
If a guy’s Subaru trans is running in 2021 that doesn’t ensure its good in 2023.
The Subaru drivetrain nudged a slippery little sedan along.
Now its pushing a brick, a much higher duty-cycle.
How long do Subaru trans last driven at 120mph all day long?
The Subaru R&P is visibly smaller than a Vanagon R&P.
For that to work out, it must be built with a higher metallurgy etc.
Which it could be, but do we know this?
Anyway observations are all we can do.
The variables are too much for blanket recommendations.
Plus we’re going to assume the Subaru transaxles “will be maintained” which is a major advantage over the Vanagons which were not.
The Vanagon transaxles were all used/abused, then they got a big engine. 
We kinda don’t really know how long a maintained Vanagon transaxle could last because nobody has a new one and if they did maintain it, we’d have to wait something like 12 or 20 years for the data.
There could be an owner or two that maintained the trans.
And replaced the 3rd/4th hub at 150k miles or so.
Hub failure has been a “known characteristic” for like 20 years.
I knew about it back in the ‘90s.
Someone who ignores a timing belt mileage limitation, then fails a belt is considered a fool.
But drive a Vanagon trans to hub failure? Thats called “Sh*t happens”.
But its not that - its known and ignored = owner failure.
Nobody ever mentions “replace appx 150k miles…..you shoulda known!”.
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Well it all sounds pretty hopeless….
But we’re doing it! With our big engines. And enjoying it. So theres that👍🏽👍🏽
That said, you’d better be quite the gearhead and conscientious, technical driver if you go for the Boxeer. At first (soon) gearbox destruction you’ll be researching the Dual Mass Flywheel options and searching for a top-tier transaxle builder too. With an EJ25 its less urgent but still need to be careful.
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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0cean
Samba Member
Joined: February 29, 2012
Posts: 1149
Location: California
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| Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 2:41 pm Post subject: Re: Best engine conversion 2016 VW TDI mod by boxeer? |
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If going Subaru gears, you can get an EE-20 diesel trans and that way you know it will handle the power. The trans issues "should be taken care of with a diesel trans" No promises anyway you go.
_________________
I'm not a mechanic, I just play one on the internet
Cluster Rebuild:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=569920&highlight=
Left for Dead the Resurrection Story Build:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=613669
(Number of Different Donor VW Vans Body Parts Used: 12)
(Number of completely different vehicles parts used: 3) |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9603
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 6:36 pm Post subject: Re: Best engine conversion 2016 VW TDI mod by boxeer? |
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EE20 diesel trans is highly advisable!
(From someone who’s never seen heard or done it.)
Curious how Subaru cushions the drivetrain and if that monkey business is portable to a Boxeer engine.
So this EE20 trans…. can you just “get one”?
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16859
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 6:52 pm Post subject: Re: Best engine conversion 2016 VW TDI mod by boxeer? |
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| Sodo wrote: |
Its too soon to claim that the Subaru transmissions last longer than Vanagon transaxles.
Won’t this take some time to prove?
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i have to agree with this. having done a few 5 speed swaps, my overall impression is well.... meh
these r+p's in the subaru transmissions run on the coast side. imho not ideal.
add to that so many just swap the r+p on some trans they got cheap and shoveled it into (enter chassis) and they're off. to me, this is like saying "i put a seal in the trans....it's rebuilt
one thing the subaru trans DID give us was some time, and another option.
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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charleslabri
Samba Member
Joined: December 08, 2019
Posts: 615
Location: Nashville/Yosemite
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0cean
Samba Member
Joined: February 29, 2012
Posts: 1149
Location: California
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| Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 3:29 pm Post subject: Re: Best engine conversion 2016 VW TDI mod by boxeer? |
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From my experience, I have had a standard vanagon trans, and a rebuilt Vanagon trans with all the gearing and upgrades. My impression is its just not able to fill the gearing needs and will begin to whine all the time no mater what you do. Then there is the gas usage, which is high even with regearing.
The best solution has been Subaru gears trans because the van is appropriately geared and they are made for the numbers coming from the engine. In the early days, Subaru gears had R&P problems, but they seam to be taken care of.
Cost wise, you can build up a vanagon trans to be something its not able to really comfortably able to achieve for around $4,500-$5,000; or a Subaru gears trans made and geared from the factory for the engine numbers for around the same cost of a full rebuilt. Then you have to pay for the shifting conversion (Around $600-800 i think). For me its a no brainer, yet others here believe otherwise for what ever reason.
P.S. Get the LSD installed. Its worth the money any way you go.
_________________
I'm not a mechanic, I just play one on the internet
Cluster Rebuild:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=569920&highlight=
Left for Dead the Resurrection Story Build:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=613669
(Number of Different Donor VW Vans Body Parts Used: 12)
(Number of completely different vehicles parts used: 3) |
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