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CB 650 Springs - Which Spring Compressor?
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fl59bug
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 7:59 am    Post subject: CB 650 Springs - Which Spring Compressor? Reply with quote

Hello all,

Does anyone have a recommendation for a valve spring compressor capable of compressing the 650 springs in my Super Pro heads? I need to take the inner springs out in preparation for firing up, which the Engle FK46 cam instructions recommend doing.

The table top spring compressor I have moves around quite a bit, since I don't have a surface capable of bolting it to. I wonder if there is something out there akin to the LS engine spring compressor that compresses two springs at a time, but made for a vw performance spring.

I'm thinking this one might work:

https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/6504.htm

thanks

Ted
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BFB
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 8:22 am    Post subject: Re: CB 650 Springs - Which Spring Compressor? Reply with quote

I vice grip my spring compressor to a metal table, holds good enough I bent part of it trying to break loose some springs on some heads that looked like they went down with the titanic.
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fl59bug
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 9:05 am    Post subject: Re: CB 650 Springs - Which Spring Compressor? Reply with quote

richardcraineum wrote:
I vice grip my spring compressor to a metal table, holds good enough I bent part of it trying to break loose some springs on some heads that looked like they went down with the titanic.


Lol.... the vice grip idea sounds good, I'll give it a whirl. Thanks Richard

Ted
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 11:31 pm    Post subject: Re: CB 650 Springs - Which Spring Compressor? Reply with quote

Quote:
I'm thinking this one might work:

https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/6504.htm


I have the Schley compressor that you link to and it works very well, i use it to compress my K-800´s in my comp eliminators. The only problem for me is that pauter rockers use a thicker stud, so i have to swap those out everytime i need to use the compressor, but for standard rockers that is not necessary...
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fl59bug
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:39 am    Post subject: Re: CB 650 Springs - Which Spring Compressor? Reply with quote

Good to hear, thank you. I've also ordered up one of those. I like how it includes the wedge to hold the spring down so I can let go of the wratchet and do other things if needed.

Ted
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:35 pm    Post subject: Re: CB 650 Springs - Which Spring Compressor? Reply with quote

I use the cheapo Empi/Latest Rage bench mount spring compressor that I have beefed up.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:58 pm    Post subject: Re: CB 650 Springs - Which Spring Compressor? Reply with quote

I use a home made version of the bench top compressor. I place it on my work bench and use a couple of large C-clamps to hold it in place. I can do K800 (chevy size) valve springs with it but that DOES require a cheater bar on the handle is always kinda sketchy. Laughing
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fl59bug
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:34 am    Post subject: Re: CB 650 Springs - Which Spring Compressor? Reply with quote

Thanks guys. I have the table top unit and would like to try the c clamp idea a couple of you have suggested. I'm optimistic though that the rocker shaft mounted compressor with wedge will be of great help. It should be here by Thursday.

I'm hoping the wedge will allow me to keep the spring compressed while I use my Gene Berg lash cap puller to pop the CB lash caps off, followed by removing the springs.

Then too, with the springs removed I can also use my Moroso checking springs to do a precise 1/2 lift rocker arm geometry check.

Ted
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:09 am    Post subject: Re: CB 650 Springs - Which Spring Compressor? Reply with quote

If yours has those chamber centering blocks you might wanna smooth the edges abit so they dont mark up the chambers as they dont always play nice while centering.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:56 pm    Post subject: Re: CB 650 Springs - Which Spring Compressor? Reply with quote

jpaull wrote:
If yours has those chamber centering blocks you might wanna smooth the edges abit so they dont mark up the chambers as they dont always play nice while centering.


Yes.....I have that bench top model. I took the four metal blocks out with an angle grinder on day 1. I use a couple of blocks of urethane or hard rubber. Worka fine. Ray
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 3:41 pm    Post subject: Re: CB 650 Springs - Which Spring Compressor? Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:
jpaull wrote:
If yours has those chamber centering blocks you might wanna smooth the edges abit so they dont mark up the chambers as they dont always play nice while centering.


Yes.....I have that bench top model. I took the four metal blocks out with an angle grinder on day 1. I use a couple of blocks of urethane or hard rubber. Worka fine. Ray


Great idea, Smart man!!
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Wreck
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:29 pm    Post subject: Re: CB 650 Springs - Which Spring Compressor? Reply with quote

I use a drill press , a simple attachment made from 25x25 steel box , that gets pressed down by the chuck , then a simple stand made from a piece of pine and 2 pine blocks that the valves sit on .
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 5:00 pm    Post subject: Re: CB 650 Springs - Which Spring Compressor? Reply with quote

jpaull wrote:
raygreenwood wrote:
jpaull wrote:
If yours has those chamber centering blocks you might wanna smooth the edges abit so they dont mark up the chambers as they dont always play nice while centering.


Yes.....I have that bench top model. I took the four metal blocks out with an angle grinder on day 1. I use a couple of blocks of urethane or hard rubber. Worka fine. Ray


Great idea, Smart man!!


whaaat??? why would you have a problem with those blocks, you can change out valve springs and at the same time dimple your combustion chambers for better swirl or whatever dumpling is supposed to accomplish...
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 7:56 pm    Post subject: Re: CB 650 Springs - Which Spring Compressor? Reply with quote

Wreck wrote:
I use a drill press


Yep, same. I made a wood angle plate.
I also like to use it to check spring travel.
Two in one
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:00 pm    Post subject: Re: CB 650 Springs - Which Spring Compressor? Reply with quote

modok wrote:
Wreck wrote:
I use a drill press


Yep, same. I made a wood angle plate.
I also like to use it to check spring travel.
Two in one


Same Very Happy Very Happy
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 12:36 pm    Post subject: Re: CB 650 Springs - Which Spring Compressor? Reply with quote

I have never removed inner springs for break-in.

If the cam can't handle dual springs on break-in: It never will last anyways.

Seems like an old wives tale to me.

Cam break-in has more to do with matching cam/lifter types, and kiss patterns more than anything else.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 4:42 pm    Post subject: Re: CB 650 Springs - Which Spring Compressor? Reply with quote

Ohio Tom wrote:
I have never removed inner springs for break-in.

If the cam can't handle dual springs on break-in: It never will last anyways.

Seems like an old wives tale to me.

Cam break-in has more to do with matching cam/lifter types, and kiss patterns more than anything else.


I'm only going by what is on the Engle cam instructions:


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:15 am    Post subject: Re: CB 650 Springs - Which Spring Compressor? Reply with quote

fl59bug wrote:
Ohio Tom wrote:
I have never removed inner springs for break-in.

If the cam can't handle dual springs on break-in: It never will last anyways.

Seems like an old wives tale to me.

Cam break-in has more to do with matching cam/lifter types, and kiss patterns more than anything else.


I'm only going by what is on the Engle cam instructions:


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


...pretty tough to argue that.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:21 am    Post subject: Re: CB 650 Springs - Which Spring Compressor? Reply with quote

I would like to know where Engle got their definitive 98% figure...

So they have been keeping track of every single cam failure for the last 60 years, and have somehow been able to figure out why it happened each time Razz Rolling Eyes Laughing
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:44 am    Post subject: Re: CB 650 Springs - Which Spring Compressor? Reply with quote

Not hard to argue at all really:

That recommendation is about 30yrs old.
represents a "disclaimer" when you call them about a failed cam.

Been breaking-in cams on dual springs for a long time myself.
Failures can happen, but not necessarily due to spring pressure. Every time I have seen a cam fail, was due to un-matched lifters.

I have Never had an SLR cam/lifter fail. Even with K-800 springs and .605" lift on a Pro-stock motor.
Lifters look like polished mirrors after break-in. 3 seasons later, cam has lost less than .001" lift. Hard to argue with that too....

Why do SLR (Steve Long Racing cams) combos work so well?
He grinds everything (even new lifters get re-ground to match the cam radius).
He also has a very smooth finish on the lobes and lifters. No chatter or un-even surfaces. This means things don't have to wear-in very much at all. The surfaces start pretty much where they are going to end up after break-in.


I have my theories:
LIfter radii must match cam face. So the contact patch is as big as possible with the lobe of the cam. If mis-matched, will fail 100%. If you take the time to "blue" the lifter face to the cam, you will be surprised at how badly "new" lifters can be.

Finish of the lifter and cam lobe must be good. Crappy chatter from loose cam grinding machines, stones that need dressed, or taking too much on the final grind... Can lead to failure. Most Engle cams fall into the "rough finish" category. If you can see the marks thru the Black oxide, then it's too rough. It should look smooth to the eye.

Material hardness matching. Everyone says Scat lifters are junk. Well they need to be run on a Scat cam blank and it will work just fine.


I have never seen any sort of failure correlation to spring pressure.

Just my thoughts...
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