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fl59bug Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2005 Posts: 1976 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 7:59 am Post subject: CB 650 Springs - Which Spring Compressor? |
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Hello all,
Does anyone have a recommendation for a valve spring compressor capable of compressing the 650 springs in my Super Pro heads? I need to take the inner springs out in preparation for firing up, which the Engle FK46 cam instructions recommend doing.
The table top spring compressor I have moves around quite a bit, since I don't have a surface capable of bolting it to. I wonder if there is something out there akin to the LS engine spring compressor that compresses two springs at a time, but made for a vw performance spring.
I'm thinking this one might work:
https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/6504.htm
thanks
Ted |
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BFB Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2014 Posts: 1693
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Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 8:22 am Post subject: Re: CB 650 Springs - Which Spring Compressor? |
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I vice grip my spring compressor to a metal table, holds good enough I bent part of it trying to break loose some springs on some heads that looked like they went down with the titanic. _________________ Forced induction can overcome a lot of obsticles that gets in it's way
"You are the Engineer and the Mechanic.
Build it your way not the way someone else does it. Their way might not work for you." - clonebug
An interesting thing happens in forums where everyone starts parroting the same thing and "common knowledge" takes over.
“ The monkey see monkey do mentality seems to run deep in VW people. "Gene Berg said it was so 30 years ago so thats the way it is" “ - bdkw1 |
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fl59bug Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2005 Posts: 1976 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 9:05 am Post subject: Re: CB 650 Springs - Which Spring Compressor? |
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richardcraineum wrote: |
I vice grip my spring compressor to a metal table, holds good enough I bent part of it trying to break loose some springs on some heads that looked like they went down with the titanic. |
Lol.... the vice grip idea sounds good, I'll give it a whirl. Thanks Richard
Ted |
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Tobias Bylund Samba Member
Joined: December 10, 2007 Posts: 202 Location: Varberg - Sweden
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Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 11:31 pm Post subject: Re: CB 650 Springs - Which Spring Compressor? |
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I have the Schley compressor that you link to and it works very well, i use it to compress my K-800´s in my comp eliminators. The only problem for me is that pauter rockers use a thicker stud, so i have to swap those out everytime i need to use the compressor, but for standard rockers that is not necessary... |
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fl59bug Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2005 Posts: 1976 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:39 am Post subject: Re: CB 650 Springs - Which Spring Compressor? |
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Good to hear, thank you. I've also ordered up one of those. I like how it includes the wedge to hold the spring down so I can let go of the wratchet and do other things if needed.
Ted |
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stealth67vw Samba Member
Joined: January 22, 2004 Posts: 1851 Location: Grass Pants, Orygun
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Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:35 pm Post subject: Re: CB 650 Springs - Which Spring Compressor? |
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I use the cheapo Empi/Latest Rage bench mount spring compressor that I have beefed up. _________________ John Bates
JB Machining Services
1967 street Bug 2276 w/ 48 IDAs, 2020lbs with driver
7.76 @ 89.55mph 1/8 mile
12.34 and 108.10 mph 1/4 mile |
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Lo Cash John Samba Member
Joined: February 06, 2004 Posts: 2246 Location: Jacksonville, FL
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Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:58 pm Post subject: Re: CB 650 Springs - Which Spring Compressor? |
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I use a home made version of the bench top compressor. I place it on my work bench and use a couple of large C-clamps to hold it in place. I can do K800 (chevy size) valve springs with it but that DOES require a cheater bar on the handle is always kinda sketchy. _________________ www.LoCashRacing.org
More brains than bucks...Believe it or not!!
If you actually drive your VW, you need www.AirMapp.com
My boss told me I need to work on my mutli-tasking. So now when I use the bathroom at work I surf The Samba on my iPhone. |
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fl59bug Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2005 Posts: 1976 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:34 am Post subject: Re: CB 650 Springs - Which Spring Compressor? |
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Thanks guys. I have the table top unit and would like to try the c clamp idea a couple of you have suggested. I'm optimistic though that the rocker shaft mounted compressor with wedge will be of great help. It should be here by Thursday.
I'm hoping the wedge will allow me to keep the spring compressed while I use my Gene Berg lash cap puller to pop the CB lash caps off, followed by removing the springs.
Then too, with the springs removed I can also use my Moroso checking springs to do a precise 1/2 lift rocker arm geometry check.
Ted |
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jpaull Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2005 Posts: 3456 Location: Paradise, Ca
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Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:09 am Post subject: Re: CB 650 Springs - Which Spring Compressor? |
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If yours has those chamber centering blocks you might wanna smooth the edges abit so they dont mark up the chambers as they dont always play nice while centering. |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:56 pm Post subject: Re: CB 650 Springs - Which Spring Compressor? |
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jpaull wrote: |
If yours has those chamber centering blocks you might wanna smooth the edges abit so they dont mark up the chambers as they dont always play nice while centering. |
Yes.....I have that bench top model. I took the four metal blocks out with an angle grinder on day 1. I use a couple of blocks of urethane or hard rubber. Worka fine. Ray |
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jpaull Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2005 Posts: 3456 Location: Paradise, Ca
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Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 3:41 pm Post subject: Re: CB 650 Springs - Which Spring Compressor? |
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raygreenwood wrote: |
jpaull wrote: |
If yours has those chamber centering blocks you might wanna smooth the edges abit so they dont mark up the chambers as they dont always play nice while centering. |
Yes.....I have that bench top model. I took the four metal blocks out with an angle grinder on day 1. I use a couple of blocks of urethane or hard rubber. Worka fine. Ray |
Great idea, Smart man!! |
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Wreck Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2014 Posts: 1211 Location: Brisbane
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Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:29 pm Post subject: Re: CB 650 Springs - Which Spring Compressor? |
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I use a drill press , a simple attachment made from 25x25 steel box , that gets pressed down by the chuck , then a simple stand made from a piece of pine and 2 pine blocks that the valves sit on . |
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BFB Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2014 Posts: 1693
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Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 5:00 pm Post subject: Re: CB 650 Springs - Which Spring Compressor? |
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jpaull wrote: |
raygreenwood wrote: |
jpaull wrote: |
If yours has those chamber centering blocks you might wanna smooth the edges abit so they dont mark up the chambers as they dont always play nice while centering. |
Yes.....I have that bench top model. I took the four metal blocks out with an angle grinder on day 1. I use a couple of blocks of urethane or hard rubber. Worka fine. Ray |
Great idea, Smart man!! |
whaaat??? why would you have a problem with those blocks, you can change out valve springs and at the same time dimple your combustion chambers for better swirl or whatever dumpling is supposed to accomplish... _________________ Forced induction can overcome a lot of obsticles that gets in it's way
"You are the Engineer and the Mechanic.
Build it your way not the way someone else does it. Their way might not work for you." - clonebug
An interesting thing happens in forums where everyone starts parroting the same thing and "common knowledge" takes over.
“ The monkey see monkey do mentality seems to run deep in VW people. "Gene Berg said it was so 30 years ago so thats the way it is" “ - bdkw1 |
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modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26743 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 7:56 pm Post subject: Re: CB 650 Springs - Which Spring Compressor? |
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Wreck wrote: |
I use a drill press |
Yep, same. I made a wood angle plate.
I also like to use it to check spring travel.
Two in one |
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Wreck Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2014 Posts: 1211 Location: Brisbane
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Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:00 pm Post subject: Re: CB 650 Springs - Which Spring Compressor? |
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modok wrote: |
Wreck wrote: |
I use a drill press |
Yep, same. I made a wood angle plate.
I also like to use it to check spring travel.
Two in one |
Same |
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Ohio Tom Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2006 Posts: 1657 Location: Marshallville Ohio
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Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 12:36 pm Post subject: Re: CB 650 Springs - Which Spring Compressor? |
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I have never removed inner springs for break-in.
If the cam can't handle dual springs on break-in: It never will last anyways.
Seems like an old wives tale to me.
Cam break-in has more to do with matching cam/lifter types, and kiss patterns more than anything else. |
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fl59bug Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2005 Posts: 1976 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 4:42 pm Post subject: Re: CB 650 Springs - Which Spring Compressor? |
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Ohio Tom wrote: |
I have never removed inner springs for break-in.
If the cam can't handle dual springs on break-in: It never will last anyways.
Seems like an old wives tale to me.
Cam break-in has more to do with matching cam/lifter types, and kiss patterns more than anything else. |
I'm only going by what is on the Engle cam instructions:
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kangaboy Samba Member
Joined: August 28, 2010 Posts: 1062 Location: St. Louis, Mo
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Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:15 am Post subject: Re: CB 650 Springs - Which Spring Compressor? |
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fl59bug wrote: |
Ohio Tom wrote: |
I have never removed inner springs for break-in.
If the cam can't handle dual springs on break-in: It never will last anyways.
Seems like an old wives tale to me.
Cam break-in has more to do with matching cam/lifter types, and kiss patterns more than anything else. |
I'm only going by what is on the Engle cam instructions:
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...pretty tough to argue that. _________________ -74 Standard - "CaliBug" 2084T, MS3X w/FI and Crank Fire
-76 Westy - "Gandalf"
-18 GTI SE
skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
that fucking thing looks like it drove through a J.C. Whitney catalogue and hit everything on the way out |
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evanfrucht Samba Member
Joined: July 24, 2016 Posts: 2180 Location: Laurel Canyon, CA
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Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:21 am Post subject: Re: CB 650 Springs - Which Spring Compressor? |
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I would like to know where Engle got their definitive 98% figure...
So they have been keeping track of every single cam failure for the last 60 years, and have somehow been able to figure out why it happened each time _________________ 1967 Bug ( the daily rod )
1964 Fury Wagon ( the pavement shredder ) |
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Ohio Tom Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2006 Posts: 1657 Location: Marshallville Ohio
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Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:44 am Post subject: Re: CB 650 Springs - Which Spring Compressor? |
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Not hard to argue at all really:
That recommendation is about 30yrs old.
represents a "disclaimer" when you call them about a failed cam.
Been breaking-in cams on dual springs for a long time myself.
Failures can happen, but not necessarily due to spring pressure. Every time I have seen a cam fail, was due to un-matched lifters.
I have Never had an SLR cam/lifter fail. Even with K-800 springs and .605" lift on a Pro-stock motor.
Lifters look like polished mirrors after break-in. 3 seasons later, cam has lost less than .001" lift. Hard to argue with that too....
Why do SLR (Steve Long Racing cams) combos work so well?
He grinds everything (even new lifters get re-ground to match the cam radius).
He also has a very smooth finish on the lobes and lifters. No chatter or un-even surfaces. This means things don't have to wear-in very much at all. The surfaces start pretty much where they are going to end up after break-in.
I have my theories:
LIfter radii must match cam face. So the contact patch is as big as possible with the lobe of the cam. If mis-matched, will fail 100%. If you take the time to "blue" the lifter face to the cam, you will be surprised at how badly "new" lifters can be.
Finish of the lifter and cam lobe must be good. Crappy chatter from loose cam grinding machines, stones that need dressed, or taking too much on the final grind... Can lead to failure. Most Engle cams fall into the "rough finish" category. If you can see the marks thru the Black oxide, then it's too rough. It should look smooth to the eye.
Material hardness matching. Everyone says Scat lifters are junk. Well they need to be run on a Scat cam blank and it will work just fine.
I have never seen any sort of failure correlation to spring pressure.
Just my thoughts... |
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