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k@rlos Samba Member
Joined: October 04, 2012 Posts: 485 Location: Suffolk, England
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Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:43 am Post subject: Sump baffles? |
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While cruising down the motorway at 65-70mph in my baywindow bus a car pulled across lanes in front of me and I had to hit the brakes, HARD! Wheels locked and the camping gear in the back came forward, also during that moment of terror the oil pressure gauge momentarily dropped to 0 and the oil light came on. Obviously under such hard braking all the oil rapidly runaway from the oil pick up, was only got a split second but it’s not something I like the idea of.
It’s a 2110 type 1 with a CB performance 2 quart deep sump and extended pick-up, is there a method to baffle a deep sump?
Thanks |
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Shane Tuttle Samba Member
Joined: February 02, 2011 Posts: 173 Location: Arlee, Montana
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Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:09 am Post subject: Re: Sump baffles? |
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Was the proper length oil pickup tube installed? |
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k@rlos Samba Member
Joined: October 04, 2012 Posts: 485 Location: Suffolk, England
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Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:12 am Post subject: Re: Sump baffles? |
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Yes |
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runamoc Samba Member
Joined: June 19, 2006 Posts: 5601 Location: 37.5N 77.1W
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Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:33 am Post subject: Re: Sump baffles? |
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maybe the brakes 'stopped' the engine briefly _________________ Daily driver: '69 Baja owned 44 yrs - Plan B: '81 Rabbit Diesel LS Deluxe - Plan C: '72 Ghia
Yard Art: 2 Sandrails
Outback: '69 Ghia - '68,'69,'70,'72 Beetle - '84 Scirocco, GTI - Pair of '02 Golfs-
VW Wiring = It's just wires |
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Dale M. Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006 Posts: 20380 Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:51 am Post subject: Re: Sump baffles? |
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Have really hard time believe you lost oil pressure with deep sump .... Pretty hard for maybe 6+ quarts of oil to hide from deep pickup tube...
In several years of Auto cross racing never lost oil pressure with the violent sloshing of oil in deep sump... _________________ “Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ... |
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74 Thing Samba Member
Joined: September 02, 2004 Posts: 7394
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Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:01 am Post subject: Re: Sump baffles? |
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What's your oil level at? Is the pickup tube loose or sucking air? |
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airschooled Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012 Posts: 12728 Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:26 am Post subject: Re: Sump baffles? |
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runamoc wrote: |
maybe the brakes 'stopped' the engine briefly |
This would be my guess as well. _________________ Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com |
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mikedjames Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2012 Posts: 2745 Location: Hamble, Hampshire, UK
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Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:47 am Post subject: Re: Sump baffles? |
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Braking hard at speed you probably also got a lot of air in the oil for a moment as it piled up at the front of the crank, and was thrown around by the crank.
Not a lot you can do, and for a short time the bearings will still be working on oil not molten metal.
I once did similar, cornered hard on a roundabout and then braked hard for the traffic queue at the exit, with fairly low oil level and the pressure dipped to zero and then picked up to normal again. I pulled over, noticed everything back to normal, carried on. _________________ Ancient vehicles and vessels
1974 VW T2 : Devon Eurovette camper with 1641 DP T1 engine, Progressive carb, full flow oil cooler, EDIS crank timed ignition.
Engine 1: 40k miles (rocker shaft clip fell off), Engine 2: 30k miles (rebuild, dropped valve). Engine 3: a JK Preservation Parts "new" engine, aluminium case: 26k miles: new top end.
Gearbox rebuild 2021 by Bears.
1979 Westerly GK24 24 foot racer/cruiser yacht Forethought of Gosport.
1973 wooden Pacer sailing dinghy |
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k@rlos Samba Member
Joined: October 04, 2012 Posts: 485 Location: Suffolk, England
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Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 12:03 pm Post subject: Re: Sump baffles? |
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74 Thing wrote: |
What's your oil level at? Is the pickup tube loose or sucking air? |
I have the level between the 2 marks on genuine vw dipstick. As for pick up not as far as I’m aware. Oil pressure is spot on.
45 psi at idle when cold, 15 hot and about 35 when cruising.
Last edited by k@rlos on Tue Sep 21, 2021 12:12 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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k@rlos Samba Member
Joined: October 04, 2012 Posts: 485 Location: Suffolk, England
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Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 12:09 pm Post subject: Re: Sump baffles? |
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Dale M. wrote: |
Have really hard time believe you lost oil pressure with deep sump .... Pretty hard for maybe 6+ quarts of oil to hide from deep pickup tube...
In several years of Auto cross racing never lost oil pressure with the violent sloshing of oil in deep sump... |
Well the oil pressure is normally spot on but the gauge dropped and oil light 100% came on for a split second then shot up again.
My bus has Porsche 4 pot calipers & discs on the front and out stops a lot of modern cars. I’m puzzled by it too |
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jimmyhoffa Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2014 Posts: 1059 Location: St. Louis
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Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 12:21 pm Post subject: Re: Sump baffles? |
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With any sort of bolt on sump that does surprise me too, that said, sump baffles turned my car from undrivable off-road to a really fun worry free car.
I use mine in the "other way" (side to side slosh conrol) because my issue was hard corners and sliding in the dirt, but it was absolutely night and day for me. The windage tray really didn't do anything. I swapped it out for these plates I made and it just totally solved the problem.
_________________ 1974 Chenowth 2RL #1244 Street Legal
My other car isn't ridiculous. |
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Alstrup Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007 Posts: 7219 Location: Videbaek Denmark
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Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 1:03 pm Post subject: Re: Sump baffles? |
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I have never done baffles in an external oil sump. But some 10 years ago i was involved in an outlaw Formula Vee engine. These cars are so low that a sump is kinda dangerous to drive with. Next they are also illegal. Only a very small "cup" is allowed, like about 1,8" below the sump. On this particular engine we made a X baffle in the sump in order to get the oil back to the pick up fast and in just about all thinkable situations. We did everything we could to control the amount of oil needed. We used a 26 mm pump and thinner oil over the "normal" choice (21 mm pump with 20W/50 oil) This way we could control the oil pressure and relief better. The engine was overfilled with 0,25-0,3 l oil and it seemed to do the job alltogether. The oil light did flicker once in a while, but only for a split second.
I have only done it this one time. So not much experience with it though. _________________ https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=435993 |
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evanfrucht Samba Member
Joined: July 24, 2016 Posts: 2180 Location: Laurel Canyon, CA
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Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 1:27 pm Post subject: Re: Sump baffles? |
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_________________ 1967 Bug ( the daily rod )
1964 Fury Wagon ( the pavement shredder ) |
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Wreck Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2014 Posts: 1218 Location: Brisbane
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Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:47 pm Post subject: Re: Sump baffles? |
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have you any external filters and coolers ? I always check my oil level with the engine hot and straight after I've turned off the engine ,before the oil has a chance to drain back to the sump .
I friend that builds and races FVEE's checks his oil when the engine is hot idling . They only use a Tuna can sump extension , you will not out brake or out corner one of those and he doesn't get oil surge . |
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k@rlos Samba Member
Joined: October 04, 2012 Posts: 485 Location: Suffolk, England
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Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:48 pm Post subject: Re: Sump baffles? |
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Wreck wrote: |
have you any external filters and coolers ? I always check my oil level with the engine hot and straight after I've turned off the engine ,before the oil has a chance to drain back to the sump .
I friend that builds and races FVEE's checks his oil when the engine is hot idling . They only use a Tuna can sump extension , you will not out brake or out corner one of those and he doesn't get oil surge . |
Yeah its full flowed with a remote to the let of the engine a 34 row cooler in front of the gearbox. |
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Wreck Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2014 Posts: 1218 Location: Brisbane
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Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:23 am Post subject: Re: Sump baffles? |
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k@rlos wrote: |
Wreck wrote: |
have you any external filters and coolers ? I always check my oil level with the engine hot and straight after I've turned off the engine ,before the oil has a chance to drain back to the sump .
I friend that builds and races FVEE's checks his oil when the engine is hot idling . They only use a Tuna can sump extension , you will not out brake or out corner one of those and he doesn't get oil surge . |
Yeah its full flowed with a remote to the let of the engine a 34 row cooler in front of the gearbox. |
If you add the oil volume of the external system( including oil lines) with the extra sump should theoretically give you your total oil needed for your engine .some people are surprised how much an oil filter and cooler add to the volume.
A little more oil is better than not enough . |
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frenchroast Samba Member
Joined: October 13, 2019 Posts: 679
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Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 8:10 am Post subject: Re: Sump baffles? |
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jimmyhoffa wrote: |
I use mine in the "other way" (side to side slosh conrol) because my issue was hard corners and sliding in the dirt, but it was absolutely night and day for me. The windage tray really didn't do anything. I swapped it out for these plates I made and it just totally solved the problem. |
I really like your solution. Can't quite tell from the picture but is that some sort of flare or washer on the bottom of the pickup tube?
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volksworld Samba Member
Joined: November 26, 2011 Posts: 2529 Location: formerly NY currently NC
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Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 9:15 am Post subject: Re: Sump baffles? |
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unless you were stepping on the clutch when you locked up the brakes i'm also voting that you basically stalled the engine |
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sjbartnik Samba Member
Joined: September 01, 2011 Posts: 5998 Location: Brooklyn
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Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 12:21 pm Post subject: Re: Sump baffles? |
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volksworld wrote: |
unless you were stepping on the clutch when you locked up the brakes i'm also voting that you basically stalled the engine |
This. If you really did lock the rear wheels, and if you didn't press on the clutch to separate engine and transmission, then when the wheels/transmission internals stopped rotating, the crankshaft was forced to stop rotating too.
If you jammed on the brake and clutch at the same time, then disregard. _________________ 1965 Volkswagen 1500 Variant S
2000 Kawasaki W650 |
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FreeBug Samba Member
Joined: March 12, 2012 Posts: 4278 Location: deepest, darkest Switzerland
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Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:27 pm Post subject: Re: Sump baffles? |
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Maybe it was the time. Braking from high speeds can take a while, and all that time generating Gs (well, not quite, but you get the idea) , and if the braking lasts long enough, the oil is using the front of the case as the sump, and there's no pick-up there.
I imagine if you simply ran the oil level at stock height, the issue would,d be resolved |
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