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DuncanS
Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2013
Posts: 4583
Location: New Hampshire
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 Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:34 pm Post subject: Re: How much have you towed? |
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| Very nice |
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csebern
Samba Member
Joined: May 11, 2021
Posts: 82
Location: Mill Valley, California
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:50 pm Post subject: Re: How much have you towed? |
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| Abscate wrote: |
| That last picture is a tort lawyers wet dream. That’s grossly overloaded for that vehicle. |
I’m sorry but I’ve got to say it.
You have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about.
Last edited by csebern on Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:49 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9610
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:23 pm Post subject: Re: How much have you towed? |
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| dart330 wrote: |
| Sorry I misinterpreted "standard" as "stock" not manual transmission. |
“They say” the Auto trans is touger than the manual trans.
That could be true. 💪🏼💪🏼
But the Auto trans has a had a few unfair advantages over the course of its life.
In comparison, an easier first 150,000 miles than the manual trans.
Maintenance intervals, what a concept!
Was there an era (like 1960s) when nobody would believe that “lifetime lubricant” is anything but asking your complicity to enable obsolescence?
A simple list of Auto trans privileges that have not been extended to the lowly manual trans:
1) the owners manual (see it ^^above^^) attempts to impart to the owners the wisdom of ATF lubricant cleanliness. This is for valving and function but note the bearings and gears go along for that “privileged ride”.
2) importance of following the AT Fluid replacement intervals.
3) the Auto trans has an oil ‘cooler’ thus the temperature is less likely to exceed maximum trans temps.
4) auto trans has an oil filter
Those who wanna tow with your Antique. At the least you should install a Transaxle temperature gauge.
Then you KNOW if its working too hard.
My F150 has one.
If your trans hits 160F, thats the caution mark for a Vanagon trans.
At 180F your mainshaft bearing is loose in its bore.
If you are driving at 180F, miles are flying out the window.
How about hours and hours like that?
Can you envision a big hairy drain plug?
It’s wearing the mainshaft bearing bore larger, reducing your tow capacity further.
Its also wearing the “bearing hold-down” allowing input shaft axial movement. Which is another bummer.
When the bore becomes loose, the bearings cannot transfer heat (to its bore and thus to the outer case), so the mainshaft bearing gets hotter.
When the bore grows (by heat temporarily and by wear permanently), the shafts push apart, which causes sliding at the gear faces rather than ‘rolling contact’. Which causes more heat and more wear. And a hotter trans.
And throw tens of thousands of miles of contamination in the lubricant. To tow, probably should up your maintenance game to accommodate the higher duty cycle you have foisted upon this old man.
Its $20 of oil.
$20 won’t break the bank like a proper rebuild will.
Towing is a higher duty cycle, similar to driving at higher sustained speeds of bigger engines.
The candle that burns brighter cannot last as long.
But ya gotta get the value you want from your vehicle.
Imagine how many miles a dumptruck would last if you never put dirt in it?
There are better tow vehicles, an F150 is a low-level tow vehicle rated for 11,000 lbs.
But its no fun camping in an F150 so it depends a lot on what you do when tou get there.
But just “towing”?
No thanks.
I’ve seen inside Vanagon transmissions snd I’ve seen the invoices too.
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22668
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:53 pm Post subject: Re: How much have you towed? |
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| csebern wrote: |
| Abscate wrote: |
| That last picture is a tort lawyers wet dream. That’s grossly overloaded for that vehicle. |
I’m sorry but I’ve got to say it.
You have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about. |
I think I’ll rest my case here. Unbraked 3500+ trailer with a T3
| Quote: |
| The car trailer is aluminum and I’ve put a 3500lb car on it. It’s slow but it works. I don’t have a trailer brake controller but I will be installing one soon. |
_________________
.ssS! |
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csebern
Samba Member
Joined: May 11, 2021
Posts: 82
Location: Mill Valley, California
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:06 pm Post subject: Re: How much have you towed? |
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| 4Gears4Tires wrote: |
| Nice. I assume that means it requires a special hitch. Also means I can continue on with my plan of towing my race car. |
Do it, it works great. Again I only tow really heavy stuff around the race facility. It’s a large multi-acre private facility. I don’t take anything heavy on the highway and won’t until I get trailer brake controller installed.
With a Formula Ford or something light you’ll be surprised how well it works. I have the benefit of a lighter vehicle as opposed to a Westy. If your going to tow something really heavy, regularly, on the highway, with a Westy, upgrade the brakes. Other than that, keep a forward weight bias on the trailer and increase your distance between you and the vehicle in front of you. Drive safe and enjoy. |
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MaineRich
Samba Member
Joined: July 05, 2011
Posts: 61
Location: Maine
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:17 pm Post subject: Re: How much have you towed? |
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| now that's a great set up with the drift boat! |
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DuncanS
Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2013
Posts: 4583
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:19 pm Post subject: Re: How much have you towed? |
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What seems to be the conservative message here is: Don't tow heavy stuff. If you tow at all, pay attention to the tranny oil changing schedule which needs to be more often. Install an oil temp gauge. (I have one of these for postage as it's centigrade and I wanted fahrfegnuton. I already have one f and lengthened the leads and it didn't change the values, so you could do the tranny and watch it while driving. PM me.)
Besides "Do not get killed, do not kill others", expect less life out of the tranny.
Only had a pic of the volt meter, but its the same with two readings and probes.
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csebern
Samba Member
Joined: May 11, 2021
Posts: 82
Location: Mill Valley, California
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:49 pm Post subject: Re: How much have you towed? |
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| DuncanS wrote: |
| What seems to be the conservative message here is: Don't tow heavy stuff…. |
My knowledge of the transmissions of these vehicles all comes from The Buslab & Rancho transaxles. They rebuilt my transaxle. I had initially purchased the vehicle with the intention of putting a Porsche engine in the back and using it as a daily driver. The man at Rancho quickly explained to me that my transaxle is “Made out of glass and hundred dollar bills”. As such he states it has a limited power rating and not to exceed 200 hp. He explained that the case is thin and the shafts, bearings and gears are small. He said the major killer is people install more HP and then climb long grades at 75 or 80 mph, and that actually is what kills them because they get incredibly hot.
Some people install coolers which will extend that life but you still need to be careful as the transmission is the weak link. So I scratched the idea of the 996 engine and I’m going with the Subaru EJ25 and I’ll do exactly what they said. Being an engineer and a fabricator I’m probably going to install a cooler with a thermostat and automatic fan just because it’s actually not that difficult. That, regular oil changes and general common sense should yield a fun, reliable vehicle that I can use for towing occasionally. |
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vwjoel
Samba Member
Joined: April 14, 2006
Posts: 205
Location: Seattle WA
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:16 pm Post subject: Re: How much have you towed? |
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I did some towing last week with my TriStar. Rented a dump trailer to get some major yard work done. It might have been around 5k lb loaded. It was a bit much for my old 5 speed. First gear is making a sad noise now. I have a mildly tuned DJ high compression 2.1 with an Engle 110 cam and dual IDFs so not nearly what a TDI or Subaru 2.5 could do.
I'm seriously considering the Subaru Gears transmission conversion and the TDI engine adapter they offer for the Subaru trans. That would be a sweet setup.
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DuncanS
Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2013
Posts: 4583
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 9:59 pm Post subject: Re: How much have you towed? |
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| csebern--When you do this could you create a topic thread as it sounds like you have a good idea for the oil cooler. |
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DuncanS
Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2013
Posts: 4583
Location: New Hampshire
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csebern
Samba Member
Joined: May 11, 2021
Posts: 82
Location: Mill Valley, California
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| Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 3:07 pm Post subject: Re: How much have you towed? |
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This was posted on the Syncro Doka thread back in 2012. I think people forget that the VW T3 was the go to light truck/utility vehicle for Europe for more than a decade. Pretty cool. I love my Doka more than any American truck I've owned. I mean I wish it had a 5.9L Cummins but still I'll never sell it.
Check out this.
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MaxVanagon
Samba Member
Joined: September 03, 2021
Posts: 22
Location: Reno, NV
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| Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 5:28 pm Post subject: Re: How much have you towed? |
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As I don't know anything, which is why I'm asking, from what I'm reading, to tow up to a 1,990 pound trailer with a 1.9L engine, the stuff I'm looking at:
1. transmission
are these parts of the transmission?????:
a. 3/4 slider
b. hub
c. bearings
d. gear oil
2. transaxle
I'm trying to find out what to focus on not just rebuild the Vanagon into
a FORD F150.
Should I be looking at a new transmission, a new transaxle, both?
Even if I don't do it myself, if I can get this straight in my head I
might get a mechanic to do what I want not just take my money by
getting an expensive new engine that won't make it tow much more
because of transaxle or transmission stuff.
Thanks for any further comments. I'm reading what you write, and looking
stuff up. |
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DuncanS
Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2013
Posts: 4583
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:32 pm Post subject: Re: How much have you towed? |
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| Yes. Matt Steedle in NJ is one of the best in the country. FAS, the renowned world recognized shop for Vanagons, uses only Matt. I was lucky to get him to build one for me. |
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4Gears4Tires
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2018
Posts: 3048
Location: MD
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| Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:48 am Post subject: Re: How much have you towed? |
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| MaxVanagon wrote: |
1. transmission
are these parts of the transmission?????:
a. 3/4 slider
b. hub
c. bearings
d. gear oil
2. transaxle |
These are all good things to do. But, people run around here with 5000-6000lb fully loaded adventure westy's and no one bats an eye at that. And people slowly drive across the world with these. If you're towing less than 2000lbs I wouldn't worry about it.
_________________
'87 Syncro
Ferric Oxyhydroxide Superleggera Edition |
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DuncanS
Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2013
Posts: 4583
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:14 am Post subject: Re: How much have you towed? |
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Hey, read my earlier post.
[quote="DuncanS"]Sodo x ∞. I bought an '87 brand new and towed boats 'n stuff to the Vineyard for several years for the August rental. Weight 1700#. Then towed a 17' Boston Whaler on a heavy trailer with a 70HP motor. Guestimated at 1700#. Did this for maybe 10 times with a total of perhaps 3000 miles. THEN, a new car with less than 50k on the clock had the first of my 2 STDS. Sudden Tranny Death Syndrome. Now, 30 plus years later with 150/250 on the odometer and an unknown tranny??.................Make sure you have triple A. My new Matt Steedle transmission with the best 3/4 slider will never see over 800#. It replaced a noisy '91 Tintop with 175k and a mag plug that had a serious afro growing on it.
And reread ALL of Sodo's earlier post.
| Sodo wrote: |
The main problem towing with a Vanagon is the age and (likely) neglect of the transaxle.
Yes there’s the 3rd/4th slider hub problem.
Your hub is likely cracked. They last about 125-175k miles.
They last awhile with one crack, less when theres 2 cracks.
Tow truck at 3 cracks.
Towing with an old vanagon is dicey, burns the candle brighter…
Unless it was recently rebuilt and you know it has a new (modern) hub.
Heres the other detail.
VW said not to change the gear oil and (likely) most owners complied.
There are no service items in the Bentley beyond 90,000 miles.
Many Vanagons are towards 200k, 2nd 3rd and Big engines, and owners are STILL complying.l
If owners would have maintained gear oil with normal prudence in the first 100k
(dump the break-in trash at 600 miles then thereafter every 30k),
And replace the hubs, bearings at 100-150k…. Vanagon transaxles would last “forever”.
The hub problem is a KNOWN problem, but people think you have to drive it until it's destroyed.
This is utter foolishness but it's a popular Vanagon custom.
You should rebuild somewhere around 125-150k while the trans is still quiet.
Aside from the broken hub problem, there is also a “Vanagon custom” of driving it until it "makes noise".
Which destroys whats left.
So even if you have a rebuilt - the parts were likely driven noisy and don’t have much life remaining.
Every mechanic knows what "noise" means but they keep mum when i comes to transaxles, as if transaxles are some black art, where a magician erases the effects of driving it around while a mechanical item 'makes noise'.
Thus it's OK to keep driving the car if it makes noise.
Foolish driving with engine noise, but no prob if it's the trans.
I did it, I was 'with the times'
def had my finger on the pulse of Vanagon mechanical tomfoolery. 
I PAID the price.
Anyway back to your question.
The vans could probably tow back in the ‘80s.
And the few (very few) that were maintained probably could tow in the ‘90s and the ‘oughts.
But that horse has left the barn.
The only saving grace you have is the mention of the WBX which can’t beat the old man as hard as the feller who thinks “a big engine makes a tow vehicle”.
Just because someone towed with an old vanagon trans doesnt mean yours has sufficient headroom remaining.
Or the other feller either.
He’s not gonna call you up and tell you his tranny bit the dust he’s gonna keep mum.
But there are times you need to tow.
I’d use 1000lbs as a max, don’t go fast or far.
And certainly don’t tow unless you’ve been maintaining your antique and your magnet has been coming out clean.
Knowledge of your transaxle condition comes with maintenance.
If you have been maintaining it, you will know if its clean.
A big hairy magnet is trashed bearings.
It’s over.
Don’t even drive it much less tow. |
DO worry about it!! If you have a tranny, as Sodo suggests, with a crack in it, then a #2000 tow will maybe get you 20 miles down the road before you experience your STDS.
Duncan |
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Steve M.
Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2013
Posts: 6832
Location: Fort Lauderdale, Fl.
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| Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:34 am Post subject: Re: How much have you towed? |
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So far I've only towed it empty and mainly just to impress myself.
Max capacity is 400 lbs so don't think it will damage the transaxle.
I want it mainly to carry water, gas and some camping gear to keep the Syncro uncluttered instead of shifting everything around to lay on the bed.
_________________
This free advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.
There are seven days in a week. Someday is not one of them. |
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Steve M.
Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2013
Posts: 6832
Location: Fort Lauderdale, Fl.
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| Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:20 am Post subject: Re: How much have you towed? |
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...double posti.
_________________
This free advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.
There are seven days in a week. Someday is not one of them.
Last edited by Steve M. on Wed Sep 22, 2021 4:55 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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4Gears4Tires
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2018
Posts: 3048
Location: MD
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| Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 12:05 pm Post subject: Re: How much have you towed? |
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What's the functional difference in load on the trans between carrying 1000lbs of gear in the van and 1000lbs of gear behind the van?
Because I don't think there's a real difference. I've put 225-250 bricks (1200lbs) in my van. Besides accelerating and stopping worse, I didn't feel like I was hurting the van. I'm curious to know other people's opinions.
_________________
'87 Syncro
Ferric Oxyhydroxide Superleggera Edition |
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csebern
Samba Member
Joined: May 11, 2021
Posts: 82
Location: Mill Valley, California
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| Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 1:01 pm Post subject: Re: How much have you towed? |
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| 4Gears4Tires wrote: |
| What's the functional difference in load on the trans between carrying 1000lbs of gear in the van and 1000lbs of gear behind the van? |
Nothing. The transmission sees the same load regardless. |
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