No start on "83 Diesel 1.6 Asking for help

[?Waldo?]

Ok, in that case, that extra Ford solenoid is presumably acting as a hot start relay.

If running a jumper across the two main terminals causes the van's starter to work consistently then the issue is not the van's starter. If it doesn't then the issue could be the starter or the extra ford solenoid.

[ndorian]

Yes, a hard/,hot start relay. And it jumps the starter consistently. Today I can crank from the ignition pigtail but w/new ignition switch and key cylinder, everything shuts down after buzzer. I just switched out ignition switch for a Febi/biltsein and went back to the old key cylinder. Getting ready to test but it may be that I have two, or more, issues.

[ndorian]

Hooked positive cable back to battery, tried new ignition switch. Nothing. Pulled off pigtail and now I can't jump the starter from the pigtail. I can still jump the starter from the Ford solenoid though. A side note; when I tried new ignition switch, even the clock stopped for longer than it should when turning the key. It started again when i hooked up a charger to the battery insitu. Wondering about my positive cables from battery.

[Alan Brase]

This is JUST SILLY that you are spending this much trouble fixing this. BTW, it sounds like perhaps you have 2 problems. Perhaps the new ignition switch was defective or not fully connected.
It REALLY helps to have a helper.
Another way is to buy a REMOTE STARTER SWITCH. Easiest place to use the remote is across the two red wires on the FORD switch
And the other thing you need is a digital volt meter. one with 2 needle sharp probes.
You simply measure voltage OR voltage drop between any connections.
Very first I would stab a probe into each battery post. At rest it should be near 12 volts, like 11.2 -11.6
Then Have someone trigger the key. If there is much voltage drop, the battery is likely bad.
Now move the probe from the + to the engine block and leave the other probe to the - battery post. Trigger the key again.
Wherever your fault is you will see SOME voltage. Anything more than about .2 volts is cause for concern.
The engine won't even crank below about 9 volts, let alone crank fast enough for a diesel to start.
I just do the easy to probe places first and it is almost always a bolted connection, but CABLES can fail where the terminals connect to the wires as well.
The final probing place is the big pigtail going from the starter mounted solenoid INTO the motor. This braided copper wire has been known to corrode off locally because this is the salt/rust belt. Luckily, we still have ONE (only) local electrical repair place that has OE Bosch parts and can take any starter apart and fix what is wrong in about 30 minutes while I wait. One reason why I have been driving a VW diesel almost continuously for the last 30 years.
And some excellent support from a couple people on this list and others.
_________________
Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home

[ndorian]

I do have a digital multimeter and have tried some of what you suggested. Thanks for the feedback on what else to try.

[Alan Brase]

[ndorian]

I am trying to replace the starter. It seems that the clutch slave cylinder mount shares a bolt with the starter. I can't seem to find any info on this but can I loosen the other end of the bracket for the cylinder and safely move it out of the way to remove the starter? I don't want to break anything. Thanks

[ndorian]

I just found a post saying where I can remove lower bolt on brace and get clearance. Sorry. Thanks M. Ward.

[ndorian]

In looking at wiring diagrams and pictures of other ignition pigtails I only see a single 8-10ga wire going from the pigtail directly to the starter solenoid. Terminal 30 I believe. I have not seen a smaller red and black wire also tied into that terminal. It looks stock though. Is it normal to have that smaller red/blk wire? Thanks

[crazyvwvanman]

The 83 diesel wiring diagram shows 2 red/black wires to the same pin of the switch socket.
A big one for the starter solenoid.
A small one to the brake warning light circuit.

Mark

[ndorian]

Thanks.

[ndorian]

So now it's nothing but clock power, turn on anything else un-key related and clock dies. I am also reading on multi meter 12v at the red wire at ignition pigtail. Then when I try to jump red wire to red blk. wire I get less than a volt. Or when I turn on parking lights, less than a volt. I disconnect jumper and voltage goes to 6 or so and works its way back to 12 in a minute or less. I am looking for the main power wire to the fuse box. Seems that it is in the #1 position, all the way on the right at the bottom row of tabs. Some diagrams showed it in #9 position but that is a jumper on mine.

[ndorian]

I have replaced a good battery with a new battery, a good starter with a rebuilt starter, I kept the old bigger bosch unit for a spare as well as the battery. I replaced the ground strap at battery and trans. The starter jumps from the Ford solenoid every time. Battery is kept on 3v charge almost all the time.

[ndorian]

I found the power wire feeding the fuse box. It reads 13.6. The ignition red wire meanwhile is reading between 6-8, it won't go back to 12v this time. I see that where the ignition wire tabs into the fuse box is right next to where to feeder wire from the battery connects. I think I read where the two are supposed to be bonded. May try a jumper across the terminals. But, wondering about the load reduction relay as well. I have read many threads that say that it won't create a no crank issue, but still I wonder.

[ndorian]

New ground strap at transmission nose.

[crazyvwvanman]

Your current symptoms are pretty clear.
There is a major flaw in the electrical connection between the battery and the dash wiring.
There is a single largish red wire that is supposed to connect from the battery + clamp to the back of the dash fuse panel at fuse 8 or 9, one or the other.

This photo from the gallery is like what you should see at your panel.
Look carefully to notice that one of the grouped red wires is slightly larger than the others. That is the power wire from the battery.
That end of fuse positions 7,8,9 are tied together and always hot from the battery, fed power by that single red wire. From there the power spreads out, like to the headlight switch and the ignition switch, etc.
Since you said you are losing all power at those fuses when you turn anything on the problem has to be upstream from those fuses.

For testing you could run a FUSED wire from the battery + post to the fuse panel 7,8,9 cluster and see if that improves things. 20-30 amp fuse should be ok, at battery end of a #10 or #12 wire.

The other half of the power circuit to the dash is the NEGATIVE path.
Because you have a factory diesel your tranny nose mount ground wire is part of the dash wiring power path. Not just the ground cable itself but the nose bracket and bolts, along with the tranny case connections to the nose mount bracket and to the engine.
Again for testing you could run a new ground wire from the battery NEGATIVE to the van body metal to see if the dash wiring power loss symptom changes. Half of a set of jumper campers could do this job.

Mark

[?Waldo?]

Ndorian states that running a jumper to the sense connection on the extra Ford solenoid (hot start solenoid) results in the engine consistently cranking. For the diesels, the chassis and ground path from chassis to drivetrain is not part of the cranking circuit, correct? Mark, am I right in thinking that if there is a single issue, then the issue must be with the main power supply to the fuse panel and not the ground side?

[crazyvwvanman]

I agree that the most likely single cause is the one red wire connection path from the battery to the fuse panel.

My mentioning of the tranny nose ground functional difference is to relate that to voltage measurements taken at the dash fuse panel. Those dash measurements may depend on the tranny nose ground in a way that front battery vans wouldn't.

Mark

[ndorian]

So there's no way that it's some other circuit that runs through the fuse panel or the panel itself? I am going to the hardware store now to get 8 ga wire to make a good jumper cable to test power to fuse box wire. That wire runs through the engine bay relay/fuse box correct? I believe it feeds a couple other wires in there at a terminal post.

[ndorian]

I tried the ground wire to body cable first and it made no difference. I then tried the hot wire jumper from battery to fuse box. Everything came alive! I don't have headlights now, only high beams when I pull the lever, but I think that may be the hi beam switch (38 yrs old). The van even cranked but didn't catch quickly like it always does so I let off. That brings me to this point : do the glow plugs or relay interfere with the main power wire to the fuse box?