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Zeitgeist 13 Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009 Posts: 12103 Location: Port Manteau
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Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:23 pm Post subject: Re: Converting Rear Brakes to Disc |
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The basic design of the drum system has superior holding power during most circumstances, but once they wear, all bets are off for replicating that performance. The current state of the replacement parts market means that you never know whether the shoes, cylinders or drums will perform like factory. My guess is they won't _________________ Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
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Abscate Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014 Posts: 22568 Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:25 am Post subject: Re: Converting Rear Brakes to Disc |
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SoquelDude wrote: |
So, do folks think it's worth converting to rear disc brakes, assuing I use the T4/Eurovan kits to solve issues with the parking brake? |
Fix the stock ones. Rear discs are just stupid bling _________________ .ssS! |
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space Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2017 Posts: 669
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Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:43 am Post subject: Re: Converting Rear Brakes to Disc |
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Abscate wrote: |
SoquelDude wrote: |
So, do folks think it's worth converting to rear disc brakes, assuing I use the T4/Eurovan kits to solve issues with the parking brake? |
Fix the stock ones. Rear discs are just stupid bling |
Couldnt disagree more
1 When I had the drums holding power was nil
2 I never felt confident in the event of a quick stop
3 After replacing all the internals in just under a year, with minimal miles accumulated, shoes had cracks in them
4 I believe that the rears on a vanagon make up more than 1/3 (whatever the common thinking is) of the braking force
5 Ive heard all the arguments for drums but none would have changed my lack of confidence in them (and that makes for a very tense ride)
6 "were they adjusted by someone that knows vanagons?" should never be a reason why they dont have stopping power
7 Lack of parts availability when out on the road, means u could be left stranded while waiting for these obscure parts to show up
Not looking for a argument, but rear discs was one of the best mods Ive done
Lets face it there are less and less vanagon experts every year to work on these dinosaurs
My .02c
T _________________ 82 westy
w:
2.5 JDM Subie
Rear discs |
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designer Samba Member
Joined: November 05, 2009 Posts: 484 Location: Idaho-but just the tip
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Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 7:27 am Post subject: Re: Converting Rear Brakes to Disc |
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space wrote: |
Couldnt disagree more
1 When I had the drums holding power was nil
2 I never felt confident in the event of a quick stop
3 After replacing all the internals in just under a year, with minimal miles accumulated, shoes had cracks in them
4 I believe that the rears on a vanagon make up more than 1/3 (whatever the common thinking is) of the braking force
5 Ive heard all the arguments for drums but none would have changed my lack of confidence in them (and that makes for a very tense ride)
6 "were they adjusted by someone that knows vanagons?" should never be a reason why they dont have stopping power
7 Lack of parts availability when out on the road, means u could be left stranded while waiting for these obscure parts to show up
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i agree here. I wonder if the person above who put the burley's on and wants to change them did it themselves and didn't quite get it right. i jacked with my drums enough that i ran out of knuckles to bleed and got the burleys. Had them put on by a pro and i get about a 3-4 click e brake stop on hills. I don't measure the degree of the hill and all that - they work. my drums never held.
We roll loaded most of the time, especially when i'm pulling 3 full size dirt bikes.
and they look killer ... bling bling sucka. _________________ __________
87 Syncro Westy : 2.5l
"It is that annoying, accelerating downhill so I can make it up the next hill in the same gear. Foot to floor hoping I can get out of the way of other cars getting onto the highway." - somebody on here around 2013. |
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bobbyblack Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2015 Posts: 4333 Location: United States, Iowa
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Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 7:42 am Post subject: Re: Converting Rear Brakes to Disc |
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Burley changed the design and components around the time the poster above got theirs. I wouldn't be surprised if they got version 1, which were not the best at E-Brake. _________________ '87 Westy 'Flossie','86 Westy 'R1','86 tintop GL - Subi2.2 'J2','83.5 stock tintop L 'ZoomBus','74 Karmann Ghia, '63 Notch |
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kamzcab86 Samba Moderator
Joined: July 26, 2008 Posts: 7893 Location: Arizona
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Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 7:42 am Post subject: Re: Converting Rear Brakes to Disc |
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space wrote: |
Abscate wrote: |
Fix the stock ones. Rear discs are just stupid bling |
Couldnt disagree more
1 When I had the drums holding power was nil
2 I never felt confident in the event of a quick stop
3 After replacing all the internals in just under a year, with minimal miles accumulated, shoes had cracks in them
4 I believe that the rears on a vanagon make up more than 1/3 (whatever the common thinking is) of the braking force
5 Ive heard all the arguments for drums but none would have changed my lack of confidence in them (and that makes for a very tense ride)
6 "were they adjusted by someone that knows vanagons?" should never be a reason why they dont have stopping power
7 Lack of parts availability when out on the road, means u could be left stranded while waiting for these obscure parts to show up
Not looking for a argument, but rear discs was one of the best mods Ive done
Lets face it there are less and less vanagon experts every year to work on these dinosaurs
My .02c
T |
Ditto.👍🏻
If I spent money replacing all components in the drums and having them professionally adjusted (repeatedly) with no improvement (on a van that has better-than-factory front discs), yet swapping to rear discs did make a difference, the discs are sure as hell not "just stupid bling". Every van is different, and in my 4500-pound Westy's case, it was a safety issue, not a make-the-van-even-prettier issue.
Golf 1 owners switch their little drums (which work very well) to discs all the time, and have been for decades... never, ever have I encountered even one person who has said, "Dude, they're just bling". The van world sure is different... _________________ ~Kamz
1986 Cabriolet: www.Cabby-Info.com
1990 Vanagon Westfalia: Old Blue's Blog
2016 Golf GTI S
"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance." - 孔子 |
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bajabones Samba Member
Joined: April 17, 2019 Posts: 133 Location: Tacoma, WA
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Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:12 am Post subject: Re: Converting Rear Brakes to Disc |
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What’s wrong with stupid bling?
I am proud of my bling _________________ 1990 Syncro Doka
2.1 DJ
Triple Knob
Solid shaft |
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MartinJS Samba Member
Joined: December 30, 2019 Posts: 88 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:48 am Post subject: Re: Converting Rear Brakes to Disc |
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Just installing the new version Burley rear discs and, while I haven't experienced them, I can say the new handbrake system puts a heck of a lot of clamping force on those rear discs. If I didn't know there'd been issues in the past, I would in no way expect them with this set up. I'll find out when it's on the road though.
My reason for going rear discs and upgraded front discs is twofold. First I wanted bigger front discs as I'm doing an engine conversion with more power and wanted more stopping power to match.
The second reason I haven't seen mentioned in this post (doesn't mean it wasn't). I have for decades (since the '70's) driven through the Canadian rockies with many different vehicles; some disc-drum, some disc-disc (never with a vehicle drums front and rear although I've owned several) and one area where rear discs significantly outperform rear drums is in fade on long downhill mountain stretches (which go on for more than 500km dropping down into Vancouver BC).
After a few kms of keeping vehicle speed under control with gearing and intermittent brake application, drums just disappear. They fade much more than discs.
While the front discs are usually up to the job of slowing the vehicle by themselves, the entire dynamic balance of the vehicle under braking is thrown off making corners and traffic an unwelcome and potentially dangerous proposition. In my experience, the effect is multiplied in the wet (for several reasons) and worse with a heavier vehicle.
In my opinion, rear discs are just safer and more reliable for a vehicle which will do highway miles in mountainous regions. Not an effect I see day to day here on the prairies, but get into some long downhills and I'll take discs every time. |
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SoquelDude Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2021 Posts: 143 Location: Samta Cruz, CA
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Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:28 am Post subject: Re: Converting Rear Brakes to Disc |
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MartinJS wrote: |
Just installing the new version Burley rear discs and, while I haven't experienced them, I can say the new handbrake system puts a heck of a lot of clamping force on those rear discs. If I didn't know there'd been issues in the past, I would in no way expect them with this set up. I'll find out when it's on the road though.
My reason for going rear discs and upgraded front discs is twofold. First I wanted bigger front discs as I'm doing an engine conversion with more power and wanted more stopping power to match.
The second reason I haven't seen mentioned in this post (doesn't mean it wasn't). I have for decades (since the '70's) driven through the Canadian rockies with many different vehicles; some disc-drum, some disc-disc (never with a vehicle drums front and rear although I've owned several) and one area where rear discs significantly outperform rear drums is in fade on long downhill mountain stretches (which go on for more than 500km dropping down into Vancouver BC).
After a few kms of keeping vehicle speed under control with gearing and intermittent brake application, drums just disappear. They fade much more than discs.
While the front discs are usually up to the job of slowing the vehicle by themselves, the entire dynamic balance of the vehicle under braking is thrown off making corners and traffic an unwelcome and potentially dangerous proposition. In my experience, the effect is multiplied in the wet (for several reasons) and worse with a heavier vehicle.
In my opinion, rear discs are just safer and more reliable for a vehicle which will do highway miles in mountainous regions. Not an effect I see day to day here on the prairies, but get into some long downhills and I'll take discs every time. |
Thanks, MartinJS. Your reasons for converting to rear disc brakes match mine, since I didn't like the performance (or lack thereof) of the drum brakes in my previous Type 2 vans when I would go down long slopes. I'm also concerned about the performance of the e-brake. Since many folks have felt the e-brakes on the VW-Audi kits were too soft, I'll look at the Burley kit, especially since they have been praised in many posted on this topic.
One newbie question to all: Are the front disc brake kits that have the VW-Audi parts considered "big brakes"? |
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MartinJS Samba Member
Joined: December 30, 2019 Posts: 88 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:56 pm Post subject: Re: Converting Rear Brakes to Disc |
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SoquelDude wrote: |
MartinJS wrote: |
Just installing the new version Burley rear discs and, while I haven't experienced them, I can say the new handbrake system puts a heck of a lot of clamping force on those rear discs. If I didn't know there'd been issues in the past, I would in no way expect them with this set up. I'll find out when it's on the road though.
My reason for going rear discs and upgraded front discs is twofold. First I wanted bigger front discs as I'm doing an engine conversion with more power and wanted more stopping power to match.
The second reason I haven't seen mentioned in this post (doesn't mean it wasn't). I have for decades (since the '70's) driven through the Canadian rockies with many different vehicles; some disc-drum, some disc-disc (never with a vehicle drums front and rear although I've owned several) and one area where rear discs significantly outperform rear drums is in fade on long downhill mountain stretches (which go on for more than 500km dropping down into Vancouver BC).
After a few kms of keeping vehicle speed under control with gearing and intermittent brake application, drums just disappear. They fade much more than discs.
While the front discs are usually up to the job of slowing the vehicle by themselves, the entire dynamic balance of the vehicle under braking is thrown off making corners and traffic an unwelcome and potentially dangerous proposition. In my experience, the effect is multiplied in the wet (for several reasons) and worse with a heavier vehicle.
In my opinion, rear discs are just safer and more reliable for a vehicle which will do highway miles in mountainous regions. Not an effect I see day to day here on the prairies, but get into some long downhills and I'll take discs every time. |
Thanks, MartinJS. Your reasons for converting to rear disc brakes match mine, since I didn't like the performance (or lack thereof) of the drum brakes in my previous Type 2 vans when I would go down long slopes. I'm also concerned about the performance of the e-brake. Since many folks have felt the e-brakes on the VW-Audi kits were too soft, I'll look at the Burley kit, especially since they have been praised in many posted on this topic.
One newbie question to all: Are the front disc brake kits that have the VW-Audi parts considered "big brakes"? |
I owned a 1976 Westfalia bay window in the early '80's. Nice fuel injected ?2L engine was quite drivable, decent brakes with front disc rear drum. Drove it to Vancouver once (about 16-19 hrs total drive time) and on the descent into Vancouver the rear drums disappeared in the first half hour on the downhill segment (which is close to 4 hours).
Then it started raining and it turned out they had been doing something. Vehicle was understeering horribly on downhill corners which required brakes. One of my most memorable drives (not for good reasons). Was the first time I realized just how much superior disc brakes are.
I have put the Burley front brakes on my Vanagon also. Again, hasn't been on the road yet so can't comment on the performance but the discs, callipers, and pads are significantly more robust than the VW parts they replace.
I know suspension engineers talk about 'swept area' when talking about disc brakes. The Burley brakes have a significantly bigger disc and pad area. Can't say how much but it's visibly no contest. I don't know if that makes them 'big brakes' as I'm not sure what the definition is but I'm very confident the braking performance will be better on every parameter from stopping power to fade resistance.
So far I'm very impressed with the quality, design, and implementation of the Burley brake system. Again, haven't driven them yet but I'll be shocked if they aren't a major upgrade over the stock system especially for the kind of highway driving I plan on doing. |
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Crankey Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2004 Posts: 2652
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Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:35 pm Post subject: Re: Converting Rear Brakes to Disc |
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bajabones wrote: |
What’s wrong with stupid bling?
I am proud of my bling |
Yeah !
However when you buy stuff that's supposed to improve things and they don't...boy you feel dumb.
I never felt like my brakes were bad. I think it's my defensive driving. I've never come close to tapping any object with my truck.
I got the SA front brakes because the wheel mount face moved inboard a little and could make a difference fitting wheels. Hope the go westy rear disc doesn't limit my persuit of deep blinging rear wheel lips. |
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9517 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:37 am Post subject: Re: Converting Rear Brakes to Disc |
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No question discs outperform drums in almost every way (stopping power)
And the maintenance is much easier.
They cool better, and if wet, they dry very quickly to brake as a dry brake.
The old Audi car conversion (rear discs) had great performance as a footbrake.
VW drums can work well but ya gotta be always fussing with them to keep them working well.
People get tired of it.
The parking brake mechanism on the old Audi discs was sorely lacking.
It could not produce enough squeeze on the pads to hold a 2500 lbs car, much less a 5,000 lb van.
That's it.
It's nothing to do with disc.vs.drum.
It was simply a poor parking brake mechanism on the little Audi caliper that was much worse on the Van.
I added a bunch of leverage to it, then it just slips the internal auto-adjust mechanism, and doesn't increase the holding power.
For those with Audi brakes, it's kinda hopeless, ya just gotta flush the mod and get the T4/Eurovan brake (I think).
And certainly don't buy any more of those Audi car brake kits (for the rear).
Here's the geekspeek, with diagrams, arrows etc.Rear disc upgrade = NO parking brake!
I polished this turd for a long time and it never did shine.
There was much confusion added WRT cables, as if cables could solve it.
New cables could remedy a bad cable problem but that's an entirely different problem.
My F150 has drum brakes inside the rear discs. It's a "small drum".
Drum brakes are self-energizing, in that the torque increases the holding power, especially static (from stopped).
Once they glaze over they don't hold very well though. They're quite a bit smaller than VW rear drums.
"How can you glaze a parking brake?" is a valid question.
Well then maybe you simply haven't studied the situation because it's veruy possible (and likely) to glaze a parking brake !👺
"Luckily" all the trucks nowadays have "P" for park.
As for my van I'm planning on the T4 rear discs, I just gotta get the parts together.
I keep putting it off, because I have developed a wheel chock habit - there's a perfect space for it by the driver seat.
(and I have a long list of other tasks too). _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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danfromsyr Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2004 Posts: 15129 Location: Syracuse, NY
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Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:26 am Post subject: Re: Converting Rear Brakes to Disc |
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if your drum brakes don't hold in 3clicks they are sorely out of adjustment.
even on my early model van with the less leverage hand brake. it'll hold on any hill/mtn in 3-4 clicks. and the 4th is a mighty hard pull.
people just don't want to be bothered to get the OEM rears properly set in.
ohh and I'm not here to push arcing the shoes.. never have done that in my life.
also to note that larger diameter tires reduce the effectiveness of your brakes by a direct proportion to the increase in diameter (leverage)
rear discs will give you a better day to day pedal feel as they are closer to the surface, less free movement before engaging than a drum.
I do say that I'm interested in the T4 rear discs once I get everything else up graded. _________________
Abscate wrote: |
These are the reasons we have words like “wanker” |
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RolandD Samba Member
Joined: January 15, 2017 Posts: 247 Location: Menomonee Falls, Wis
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Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:27 pm Post subject: Re: Converting Rear Brakes to Disc |
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please forgive me for going off topic, but it is relevant..
I was caught after a 5" rainfall in my 63 baja with many roads flooded. Most of the main roads where closed, but I found a residential road that I thought I could make it thru- and out of sight if I failed. The water was up to the top of the headlights, but when I got nervous and goosed it, came to the base of the windshield. After I made it out I expected troubles with my all drum brakes, but they stopped like usual. Go figure.
Crazy Roland |
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RGS Paul Samba Member
Joined: April 20, 2007 Posts: 662 Location: Los Alamos, NM
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Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 9:02 am Post subject: Re: Converting Rear Brakes to Disc |
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Can someone confirm that the new Burley kit is T4 VW based? I asked Burley and received no information.
Thanks,
Paul _________________ '87 Syncro 7-Pass. Adventure Touring Vehicle
"Simplicate, then add lightness." Colin Chapman |
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Steve M. Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2013 Posts: 6798 Location: Fort Lauderdale, Fl.
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Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 9:40 am Post subject: Re: Converting Rear Brakes to Disc |
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RGS Paul wrote: |
Can someone confirm that the new Burley kit is T4 VW based? I asked Burley and received no information.
Thanks,
Paul |
I have gotten plenty of feedback from him in the past when asking him something and not spending money with him so he is not avoiding you.
Burley was probably just too dam busy for his own good to see your question.
I assume you read his webpage on them stating that the are "new Generation"
https://burleymotorsports.net/product/rear-disc-brake-kit-new-generation/
They are the Eurovan brakes. Now you notice the Eurovan rotors have an angle to them on from the top of the hat down to the brim. What i did when I had my wheel hubs machined down to size was to tell the machine shop to match the shape of the rotor by putting a chamfer on the outside diameter when they bring it down to fit inside the rotor. This centers the rotor on the wheel hub.
It would center even if they did not do this as long as they got the diameter correct which If I remember Burley gives the correct diameter to machine the hub down to.
I just wanted a "matched" fit because that is just me.
You need to buy the longer studs to get replaced on the hub as well for safely mounting the wheel.
I have not installed mine yet as I am waiting for my drums or shoes to wear out. They are still good and stopping the vehicle, but i do not want to go through the procedure for getting the drum brakes set-up to work like they should. I want the easier maintenance! _________________ This free advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.
There are seven days in a week. Someday is not one of them. |
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RGS Paul Samba Member
Joined: April 20, 2007 Posts: 662 Location: Los Alamos, NM
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Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 10:02 am Post subject: Re: Converting Rear Brakes to Disc |
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Thanks Steve,
I don't know how I could have been more direct, I asked twice. I appreciate the confirmation.
Paul _________________ '87 Syncro 7-Pass. Adventure Touring Vehicle
"Simplicate, then add lightness." Colin Chapman |
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jalan Samba Member
Joined: December 11, 2009 Posts: 75 Location: Underwood, Washington
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Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:58 pm Post subject: Re: Converting Rear Brakes to Disc |
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I put the GW rear disc kit on my syncro and now have about 6k miles on it. I love it. Not only does the parking brake hold great but the van stops faster and fade free from highway speeds even when loaded. I also noticed that the pedal pressure is reduced from the former drum brakes.
I thought I might want to put the larger booster in as I am also running a big brake kit on the front but have decided I don't need it after all.
I debated between the Burley, Small Car and GW rear disc kit. The Small car kit requires 16" wheels where as the other two will also work with 15". Both the Burley and Small Car kits require that the hubs be machined and neither come with dust shields. The GW kit is bolt on and only requires one small hole be drilled for an added parking brake return spring and a couple for cable retaining clamps. Besides the price advantage it is well thought out and easy to install. _________________ 1989 Syncro Hardtop, 2.5 '07 Subaru
1991 Carat Hardtop
1995 High Top Eurovan Syncro
Last edited by jalan on Sat Sep 25, 2021 7:25 am; edited 1 time in total |
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space Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2017 Posts: 669
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Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 5:42 am Post subject: Re: Converting Rear Brakes to Disc |
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jalan wrote: |
I put the GW rear disc kit on my syncro and now have about 6k miles on it. I love it. Not only does the parking brake hold great but the van stops faster and fade free from highway speeds even when loaded. I also noticed that the pedal pressure is reduced from the former drum brakes.
I thought I might want to put the larger booster in as I am also running a big brake kit on the front but have decided I don't need it after all.
I debated between the Burley, Small Car and GW kit. The Small car kit requires 16" wheels where as the other two will also work with 15". Both the Burley and Small Car kits require that the hubs be machined and neither come with dust shields. The GW kit is bolt on and only requires one small hole be drilled for an added parking brake return spring and a couple for cable retaining clamps. Besides the price advantage it is well thought out and easy to install. |
Same results different vender
After changing out the drums I dont feel the need for BBK in front _________________ 82 westy
w:
2.5 JDM Subie
Rear discs |
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syncro surf Samba Member
Joined: June 06, 2017 Posts: 189 Location: Maine
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Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:43 am Post subject: Re: Converting Rear Brakes to Disc |
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RGS Paul wrote: |
Can someone confirm that the new Burley kit is T4 VW based? I asked Burley and received no information. |
In my experience, if you leave him a voicemail he will call you back |
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