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My 1970 Elm Green Squareback (Joann)
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vintagecarleds
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2021 3:45 pm    Post subject: Re: My 1970 Elm Green Squareback (Joann) Reply with quote

I had very good luck getting my OE injectors rebuilt.

You ship them yours, you get the same 4 returned.

$27 per injector.

https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=929153&cc=1370089&pt=6224&jsn=390
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Czar1500
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2021 8:58 am    Post subject: Re: My 1970 Elm Green Squareback (Joann) Reply with quote

Ceckert64 wrote:
Just thought I’d update a bit. I found that me and Joann made it into the September 2021 HotVWs! I picked up the magazine at a store on vacation and got it and then read through and found I was in it! Very Happy A small mention but cool.
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I’ve been lately getting annoyed by my rough idle and issues with hot starts and I’m going to try some different injectors, a new pressure regulator and maybe a new fuel pump. I figure it wouldn’t hurt as all of the current parts I’m running are original VW/Bosch, the injectors may be replacements but they are at least 20-30 years old that came off a severely worm engine that had blown up. So I have a question, should I get remanufactured injectors or new ones? Remanufactured are cheaper but what is better?


That's pretty cool. ISP West did a piece on you and the square as well. Keep up the great work.
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Ceckert64
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2021 6:43 am    Post subject: Re: My 1970 Elm Green Squareback (Joann) Reply with quote

vintagecarleds wrote:
I had very good luck getting my OE injectors rebuilt.

You ship them yours, you get the same 4 returned.

$27 per injector.

https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=929153&cc=1370089&pt=6224&jsn=390

Thank you! I saw that but didn’t know if that service was a route or not. I am going to ship out my spare injectors for rebuild today!
And thank you again for the LED headlights, they are awsome!

[quote="Czar1500"]
Ceckert64 wrote:
That's pretty cool. ISP West did a piece on you and the square as well. Keep up the great work.

Thank you!
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1972 Sierra Yellow Tin Top Westfalia Camper
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Ceckert64
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2021 6:48 am    Post subject: Re: My 1970 Elm Green Squareback (Joann) Reply with quote

Chickensoup wrote:
before you buy new ones, take the current injectors out. hook to a fuel pump, and inject power into the prongs. note the spray pattern and volume.

sometimes its obvious if they dirty or bad, but you can grab a bucket, let her rip for a minute, then measure how much you got.

You should have 18lbs/hr. which is 189cc/min. (Btw these injectors are good up to 120ish hp with a real ecu), so you dont need to upgrade to the T4 injectors unless you want to just because.

Heres some cheap off brand injectors,

https://www.partsgeek.com/gbproducts/DC/17363-0518...dQQAvD_BwE




Another thing you can do either after testing the above method or without testing at all, is to run some seafoam or injector purge. When injector clog it alters the spray pattern and limits flow, and because your ecu barely counts as a computer, it can make the needed fuel map changes. Yours is a closed loop system if that even what you call it given its not smart. at all. no offense Laughing

I would also test your IAT sensor, your Oil temp sensor(if it has one), and MAF.


76sealingwaxred wrote:
Today I found the injector o-rings seals, both large and small. For others looking for the part numbers where you go:

1.Large seals #311 133 263
2.Small seals #311 133 261






you also have many of the T1/T4 injectors which are interchangable but with different part numbers.


"Model Disp. Engine Code Bosch number VW/P Number Injector Flow rate VIN Range
74 412 1.7L EC 0 280 150 114 023-906-031 185cc/min
74-75 914 1.7L, 1.8L EB, EC, AN 0 280 150 112 023-906-031 185cc/min
74 Bus Calif. Automatic 1.8L ED 2 132 408 - 214 2 300 000
75-79 Bus 1.8L, 2.0L ED, GD, GE 0 280 150 114 023-906-031 185cc/min
75-76 Beetle (early) 1.6L AJ 0 280 150 112 022-906-031C 185cc/min
76 912E 2.0L GC 0 280 150 105 923 606 109 00 187cc/min
77-79 Beetle (late) 1.6L AJ 0 280 150 116 023-906-031 185cc/min ending with 080 255 (manual), 012 800 (automatic)
80-83 Vanagon 2.0L CV 0 280 150 114 023-906-031 185cc/min Up to 24-A-230 000"



Its much easier to read here ---->

https://ratwell.com/technical/Injectors.html


Thanks for the info, I’m going to get the injectors rebuilt as they are 50 years old and for how much I drive it, if it helps fuel economy, it’s worth it. I also got a new pressure regulator so I’m not having to deal with issues from that and I’m trying to get the injection system in top shape.
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Ceckert64
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2021 7:46 pm    Post subject: Re: My 1970 Elm Green Squareback (Joann) Reply with quote

Okay, I was going to work on getting some nice pictures posted up I took last week with a real camera I got for my journalism class. Oh, and school started last week. I had been taking the Squareback on the highway and then this Monday I decided I’d better do a valve adjustment as I was planning on doing a lot of driving soon, it’s been 1500 miles. I had remembered the #2 exhaust had been tight the last few valve adjustment but not bad. So I go check, and there was 0 clearance on the exhaust #2 valve, couldn’t fit a single feeler gauge in my set in and it had been at .006 (possibly .004) last adjustment 1500 miles ago and I realized I procrastinated too long on getting a spare set of heads rebuilt. Then cylinders 3&4 were tight too, not as bad. So I did a compression test just for curiosity’s sake and it fell in line with previous ones at least.
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But I decided to pull the engine since I can’t even drive it anyways. Today I started pulling the engine, got it out and torn down after school and fixing the beetle. It was interesting to look back through my work. I realized I should have cleaned some of the corrosion out of the head better as it was on the #2 cylinder and I think that contributed. I also didn’t know I was supposed to gap the rings when I replaced them last so that will be on my to-do list. I also need to find a better sealant, the gas broke down the previous stuff, any recommendations? I also see some oil leaks. I noticed cylinders 2&4 have a little spot that is carbon free going from the piston to the head. I circled it in yellow. Is it normal? Also thoughts on valve colors and condition? Any comments appreciated.

I was able to pull out two of the flywheel dowels with my fingers, they didn’t wiggle but is that fine? On hard acceleration when I shift at higher rpm it vibrates, could that cause it?

My plan is eventually to rebuild a nicer engine for it and right now is a just keep it going job. I’m currently just going to replace exhaust valves and lap them. Also, my rebuilt injectors are on there way back to me. I got the valves ordered too. I’m going to check endplay tomorrow, I forgot to do it before I took the flywheel off.
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Ceckert64
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:10 pm    Post subject: Re: My 1970 Elm Green Squareback (Joann) Reply with quote

I forgot to post up that my rebuilt injectors arrived. They look great! But they are bare steel so I may paint them so they don’t rust.

Today I got a chance to get some work done after school. I decided I would try to do some porting. I did a basic clean up on the intake to get rid of some bad machining/casting marks at they top of the intake. No major reworking. You can see the step and sharp angle coming into the port I smoothed out
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Then the exhaust port I cleaned up a bit to but did a bit more work. I got rid of the sharp angle and rounded it out and I tried to make it flow better.
Before:
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After (pics a little out of order):
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I also lapped the valves and gave the heads their final cleaning. I accidentally nicked the exhaust seats so I had to do a power lap on the seats. Hopefully the porting will help a bit and I didn’t just waste 6 hours on it Laughing hopefully it’s running by the end of the weekend

I also noticed the one head doesn’t have a bung for the temp sensor and it is a 311 part number and it was on the engine when I got it. Is that normal for the one side to not have the bung?
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:30 pm    Post subject: Re: My 1970 Elm Green Squareback (Joann) Reply with quote

Quote:
Is that normal for the one side to not have the bung?


I suspect, that that is normal. You only need one temp sensor for the FI and the head with the bung is more expensive to make than the one without. FI was a rare option in other markets, therefore the standard heads were the norm for most engines equipped with dual carbs.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 12:13 pm    Post subject: Re: My 1970 Elm Green Squareback (Joann) Reply with quote

Yes, 1 head having a bung is normal. That lets you know it's the 3-4 head.

You might want to find some aviation glue (permatex) or maybe even some Indian head shellac to use for your spacer gaskets (I've used both). If you pull the cylinders (at this point I would have, to re-ring it due to the oil in the heads) that's where you use silicone (gray high temp or ultra copper) between the cylinders and the case. Just a couple of random thoughts. Wink
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Ceckert64
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:26 pm    Post subject: Re: My 1970 Elm Green Squareback (Joann) Reply with quote

mdege wrote:
Quote:
Is that normal for the one side to not have the bung?


I suspect, that that is normal. You only need one temp sensor for the FI and the head with the bung is more expensive to make than the one without. FI was a rare option in other markets, therefore the standard heads were the norm for most engines equipped with dual carbs.

Forgot about FI not being in all markets, that makes sense

Bobnotch wrote:
Yes, 1 head having a bung is normal. That lets you know it's the 3-4 head.

You might want to find some aviation glue (permatex) or maybe even some Indian head shellac to use for your spacer gaskets (I've used both). If you pull the cylinders (at this point I would have, to re-ring it due to the oil in the heads) that's where you use silicone (gray high temp or ultra copper) between the cylinders and the case. Just a couple of random thoughts. Wink


I replaced the rings on the first go through. I think they didn’t break in. I took the P&Cs off and I was bought some permatex red sealant that’s good up to 650F for them. I got a set of newer P&Cs that came off an engine that I think was only ran a few times with little wear and have good honing. The current set of cylinders that came off the car need to be honed or replaced as the honing has worn off.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 7:30 pm    Post subject: Re: My 1970 Elm Green Squareback (Joann) Reply with quote

Today I finished lapping the exhaust valves and put them in. I did a leak test by putting gas in the ports and see if it leaked out per one of the manuals. 3/4 exhaust valves were good, one I had to redo. I checked the intakes and they all leaked bad. Green check means pass and red x means they leaked
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So then I went and redid all the leaking ones. I found the seats had a little rust on them on the intakes. I used the drill to get the rust spots out. It didn’t take too long get them out and they sealed up good.
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Then I cleaned up the spark plugs and gapped them and put them in the heads once I finished the heads.
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I think I should definitely get more even compression now. Some of seats/valves weren’t sealing great before I can tell from the leak down and there was a little carbon in the intake. I’m thinking it should also get a bit better gas mileage and run smoother with a smidge more power now that compression should be more even and that I will have rebuilt injectors. I think I might get some new rings and get the cylinders honed. I will have “rebuilt” heads, probably much better than GEX rebuilt though Laughing So I figure I should put in the time to do it somewhat right as this engine might make it to 30k miles if I do it right.
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Ceckert64
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2021 5:44 pm    Post subject: Re: My 1970 Elm Green Squareback (Joann) Reply with quote

I got the flywheel cleaned up today and put a new rear main seal in.
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I also replaced the distributor seal as it was leaking. I used some RTV to seal up the AAR as it always leaked with the new paper gasket.

Then I had a question. One of my bake a lite spacers that go between the head and intake has a crack in it. I have a good one that I’m guessing is from a FI beetle but it is a bit taller. Would the thickness cause any issues in the heat soak and cause the engine to run rough with injectors at slightly different temps? Or could I just use the blue gasket?
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 6:47 pm    Post subject: Re: My 1970 Elm Green Squareback (Joann) Reply with quote

i think acn may sell the correct spacer gasket thing
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:09 pm    Post subject: Re: My 1970 Elm Green Squareback (Joann) Reply with quote

I just want to note here that 12 days ago, you started this round of work by saying you were going to check the valve adjustment, and he we are.
I don't think any other car has this ease of removal and tear down, and it appears Aidan has mastered the process!
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 12:44 pm    Post subject: Re: My 1970 Elm Green Squareback (Joann) Reply with quote

Heyman, nice work. Cool

While not the nicest parts I've ever seen, there's nothing i see that signals impending doom..


Some ideas FWIW..


I'd polish up that flywheel snout with some 600 wet/dry, then clean and lube with a bit of oil.
You sure your rear main seal is all the way home?

You can clean the rest of the carbon from your chambers and exhaust ports with those little wire wheels that go in a drill motor.

If you're not getting the heads flycut, a field way of helping head seal is to put some lapping compound on the top of your heads and hump the cylinders back n' forth to smooth out the sealing surface.

Test it for leaks at the head when assembling, if they don't hold you can glue the heads on with some ultra copper.

Don't use any glue on intake manifold gaskets.
i like to use some grease on the head side so you can always get them off without tearing if needed. (Paper gasket surfaces on each side of the phenolic spacer).


Most motors die from neglect. A combination of dirt clogging fins and the tune getting poor, weak injectors, leaking intake and exhaust, etc.
If you get this one back together with the survival parts you have on-hand, it will be an important step forward to have it all dressed down, cleaned, tuned and sealed up right.

Sussing out intake and exhaust leaks, tune, t-stat, good injectors, etc. will all give this motor a good chance at life, and also be ready for when the next better motor comes along.
Sometimes, though, having it running hard again will expose weaknesses that the sloppy tune didn't make enough power to expose, so be ready for that.


Nice work going forward. Little bit at a time.

Sometimes those quick builds can last a long time.
More than one VW mechanic friend of mine BITD only used customer core motors from motor replacements in their daily full time!
Another used core motors with nitromethane in his drag car. Twisted Evil
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:03 pm    Post subject: Re: My 1970 Elm Green Squareback (Joann) Reply with quote

DQDan wrote:
I just want to note here that 12 days ago, you started this round of work by saying you were going to check the valve adjustment, and he we are.
I don't think any other car has this ease of removal and tear down, and it appears Aidan has mastered the process!

Yeah, it takes me less than one and a half hours to drop the engine from running to sitting behind the car, I can take everything thing apart quick too!
Clatter wrote:
Heyman, nice work. Cool

While not the nicest parts I've ever seen, there's nothing i see that signals impending doom..


Some ideas FWIW..


I'd polish up that flywheel snout with some 600 wet/dry, then clean and lube with a bit of oil.
You sure your rear main seal is all the way home?

You can clean the rest of the carbon from your chambers and exhaust ports with those little wire wheels that go in a drill motor.

If you're not getting the heads flycut, a field way of helping head seal is to put some lapping compound on the top of your heads and hump the cylinders back n' forth to smooth out the sealing surface.

Test it for leaks at the head when assembling, if they don't hold you can glue the heads on with some ultra copper.

Don't use any glue on intake manifold gaskets.
i like to use some grease on the head side so you can always get them off without tearing if needed. (Paper gasket surfaces on each side of the phenolic spacer).


Most motors die from neglect. A combination of dirt clogging fins and the tune getting poor, weak injectors, leaking intake and exhaust, etc.
If you get this one back together with the survival parts you have on-hand, it will be an important step forward to have it all dressed down, cleaned, tuned and sealed up right.

Sussing out intake and exhaust leaks, tune, t-stat, good injectors, etc. will all give this motor a good chance at life, and also be ready for when the next better motor comes along.
Sometimes, though, having it running hard again will expose weaknesses that the sloppy tune didn't make enough power to expose, so be ready for that.


Nice work going forward. Little bit at a time.

Sometimes those quick builds can last a long time.
More than one VW mechanic friend of mine BITD only used customer core motors from motor replacements in their daily full time!
Another used core motors with nitromethane in his drag car. Twisted Evil

I used 2000 grit on the flywheel snub with wd40. I might go back and do it again but it was very bad before.

In the picture the seal is not all the way in yet, I got it in a decent bit farther after that pic.

What lapping compound would you suggest? My valve lapping compounds are way too aggressive for the aluminum.

I’ve been trying to make sure I get the head fins clean. I don’t know how I left them so bad first round. They were clogged up in a few spots on cylinder #2 up to an inch Shocked I don’t know how it didn’t overheat, well, that’s the cylinder the valve stretched on.

At this point I want to see how long I can make this engine last without a real rebuild. I got ~12,000 miles out of the first clean out with minimal work from an engine with intake ports that were filled to the brim with rust and rotted away by mouse pee. I’m hoping I can break 75,000 miles with it.

Today I got the engine parts washed up, cleaned and repainted
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1972 Sierra Yellow Tin Top Westfalia Camper
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:53 pm    Post subject: Re: My 1970 Elm Green Squareback (Joann) Reply with quote

Today was cleaning day for the most part

I cleaned out the intake tubes because the had crap in them. FWI an old hard spark plug wire makes a good flexible rams for shoving a paper towel through. Then I put the injectors in and added my NOS plastic holders. Mike at my local VW shop gave them to me for free a while back because decades ago his dad bought them in a 100 pack so he has a few Laughing
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Then I got my flex hone in today. It worked great. I practiced on a few junk cylinders from my parts engine that lost a rod
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A wood saw works great for cleaning between fins
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I also took of the rings keeping them ordered and labeled and cleaned the pistons. I used the Tom Wilson trick of breaking a junk ring in half, filing the edges, to use it clean the piston ring groves. It worked well and I got the ring groves very clean.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:59 pm    Post subject: Re: My 1970 Elm Green Squareback (Joann) Reply with quote

Engine tins and intakes and cylinders look great! Too bad you don't see the engine much in a t3. Unless it breaks down alot lol.
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-'85 c10 5.3 LS, 222 cam, long tubes, x pipe, 3 inch spin tech's
-'05 B5.5 TDI Wagon 17in sport rims ;EGR + BSM + ASV Delete, Stage-2 Tune, straight pipe
'65 Tourist Delivery Build
'66 RIP
'69 RIP
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge"
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Ceckert64
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Joined: September 16, 2015
Posts: 1931
Location: Manitowoc, WI
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 6:53 pm    Post subject: Re: My 1970 Elm Green Squareback (Joann) Reply with quote

Chickensoup wrote:
Engine tins and intakes and cylinders look great! Too bad you don't see the engine much in a t3. Unless it breaks down alot lol.

Thanks! I like to open it at shows or flex my engine under the floor or show it to people to confuse them Laughing
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1964 sunroof Beetle Restoration "Herbie"
“Joann” 1970 Elm Green Squareback
1972 Sierra Yellow Tin Top Westfalia Camper
“Fitz” 1971 Westfalia Poptop
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Chickensoup
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Location: Good Hope, GA
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:22 pm    Post subject: Re: My 1970 Elm Green Squareback (Joann) Reply with quote

u gots to flex on them haters Laughing

next time you show the car, lay some mirrors down. crusty and sludgy heater boxes will get you best in show 9/10 Wink
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-'85 c10 5.3 LS, 222 cam, long tubes, x pipe, 3 inch spin tech's
-'05 B5.5 TDI Wagon 17in sport rims ;EGR + BSM + ASV Delete, Stage-2 Tune, straight pipe
'65 Tourist Delivery Build
'66 RIP
'69 RIP
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge"
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Ceckert64
Samba Member


Joined: September 16, 2015
Posts: 1931
Location: Manitowoc, WI
Ceckert64 is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:25 pm    Post subject: Re: My 1970 Elm Green Squareback (Joann) Reply with quote

Chickensoup wrote:
u gots to flex on them haters Laughing

next time you show the car, lay some mirrors down. crusty and sludgy heater boxes will get you best in show 9/10 Wink

I figure if they are looking under my car there going to find issues elsewhere first Laughing

Today I did a final clean on rings, pistons and cylinders, checked ring gaps, put that together. Then I got the long block assembled and the thermostat hooked up. My pictures would upload, but I will try again tomorrow
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1964 sunroof Beetle Restoration "Herbie"
“Joann” 1970 Elm Green Squareback
1972 Sierra Yellow Tin Top Westfalia Camper
“Fitz” 1971 Westfalia Poptop
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